IRC log of rdf-star on 2024-03-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:54:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:54:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-irc
16:54:26 [ktk]
meeting: RDF-Star WG biweekly meeting
16:54:46 [ktk]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
16:54:47 [agendabot]
clear agenda
16:54:47 [agendabot]
agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: [1]
16:54:47 [agendabot]
agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion [2]
16:54:47 [agendabot]
agenda+ Charter Extension / Rechartering
16:54:47 [agendabot]
agenda+ W3C Breakout Day [3]
16:54:50 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [4]
16:54:52 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [5]
16:54:55 [agendabot]
agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [6]
16:54:57 [agendabot]
agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:55:03 [ktk]
Agenda?
16:55:07 [pfps]
present+
16:55:32 [pfps]
scribe+
16:57:07 [ktk]
present+
16:57:14 [ktk]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:57:20 [ktk]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:57:55 [eBremer]
eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:58:03 [ktk]
Regrets: doerthe, olaf
16:58:06 [tl]
tl has joined #rdf-star
16:58:47 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #rdf-star
16:59:02 [TallTed]
TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:59:36 [Dominik_T]
Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
16:59:40 [ktk]
FYI bot is already there, you can present
16:59:50 [ora]
ora has joined #rdf-star
17:00:19 [gtw]
present+
17:00:24 [enrico]
enrico has joined #rdf-star
17:00:41 [pchampin]
present
17:00:42 [enrico]
present+
17:00:44 [Dominik_T]
present+
17:01:03 [eBremer]
present+
17:01:08 [pfps]
zakim, who is here
17:01:08 [Zakim]
pfps, you need to end that query with '?'
17:01:11 [pfps]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:11 [Zakim]
Present: pfps, ktk, gtw, enrico, Dominik_T, eBremer
17:01:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see enrico, ora, Dominik_T, TallTed, fsasaki, tl, eBremer, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, gkellogg, AndyS, Tpt, ktk, pchampin, driib, csarven, gb, gtw, AnthonySpencer,
17:01:13 [Zakim]
... VladimirAlexiev, SintayewGashaw, Timothe, smoothsalt, joraboi445, rhiaro, agendabot
17:01:18 [pchampin]
pchampin has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG — Short Biweekly meeting — https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
17:01:23 [pchampin]
pchampin has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG — Short biweekly meeting — https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
17:01:24 [ora]
present+
17:01:30 [ora]
chair: ora
17:01:35 [pchampin]
present+
17:01:37 [Tpt]
present+
17:02:01 [niklasl]
niklasl has joined #rdf-star
17:02:03 [gkellogg]
present+
17:02:07 [niklasl]
present+
17:02:20 [TallTed]
TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG — 2024-03-07 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
17:02:22 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:02:29 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:02:30 [TallTed]
present+
17:02:30 [TallTed]
Zakim, agenda?
17:02:30 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
17:02:30 [Zakim]
1. Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: [from 1 via agendabot]
17:02:30 [Zakim]
2. Proposal for next week's discussion [from 2 via agendabot]
17:02:30 [Zakim]
3. Charter Extension / Rechartering [from agendabot]
17:02:30 [Zakim]
4. W3C Breakout Day [from 3 via agendabot]
17:02:31 [Zakim]
5. Review of open actions, available at [from 4 via agendabot]
17:02:31 [Zakim]
6. Review of pull requests, available at [from 5 via agendabot]
17:02:31 [Zakim]
7. Issue Triage, available at [from 6 via agendabot]
17:02:32 [Zakim]
8. Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting [from agendabot]
17:02:52 [tl]
present+
17:03:10 [AndyS]
present+
17:03:12 [pfps]
zakim, next agendum
17:03:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -- taken up [from 1]
17:03:20 [pfps]
https://www.w3.org/2024/02/22-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:03:27 [Souri]
Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:03:39 [pfps]
https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:03:46 [pfps]
ora: any comments or concerns about the minutes?
17:04:01 [draggett]
draggett has joined #rdf-star
17:04:07 [gtw]
"(MEETING TITLE)"?
17:04:08 [ktk]
PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2024-02-22
17:04:15 [Souri]
present+
17:04:15 [gkellogg]
+1
17:04:15 [niklasl]
+1
17:04:17 [eBremer]
+1
17:04:20 [TallTed]
previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/03/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:04:22 [tl]
+1
17:04:22 [TallTed]
next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/03/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:04:24 [Souri]
+1
17:04:30 [enrico]
+1
17:04:33 [Dominik_T]
+0 (absent)
17:04:35 [ktk]
+1
17:04:36 [gtw]
+1
17:04:36 [ora]
+1
17:04:38 [TallTed]
+1
17:04:42 [pfps]
zakim, who is here?
