IRC log of i18n on 2024-03-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:47:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:47:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-irc
14:47:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
14:47:34 [addison]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:47:37 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:47:46 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20240314T150000/
14:47:46 [agendabot]
clear agenda
14:47:46 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda Review
14:47:46 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Items
14:47:48 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share
14:47:50 [agendabot]
agenda+ RADAR Review
14:47:52 [agendabot]
agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:47:55 [agendabot]
agenda+ I18N Glossary
14:47:57 [agendabot]
agenda+ Discontinuing simple-ruby
14:47:59 [agendabot]
agenda+ AOB?
14:48:05 [addison]
agenda+ New lreq doc format
14:48:10 [addison]
agenda+ Old version of LTLI
14:51:56 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
14:53:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:55:24 [addison]
present+ Addison
15:02:28 [xfq]
scribe: xfq
15:02:34 [xfq]
present+
15:02:39 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:03:55 [xfq]
present+ r12a, Bert, atsushi, JcK
15:04:22 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:04:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:32 [addison]
agenda?
15:05:19 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:05:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:22 [addison]
gb, list open actions
15:05:23 [gb]
Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #80, #79, #78, #77, #76, #75, #74, #72, #68, #53, #43, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #8, #7, #4
15:05:29 [addison]
#80
15:05:30 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/80 -> Action 80 reply to Lisa about A11Y-I18N CG proposal (on aphillips) due 2024-03-14
15:05:46 [addison]
#79
15:05:47 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79 -> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
15:05:57 [xfq]
addison: will do #80 today
15:06:04 [addison]
#78
15:06:05 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78 -> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
15:06:20 [xfq]
... #79, I'll goto find the issues for next month's call
15:06:22 [addison]
#77
15:06:23 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 -> Action 77 create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in action 73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07
15:06:32 [xfq]
... #78, will discuss later
15:06:43 [addison]
#76
15:06:45 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76 -> Action 76 propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
15:06:55 [xfq]
r12a: #77, not done yet
15:07:00 [addison]
#75
15:07:00 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 -> Action 75 work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29
15:07:22 [addison]
#74
15:07:23 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/74 -> Action 74 ask korean folks about text-autospace and hangul (on xfq) due 2024-02-27
15:07:44 [addison]
close #74
15:07:46 [gb]
Closed -> issue #74 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/74
15:07:54 [addison]
#72
15:07:54 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/72 -> Action 72 update specdev to match string-meta with string/block direction as appropriate (on aphillips) due 2024-02-22
15:08:10 [addison]
#68
15:08:11 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/68 -> Action 68 follow up with florian about testing with kindle (on aphillips) due 2024-01-25
15:08:21 [addison]
#53
15:08:21 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/53 -> Action 53 come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support for generic font families (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2023-11-01
15:08:28 [addison]
#43
15:08:28 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18
15:08:40 [addison]
#35
15:08:41 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30
15:08:47 [addison]
#33
15:08:48 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
15:08:58 [addison]
#18
15:08:59 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) due 18 Jul 2023
15:09:04 [addison]
#16
15:09:06 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024
15:09:10 [addison]
#12
15:09:11 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
15:09:15 [addison]
#11
15:09:16 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023
15:09:23 [addison]
#8
15:09:23 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
15:09:27 [addison]
#7
15:09:27 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
15:09:39 [addison]
#5
15:09:40 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> CLOSED Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a) due 25 Jul 2023
15:09:46 [addison]
#4
15:09:47 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023
15:10:22 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:10:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:10:41 [xfq]
r12a: I will try and remember to do #4 next week
15:11:57 [xfq]
Bert: xfq sent me an email about the history of i18n activity
15:12:19 [xfq]
... I'm collecting the dates
15:12:35 [xfq]
addison: I'll be interested to see what you come up with
15:12:49 [xfq]
... many happenings dating to the late nineties in the group
15:13:19 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:13:19 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:13:33 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:14:29 [xfq]
addison: we have a new request
15:14:36 [xfq]
... Privacy Principles
15:14:59 [xfq]
... this might be super amusing
15:15:28 [xfq]
... 'be sure you never do anything to allow locale to be stripped off'
15:15:41 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:15:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:16:21 [addison]
agenda?
