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20:02:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-ecosystem-funding-irc
20:02:39 <tpac-breakout-bot> RRSAgent, do not leave
20:02:40 <tpac-breakout-bot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:02:41 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: How We Fund the Web Ecosystem
20:02:41 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: Brian Kardell, Robin Berjon, Eric Meyer
20:02:41 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/20
20:02:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ecosystem-funding
20:02:42 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
20:02:42 <Zakim> agenda cleared
20:02:42 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
20:02:43 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
20:02:43 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
20:02:43 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
20:02:43 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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20:02:45 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
20:02:45 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
20:02:45 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
20:02:45 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
20:02:46 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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20:53:51 <bkardell_> hola
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20:54:02 <emeyer> Howdy howdy howdy.
20:54:30 <emeyer> Have we invited Zakim yet?
20:54:50 <koalie> yep
20:54:57 <emeyer> Thank you!
20:55:03 <koalie> RRSAgent, pointer?
20:55:03 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-ecosystem-funding-irc#T20-55-03
20:55:05 <robin> hullo!
20:55:07 <robin> present+
20:55:15 <koalie> not sure we've instructed the bots; checking
20:55:29 <robin> is everyone READY TO GET RICH QUICK!!!???
20:55:32 <koalie> yep
20:55:40 <koalie> sorry, YEP!
20:55:52 <koalie> (my "yep" was in response to have we instructed the bots)
20:56:17 <koalie> Zakim, agenda?
20:56:17 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
20:56:18 <Zakim> 1. Pick a scribe [from tpac-breakout-bot]
20:56:18 <Zakim> 2. Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy [from tpac-breakout-bot]
20:56:18 <Zakim> 3. Goal of this session [from tpac-breakout-bot]
20:56:18 <Zakim> 4. Discussion [from tpac-breakout-bot]
20:56:20 <Zakim> 5. Next steps / where discussion continues [from tpac-breakout-bot]
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21:00:31 <koalie> present+ Coralie
21:00:40 <emeyer> present+
21:00:43 <bkardell_> Present+
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21:00:51 <cwilso> present+
21:01:21 <matatk> present+
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21:02:54 <robin> do consider people's mental health before speaking up though
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21:03:03 <Ian> present+
21:03:03 <Ian> agenda?
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21:03:12 <Ian> zakim, take up item 1
21:03:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Pick a scribe -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
21:03:14 <matatk> CEPC: https://www.w3.org/policies/code-of-conduct/
21:03:15 <Ian> EricM volunteers
21:03:21 <matatk> Antitrust policy: https://www.w3.org/policies/antitrust-2024/
21:03:21 <Ian> zakim, close item 1
21:03:21 <Zakim> agendum 1, Pick a scribe, closed
21:03:22 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:03:22 <Zakim> 2. Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy [from tpac-breakout-bot]
21:03:26 <Ian> zakim, take up item 2
21:03:26 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
21:03:29 <Ian> (See above)
21:03:33 <Ian> zakim, close item 2
21:03:33 <Zakim> agendum 2, Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy, closed
21:03:35 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:03:35 <Zakim> 3. Goal of this session [from tpac-breakout-bot]
21:03:36 <Ian> zakim, take up item 3
21:03:37 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Goal of this session -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
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21:04:36 <emeyer> scribenick emeyer
21:04:40 <dbaron> Present+
21:04:46 <dbaron> ScribeNick: emeyer
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21:04:52 <Ian> zakim, who's here?
21:04:52 <Zakim> Present: robin, Coralie, emeyer, bkardell_, cwilso, matatk, Ian, dbaron
21:04:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see plh, dbaron, rbyers, jaylett, Ian, andreubotella, fscholz, cwilso, matatk, Dingwei_, unextro, caribou, emeyer, koalie, robin, davidjustice, bkardell_, tidoust, Zakim,
21:04:54 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent
21:05:01 <plh> present+
21:05:06 <emeyer> Thanks, dbaron.  I always get the syntax slightly wrong.
21:05:21 <andreubotella> present+
21:05:50 <emeyer> bkardell_ (delivers short presentation; slides: https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/files/14578466/How_We_Fund_The_Web.pdf)
21:05:52 <Ian> present+ Rick_Byers, Ondrej_Pokorny, Michael_Kleber, David_Justice, Seth_Dobbs
21:06:23 <Ian> present+ James_Aylett, Deyan_Ginev, Florian_Scholz, Jeffrey_Yasskin
21:07:35 <Ian> present+ Don_Marti
21:10:32 <Ian> present+ LUke_Warlow
21:11:51 <emeyer> robin (delivers second half of the presentation)
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21:13:39 <emeyer> bkardell_: (opens queue)
21:14:11 <emeyer> bkardell_: There are things like collectives available already
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21:14:49 <emeyer> bkardell_: Igalia do a lot of helping with prioritization management and figuring out how to get work done on things that aren’t prioritized by vendors
21:14:57 <Ian> q+
21:15:02 <rbyers> q+
21:15:09 <emeyer> …collectives don’t provide all the needed funding, so how do we get there?
21:15:22 <emeyer> Ian: Could you share an example of how a thing has happened?
21:15:29 <bkardell_> https://opencollective.com/mathml-core-support
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21:16:04 <emeyer> bkardell_: You can set these up however you want, but most elect their own steering committees
21:16:11 <emeyer> …It’s pretty easy to set up
21:16:30 <emeyer> …a collective and start colelcting omney toward a goal
21:16:41 <emeyer> …The trick is a way of governing the money and how it’s sent out
21:16:55 <emeyer> …It’s really hard to incentivize people to contribute
21:17:16 <emeyer> …Could be done as one big fund, a lot of small funds
21:17:18 <robin> here's a strategy for bigger levels (draft) https://darobin.github.io/wise/
21:17:33 <emeyer> rbyers: Could you say a little about how CSS Grid was funded?
21:17:53 <emeyer> bkardell_: Sure; Bloomberg Tech funded Igalia to implement Grid in two browsers
21:18:03 <emeyer> …It’s not the only example like that, but it’s one of the big ones
21:18:18 <emeyer> …It does show how browser makers aren’t the only ones to fund development
21:18:33 <andreubotella> q+
21:18:38 <emeyer> …We need omre ways to get people to see that important work can get done, you just have to invest time and/or money to make it happen
21:18:46 <Ian> ack rbyers
21:18:51 <bkardell_> ack rbyers
21:19:17 <emeyer> rbyers: Speaking as a citizen of the web and not my employer, I’ve been trying to tackle this for at least Chromium
21:19:33 <emeyer> …Maybe we want to talk about the forces that pressure toward monoculture
21:19:44 <emeyer> …I’m worried about other browsers’ abilities to be viable long-term
21:19:56 <emeyer> …I think most people on the Chromium team want to see other browsers succeed
21:20:27 <emeyer> …When we make Google products fast, and encourage businesses to put better content on the web, that helps fund Chrome
21:20:41 <emeyer> …Default search is an important part of this
21:21:00 <emeyer> …Chromium was always there to spur competition, it was never our intent to take over the ecosystem
21:21:25 <emeyer> …One thing we’re doing is starting a Chromium commons fund
21:21:40 <emeyer> …A lot of us here agree that it’s not good to have everything funded by Google
21:21:53 <emeyer> …We have some investors willing to put in non-trivial amounts of money
21:22:33 <emeyer> …We’ve been talking about this with others as the lack of diversity in funding sources is not good for the long-term health of the ecosystem
21:22:34 <robin> q+ to talk about diversity of funding sources
21:23:04 <emeyer> bkardell_: You can’t really use commits to measure contribution, but it is a measure we have
21:23:41 <bkardell_> ack andreubotella
21:24:34 <emeyer> andreubotella: In terms of the projects Igalia works on, it seems like there are projects funded by browser makers
21:24:49 <emeyer> …The money from those organizations seems to come mostly from search revenue
21:24:56 <emeyer> …Maybe not as much as Apple, hard to say
21:25:07 <emeyer> s/as Apple/at Apple/
21:25:23 <rbyers> FYI Chromium commits by organization over time: https://chrome-commit-tracker.arthursonzogni.com/organizations/commits/?repositories=chromium&organizations=AMD,ARM,Apple,Google,Igalia,Individuals,Intel,LLVM,Microsoft,Opera,Samsung,Unknown,WebKit&grouping=quarterly&colors=organizations&kind=author&chart=line&dates=2000-01-01,2024-03-12&others
21:26:34 <emeyer> –(missed by the scribe, apologies)
21:27:17 <koalie> scribe+
21:27:18 <emeyer> …We have talked in other places about we can have browser charge for usage after so many years of being free
21:27:23 <emeyer> …I don’t think that can happen
21:27:37 <bkardell_> q?