15:16:37 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 5
15:16:37 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:16:53 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
15:17:22 [xfq]
addison: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1835 is actually a PR related to a comment that we have
15:17:24 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1835 -> Issue 1835 Explicitly specify binary encoding for string truncation (by w3cbot) [pending] [tracker] [s:webauthn]
15:17:58 [xfq]
... related to truncation
15:18:04 [xfq]
... that's still in progress
15:18:04 [addison]
w3c/i18n-activity#1834
15:18:05 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1834 -> Issue 1834 Clarify note on single character of mi as italic (by himorin) [pending] [s:mathml]
15:18:10 [xfq]
... you're welcome to look at that
15:18:31 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1834
15:18:41 [xfq]
atsushi: it's a minor point within their note
15:19:20 [xfq]
... This transformation is via `text-transform: math-auto` and is to apply the italic table but not applying italic style
15:19:28 [xfq]
... but it's not clear from their spec
15:19:45 [xfq]
addison: do they mean single character?
15:19:55 [xfq]
... they say 'single letter'
15:20:12 [xfq]
... but I can imagine the letter having an accent on it
15:20:20 [xfq]
... and therefore be 2 code points
15:20:35 [xfq]
atsushi: this is the point I want to discuss with the group
15:20:49 [xfq]
addison: what is 'italic table'?
15:21:03 [xfq]
https://www.w3.org/TR/2023/WD-mathml-core-20231127/#italic-mappings
15:21:37 [xfq]
atsushi: it's common in maths and physics
15:21:47 [xfq]
... similar character used in mathematical formula
15:21:51 [xfq]
addison: OK
15:22:00 [xfq]
... and they have a mapping for the Unicode code points
15:22:17 [xfq]
... they need to clarify this
15:23:09 [xfq]
addison: anybody else got a comment?
15:23:15 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 7
15:23:15 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- Discontinuing simple-ruby -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:23:20 [xfq]
... since we're gonna do a full review when Bert is done
15:23:25 [xfq]
... we can hold this for now
15:23:37 [xfq]
addison: we have a request from Kida-san
15:23:58 [xfq]
... the JL-TF wants to stop maintaining it
15:24:22 [xfq]
... and want to publish effectively a tombstone version of it
15:24:37 [xfq]
... with some sort of box in it that says we've stopped developing this
15:24:47 [xfq]
... florian sent a reply to that request
15:24:57 [xfq]
... saying you don't wanna kill the document
15:25:08 [addison]
https://www.w3.org/TR/simple-ruby/
15:25:09 [xfq]
... there might be valuable content
15:25:17 [xfq]
... it is a note track document
15:25:34 [xfq]
... and the note track does not have a discontinued state like the rec track
15:25:58 [xfq]
... but we have other notes that we published in the past that have some sort of big red box at the top saying
15:26:08 [xfq]
... this isn't being maintained anymore
15:26:29 [addison]
q+
15:26:32 [xfq]
... Unicode in XML is an example
15:26:45 [addison]
ack next
15:27:02 [xfq]
... the document is a subset of ruby that we said is simple
15:28:01 [xfq]
... it can say 'here is a description of simple ruby, work is underway to provide a more complete model'
15:28:12 [xfq]
... if something else comes out later
15:28:22 [xfq]
... we can come back and change what that note says
15:28:50 [xfq]
... 'this is now a historical document. look over here for more info'
15:28:53 [addison]
action: addison: write to kida-san about publishing simple-ruby as note with appropriate status text
15:29:00 [gb]
Created -> action #81 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/81
15:29:00 [xfq]
JcK: that seems right to me
15:29:02 [addison]
agenda?