21:27:46 <bkardell_> ack robin
21:27:46 <Zakim> robin, you wanted to talk about diversity of funding sources
21:27:49 <koalie> Andreu_Botella: We could charge by browsers but after years of browsers being free, I'm not sure [it'd work]
21:27:52 <koalie> scribe-
21:27:57 <emeyer> robin: RIck brough up an important issue, funding diversity
21:28:06 <emeyer> …It’s worse than most people realize
21:28:28 <emeyer> …Almost all of MOzilla’s money comes from search revenue, Apple gets way more from Google than they put into the browser
21:28:41 <bkardell_> q+
21:28:44 <emeyer> …The way search is integrated into browsers is likely to create intervention
21:28:56 <emeyer> …What if it becomes illegal to bind search and payments?
21:28:58 <cwilso> q+
21:29:10 <emeyer> …Shoudl that happen, we’d need to replace a whole lot of money, and could happen overnight
21:29:22 <emeyer> …We do need better and more solutions
21:29:31 <koalie> q+
21:29:43 <emeyer> …We need to seriously look at taking ownership as a community of the search royalty system
21:30:00 <emeyer> …We’re in charge of infrastructure for 5 billion people; we should act like it
21:30:12 <bkardell_> q-
21:30:12 <emeyer> …Please take the extra step of thinking more ambitiously
21:30:13 <robin> q?
21:30:16 <bkardell_> ack cwilso
21:30:37 <emeyer> cwilso: I totally agree with Robin about the world being different 20 years ago
21:30:48 <emeyer> …We shouldn’t expect things to stay static
21:31:13 <emeyer> …The search engine wasn’t the original motivator, it was wanting to be the best connection to a new medium
21:31:35 <emeyer> …The funding from search revenue is positive in that it gets a funding source from the entire web, not just those who choose to donate
21:31:53 <bkardell_> +1
21:32:02 <emeyer> …The challenge is that we built something like a public utility but it isn’t funded or managed like one, and probably won’t morph that far
21:32:20 <robin> q+ to challenge the idea that it shouldn't be a public utility, for some value of "public"
21:32:20 <emeyer> …We do need to figure out how to keep the ecosystem healthier than it is
21:32:28 <koalie> q- later
21:32:31 <emeyer> …A diverse ecosystem of engines is important
21:32:35 <bkardell_> ack robin
21:32:35 <Zakim> robin, you wanted to challenge the idea that it shouldn't be a public utility, for some value of "public"
21:32:53 <cwilso> q+
21:32:57 <emeyer> robin: It does start to feel like a public utility if we do it right
21:33:01 <koalie> q- later
21:33:09 <emeyer> …I challenge the idea that it shouldn’t be a public utility
21:33:24 <emeyer> …Utilities worldwide are not always like US utilities
21:33:44 <emeyer> …If you look at rural electrification programs, there are a lot of rural co-ops that are owned by those who use the power
21:33:51 <emeyer> …Those have very interesting qualities
21:33:57 <kleber> q+
21:34:05 <emeyer> …So we don’t have to think of public utilities as state-owned
21:34:12 <jaylett> (also some rural internet provision)
21:34:13 <bkardell_> ack cwilso
21:34:16 <emeyer> …I think we can start to talk about utilities in a new light
21:34:45 <emeyer> cwilso: Agree with the point that the web should be for the good of the public, not corporations or large donors
21:35:11 <emeyer> …Too often, public value is equated to government control
21:35:18 <kleber> q-
21:35:21 <emeyer> …I like the example of rural electrification
21:35:44 <emeyer> …I used to live in a place that had water provided that way, and maintaining infrastructure was hard
21:36:16 <emeyer> …The challenge is how we colelct from everyone; we don’t have the example of paying a fee, as to electric or water providers
21:36:20 <bkardell_> q+
21:36:32 <emeyer> …Compare to the expansion of connectivity and how that fed into governments
21:36:33 <bkardell_> ack koalie
21:37:13 <emeyer> koalie: The mechanisms or paradigm we use is germane to the efforts that died in the context of web monetization
21:37:32 <emeyer> …Web monetization was about funding individual endeavors
21:37:41 <emeyer> …Do we talk about these things individually because they never meet?