15:29:11 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:29:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:29:18 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 9
15:29:18 [Zakim]
agendum 9 -- New lreq doc format -- taken up [from addison]
15:29:25 [r12a]
https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html#h_lines_and_paragraphs
15:29:48 [xfq]
r12a: taking things a little further than I had last week
15:29:54 [r12a]
https://www.w3.org/TR/typography/#fonts
15:30:09 [xfq]
... I started putting the links to the orthography notes and other relevant documents into a list format
15:30:26 [xfq]
... and realized that actually we could do something quite useful here
15:30:45 [xfq]
... we have another document called the Language enablement index
15:30:58 [xfq]
... I don't know how many people actually look at that document
15:31:08 [xfq]
... but I certainly keep forgetting to update it
15:31:52 [xfq]
... so now I'm doing something similar in the lreq documents, and it allows more granular information or specific information that you can look up quite easily
15:32:04 [r12a]
https://www.w3.org/TR/typography/#fonts
15:32:11 [xfq]
... I think it's much easier to remember to update these links
15:32:35 [xfq]
... in the fonts section above
15:32:59 [xfq]
... forget about the Chinese and Hangul Layout requirements for the time being, I'll come back to that in a sec
15:33:24 [xfq]
... you have a list very much like we have in the Khmer document
15:33:55 [xfq]
... that would make it much easier to maintain the typography thing without duplicating work
15:34:17 [xfq]
... for clreq/jlreq/alreq, we may or may not add these list of links
15:34:41 [xfq]
... in which case they might still have some links in the typography index
15:34:57 [xfq]
... but what I'm talking about in particular here is for the new lreq documents
15:35:01 [xfq]
... like Khmer
15:35:19 [xfq]
... and Mongolian, Ethiopic, possibly Korean
15:35:51 [xfq]
... if you look at section 6.2 https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html#h_phrase
15:36:00 [xfq]
... it says 'See Ishida, Cambodian (Khmer) Orthography Notes/Phrase & section boundaries.'
15:36:12 [xfq]
... I don't think that's the best approach
15:36:22 [xfq]
addison: this looks automatable
15:36:32 [xfq]
r12a: a large part of it, yes
15:36:52 [xfq]
addison: a bunch of the links here are generic links
15:37:20 [xfq]
... and you could have a little piece of JSON to say here's the specific things
15:37:33 [xfq]
r12a: yes
15:37:36 [xfq]
... it's also easy to have a flat document
15:37:44 [xfq]
... from a template
15:38:02 [xfq]
... and then all you have to do is to add the labels into the right places
15:38:38 [xfq]
... that's actually one of the problems with the typography index at the moment is that the date is driven through JS
15:38:45 [xfq]
... as it's getting bigger
15:39:05 [xfq]
... it's becoming more of a problem to maintain the date in a separate file from the index page itself
15:39:06 [addison]
action: richard: publish khmer lreq with new format
15:39:08 [gb]
Created -> action #82 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/82
15:39:12 [xfq]
addison: any comments?
15:39:26 [xfq]
r12a: I propose that I complete the Khmer lreq document
15:39:31 [xfq]
... and then publish that
15:39:59 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 10
15:39:59 [Zakim]
agendum 10 -- Old version of LTLI -- taken up [from addison]
15:39:59 [xfq]
... will do similar thing to the Tibetan lreq
15:40:30 [xfq]
https://www.w3.org/International/core/langtags/
15:40:34 [addison]
xfq: I found an old version of LTLI via a search engine
15:40:43 [addison]
... this page ^^
15:40:50 [addison]
... was searching for 'language-range' on google
15:40:57 [addison]
... seems like an early draft version
15:41:15 [addison]
... since we have one on TR, propose we add a big red box pointing at LTLI
15:41:57 [xfq]
addison: if it weren't a cool URL, we would delete it with extreme prejudice
15:42:02 [xfq]
scribe+ addison
15:42:47 [xfq]
... but since it exists, we might even consider hollowing it and just have a big red box
15:42:57 [xfq]
... or a permanent redirect to LTLI
15:43:15 [xfq]
... I don't think this document serves any purpose except to confuse people
15:43:33 [xfq]
... this was a draft document
15:45:12 [addison]
action: xfq: replace the old core/langtags document with a redirect and some appropriate text blurb
15:45:14 [gb]
Created -> action #83 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/83
15:45:24 [addison]
agenda?