21:37:53 <emeyer> …Does what we decide for one use case apply to others?
21:38:08 <emeyer> rbyers: That is a really good point
21:38:21 <emeyer> …I’ve been working on web monetization for some time
21:38:41 <emeyer> …Interledger is experimenting with Igalia, and we’re glad to see that
21:38:51 <emeyer> …I’m skeptical that micropayments will work
21:39:07 <robin> q+ to mention that micropayments is likely the wrong use case for ILP
21:39:13 <emeyer> …I can imagine a future where there are equivalents to Netflix et. al but are decentralized
21:39:35 <emeyer> …Imagine that there was 4-5 content bundlers, similar to video streaming services
21:39:50 <kleber> q+
21:39:52 <bkardell_> ack bkardell_
21:40:00 <emeyer> …Can we imagine a web content streamer, such that the content streamers could be incentivized to invest?
21:40:26 <emeyer> bkardell_: A lot of the work Igalia does is for downstream stuff
21:40:49 <emeyer> …Things that use Chromium, WebKit, Gecko, to create products, either physical or software
21:41:01 <emeyer> …What they share in common is those products are bought, people pay for them
21:41:13 <emeyer> …The rrevenue source is from people buying a thing
21:41:31 <emeyer> …The money flows downhill, going back into the platform
21:41:52 <emeyer> …Examples like rural electrification are good; people pay in and get something
21:42:00 <emeyer> …So there needs to be a way for people to pay in
21:42:14 <emeyer> …As Robin says, if we can put a levee on those sources, that might be enough to pay
21:42:26 <robin> s/levee/levy/
21:42:29 <bkardell_> ack robin
21:42:31 <Zakim> robin, you wanted to mention that micropayments is likely the wrong use case for ILP
21:42:34 <emeyer> …We should take this opportunity to think about how to do this so it isn’t opaque
21:42:57 <emeyer> robin: Glad Rick mentioned micropayments; I think they’re the worst use case for Interledger
21:43:16 <emeyer> …The utility of paying for a single article is small
21:43:35 <emeyer> …But the ability to send small amounts of money without overhead is important
21:44:00 <emeyer> …In a social media system, the server has the ads, the recommendation engine, etc., and sends it all to the user as a package
21:44:25 <emeyer> …Imagine if the browser selects the ads, and gets paid for the ad, but uses some of that money to services that helped render that content on-screen
21:44:42 <emeyer> …You can start to imagine where search becomes an API instead of a web site
21:45:00 <emeyer> …YOu could have search presented by the browser in different ways, as long as you can make these small payments
21:45:20 <bkardell_> ack kleber
21:45:22 <emeyer> …And then you can take a fraction of that and use it to pay for the browser
21:45:41 <emeyer> kleber: I’m a fan of ads as a funding model
21:45:56 <emeyer> …The thing I think is valuable is that as a model, they’re shockingly progressive
21:46:10 <emeyer> …That is, stuff funded through advertising is funded by attacks on all commerce
21:46:12 <robin> https://nytimes.github.io/std-rhea/evil.jpg
21:46:56 <emeyer> …Things like micropaymetns and bundle fees are applying pressure in the wrong place
21:46:57 <koalie> [Chris Wilson departs]
21:46:58 <bkardell_> q+
21:47:25 <emeyer> …Places where people actually spend money is where I would love to see the funding come from
21:47:36 <emeyer> …Funding through search is one level of indirection away from that
21:48:02 <emeyer> …Google ends up as a central point of focus, but you’re still at least one level away from where things should be happening
21:48:23 <emeyer> …Amazon is closer, but they decided not to make a browser; isntead the put a lot of money into an app
21:48:38 <emeyer> …The closer you can get to where the money moves, the less you suffer middleman cuts
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21:49:06 <robin> I'm not sure that search is one step away — it's where the value of the web (included non-commercial) gets concentrated
21:49:09 <emeyer> …I don’t know if any of this makes things more progressive than they are today or closer to where the money moves
21:49:22 <koalie> q+
21:49:28 <bkardell_> ack bkardell_
21:49:32 <emeyer> …That’s separate than the problem of how to distribute funds, which I don’t have good answers for
21:49:50 <emeyer> robin: Let’s get the money first, then we can figure out how to distribute it
21:49:59 <emeyer> bkardell_: I want to hold up entertainment as both good and bad
21:50:22 <robin> https://darobin.github.io/garuda/ does mention taxing ads :)
21:50:25 <emeyer> …We have bundled things I can pay for and signal how much it’s worth to me to not have ads and access stores of content
21:50:40 <emeyer> …It would be nice to have a way to buy out of ads
21:50:58 <emeyer> robin: That’s where having the ability to see at the browser level to see how much is spent would be useful
21:51:10 <Ian> q?
21:51:17 <emeyer> …There are companies that say, “pay this much to remove ads”
21:51:37 <bkardell_> ack koalie
21:51:40 <emeyer> …If you could see a browser made ten cents from the New York Times, you could say “I’ll pay 20 cents and skip ads”
21:52:20 <emeyer> koalie: If there’s a way to make a system magic thing that belongs to the web and not to a search engine or advertisement, that is probably the direction to take
21:52:26 <Ian> zakim, take up item 5
21:52:26 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Next steps / where discussion continues -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
21:52:58 <emeyer> bkardell_: Thanks everyone!  Where should we continue this discussion?  Community Group, something else?
21:53:13 <kleber> Yes indeed, I see the appeal of "in-app payment system which takes a mandatory cut of all transactions"!  If the web could be funded when people buy something on Amazon that they saw from an influencer on TikTok, that would be a step in what seems like a good direction to me!
21:53:23 <emeyer> Ian: Earlier there was a document from Robin, the WISE document
21:53:31 <emeyer> …Is that too specific a place for next steps?
21:53:43 <emeyer> …It has the advantage of being a thing people can bounce ideas off of
21:54:00 <Ian> https://github.com/darobin/wise/
21:54:07 <emeyer> robin: I’m happy to have conversation there, or will bring the document to wherever we’re talking
21:54:10 <bkardell_> https://github.com/darobin/wise/
21:54:41 <emeyer> bkardell_: Let’s continue the immediate discussion on the GitHub for WISE, and decide there where we want to go with it
21:54:43 <jaylett> thanks everyone
21:54:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-ecosystem-funding-minutes.html Ian
21:55:27 <emeyer> Zakim, end meeting
21:55:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been robin, Coralie, emeyer, bkardell_, cwilso, matatk, Ian, dbaron, plh, andreubotella, Rick_Byers, Ondrej_Pokorny, Michael_Kleber,
21:55:30 <Zakim> ... David_Justice, Seth_Dobbs, James_Aylett, Deyan_Ginev, Florian_Scholz, Jeffrey_Yasskin, Don_Marti, LUke_Warlow
21:55:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:55:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-ecosystem-funding-minutes.html Zakim
21:55:36 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, emeyer; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
21:55:36 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ecosystem-funding
21:55:46 <emeyer> Oops.
21:56:15 <emeyer> zakim, excuse us
21:56:54 <emeyer> rrsagent, bye
21:56:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items