15:45:35 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
15:45:35 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- I18N Glossary -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:46:29 [xfq]
addison: we have definitions and some of them have similar
15:46:41 [xfq]
... but the nature of theirs and our glossary don't match
15:46:59 [xfq]
... I owe this group a more detailed analysis
15:47:14 [xfq]
... I think we want to do that sooner rather than later
15:47:25 [xfq]
... so that we have have a follow up discussion with them
15:47:42 [xfq]
... the key disconnect is that they're married to the JS string
15:47:51 [xfq]
... when they refer to code units and such
15:48:03 [xfq]
... we had a discussion with RDF-star about this
15:48:39 [xfq]
... @@ byte-wise truncation of HTTP headers
15:49:02 [xfq]
... when doing truncation the terminology in Infra doesn't quite match ours
15:49:07 [xfq]
... so that's the status
15:49:15 [xfq]
... I have a side thing
15:49:26 [xfq]
... we talked about a couple of PRs last time
15:49:33 [xfq]
... one of them is planes and blocks
15:52:03 [xfq]
... the other is variation selector
15:52:12 [atsushi]
+1
15:52:34 [xfq]
... should we merge the variation selector PR?
15:52:44 [xfq]
... let's merge it
15:52:44 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues
15:53:10 [addison]
w3c/i18n-glossary#70
15:53:10 [xfq]
addison: we have some issues open
15:53:10 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/70 -> Issue 70 Definition of cursive scripts (by xfq) [enhancement]
15:54:48 [xfq]
[xfq explains the issue]
15:55:03 [xfq]
addison: my comments was the existing text doesn't claim to be exhaustive
15:55:45 [xfq]
... but the problem is you have to always have an alert in your brain so when a new script emerges in the Unicode standard and it happens to be cursive
15:56:14 [xfq]
... you have to go back here and complete the list
15:56:38 [xfq]
... there may be other things already in Unicode that are not in that list
15:56:44 [addison]
w3c/i18n-glossary#51
15:56:45 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/51 -> Issue 51 About Tashkil : long vowel marks are called Madd. (by ntounsi) [enhancement]
15:56:45 [xfq]
addison: shall we leave it alone?
15:57:02 [xfq]
... do we need to say that the list is not exhaustive?
15:57:08 [xfq]
xfq: I'm OK with closing this issue with no changes
15:57:14 [xfq]
addison: OK
15:58:33 [xfq]
addison: #51 is a comment from Najib about long vowel marks
15:58:34 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/51 -> CLOSED Action 51 inform fuqiao and richard what to name the string-meta-2 repo (on aphillips) due 2023-10-12
15:58:40 [xfq]
... about Tashkil
15:58:55 [xfq]
... does somebody wanna take this on?
15:59:06 [xfq]
.... r12a, you provided a long comment about it
15:59:30 [xfq]
r12a: this is not a manual about how to write Arabic or anything like that
15:59:52 [xfq]
... I would have to read the current definition again and think about what Najib is adjusting
16:00:07 [xfq]
addison: is there a better home for some of this information
16:00:21 [xfq]
r12a: you find it everywhere you look
16:00:28 [xfq]
... Wikipedia and my orthography notes
16:00:37 [xfq]
... it's probably in alreq too
16:00:55 [xfq]
... which is another reason you don't necessarily need to put it there
16:01:45 [addison]
action: richard: follow up on i18n-glossary#51
16:01:46 [gb]
Created -> action #84 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/84
16:01:53 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
16:01:53 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:02:03 [r12a]
#84 note: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/51
16:02:03 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/51 -> Issue 51 About Tashkil : long vowel marks are called Madd. (by ntounsi) [enhancement]
16:02:04 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/84 -> Action 84 follow up on i18n-glossary#51 (on r12a) due 2024-03-21
16:02:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:02:46 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
16:02:46 [Zakim]
Present: Addison, xfq, r12a, Bert, atsushi, JcK
16:02:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JcK, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, r12a, atsushi, Rachael, hadleybeeman, alastairc, koji, Mek_, astearns, xfq, eemeli, gb, fantasai, csarven, mbinzo, imlostlmao, Github,
16:02:46 [Zakim]
... SintayewGashaw, BoKilgore, MojGraph, James1, clafase, matrix638, joraboi445, gonzu_15, florian, cwilso, Bert, hsivonen, agendabot