17:04:42 [Zakim]
Present: pfps, ktk, gtw, enrico, Dominik_T, eBremer, ora, pchampin, Tpt, gkellogg, niklasl, TallTed, tl, AndyS, Souri
17:04:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see draggett, Souri, niklasl, enrico, ora, Dominik_T, TallTed, fsasaki, tl, eBremer, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, gkellogg, AndyS, Tpt, ktk, pchampin, driib, csarven, gb, gtw,
17:04:44 [Zakim]
... AnthonySpencer, VladimirAlexiev, SintayewGashaw, Timothe, smoothsalt, joraboi445, rhiaro, agendabot
17:04:54 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:04:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:05:10 [ktk]
RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2024-02-22
17:05:29 [ktk]
PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2024-02-29
17:05:33 [gkellogg]
+1
17:05:34 [ora]
+1
17:05:36 [Dominik_T]
+1
17:05:36 [Tpt]
+1
17:05:37 [gtw]
+1
17:05:37 [ktk]
+1
17:05:38 [pchampin]
+1
17:05:40 [enrico]
+1
17:05:40 [tl]
+1
17:05:42 [niklasl]
+1
17:05:46 [pfps]
ktk: Pierre-Antoinne please fix title on minutes of 22nd
17:05:59 [ktk]
RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2024-02-29
17:05:59 [TallTed]
s/FYI bot is already there, you can present//
17:06:19 [pfps]
zakim, next agendum
17:06:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from 2]
17:06:31 [pfps]
ora: any ideas for next week?
17:07:03 [enrico]
q+
17:07:09 [ora]
ack enrico
17:07:25 [pfps]
enrico: have names been agreed on, for now
17:07:30 [pfps]
ora: yes
17:07:48 [niklasl]
Specifically `rdf:reifies`
17:07:49 [pchampin]
q+
17:07:54 [TallTed]
i/chair: ora/scribe: pfps
17:07:58 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:07:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:08:06 [pfps]
gregg: there were some concerns about terminology related to reification
17:08:28 [pfps]
andys: we need to have the documents updated to see how things flow
17:08:44 [ora]
ack pchampin
17:08:45 [pfps]
gregg: the Turtle document needs updating
17:09:36 [pfps]
pchampin: my understanding is that we will go ahead with some reification-related vocabulary
17:09:52 [AndyS]
q+
17:09:54 [pfps]
pchampin: it might be possible to not have much in concepts
17:10:05 [pfps]
ora: let's proceed with current terminology
17:10:06 [ora]
ack AndyS
17:10:37 [pfps]
andys: concepts doesn't have much on vocabulary so it is understandable that lists are not ther
17:10:54 [enrico]
q+
17:11:04 [pfps]
andys: the stuff related to embedded triples is different
17:11:10 [ora]
ack enrico
17:11:24 [pchampin]
regrets+ draggett
17:11:42 [pfps]
enrico: how about well-formedness?
17:11:50 [pfps]
ora: sound reasonable
17:12:11 [pfps]
ora: for next week - fallout from breakout day and well-formedness
17:13:08 [pchampin]
q+
17:13:09 [gkellogg]
q+
17:13:15 [pchampin]
q-
17:13:15 [pfps]
Zakim, next agendum
17:13:16 [ora]
ack pchampin
17:13:16 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pfps
17:13:18 [gkellogg]
q=
17:13:20 [gkellogg]
q-
17:13:25 [AZ]
AZ has joined #rdf-star
17:13:29 [AZ]
present+
17:13:35 [pfps]
Zakim, next agendum
17:13:35 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Charter Extension / Rechartering -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:42 [pfps]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Mar/0002.html
17:14:01 [pfps]
s/https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Mar/0002.html//
17:14:20 [pchampin]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pulls
17:14:30 [pchampin]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57
17:14:30 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57 -> Pull Request 57 Charter extension 2024-03 (by pchampin)
17:15:01 [pfps]
pchampin: I have made a PR to modify the charter, so far just to push the dates
17:16:04 [pfps]
pchampin: charter extensions are only for six months so a one year extension is a rechartering that needs a vote
17:16:38 [pfps]
pchampin: the recharter could include a one-year extension plus one year for maintenance
17:17:26 [pfps]
ora: asking for a six-month extension seems to be a simpler thing
17:17:41 [pfps]
pchampin: that would be optimistic but the WG could so decide
17:17:46 [pfps]
ora: any thoughts
17:18:01 [tl]
so we can have multiple six-months extensions?
17:18:30 [pfps]
andys: I don't know how much effort is required for rechartering. Is there a risk that the charter might be significantly modified?
17:19:23 [pfps]
pchampin: We would decide what to put in the new charter. There is a risk that members could request changes.
17:19:52 [pfps]
ora: is there is a risk that the rechartering would be denied?
17:20:22 [pfps]
andys: my worry is more about concerns that require changes, not about denial
17:20:47 [pfps]
gregg: can we ask for an extension and mention that we might need another?
17:21:02 [pfps]
andys: what is the history here?
17:21:13 [TallTed]
q+
17:21:28 [ora]
ack TallTed
17:21:57 [pfps]
tallted: extensions are less acceptable than they used to be
17:22:23 [pfps]
tallted: we should take the advice we have been given, i.e., recharter
17:22:55 [pchampin]
q+
17:23:02 [ora]
ack pchampin
17:24:13 [pfps]
pchampin: members have been more stringent, and the team has responded to this
17:24:44 [pfps]
tallted: the AC can always override team decisions so it might be better to go directly to them
17:26:02 [pfps]
gregg: there is no guarantee here but we are now making progress
17:26:27 [pfps]
gregg: my recollection was that the plan was to go into maintenance mode
17:26:40 [pchampin]
q+
17:26:48 [pfps]
tallted: living standard might be better than maintenance mode
17:26:49 [ora]
ack pchampin
17:27:11 [pfps]
tallted: living standard allows new features
17:27:32 [ktk]
+q
17:27:50 [ora]
ack ktk
17:27:55 [pfps]
pchampin: my view is that maintenance mode involves updates to a living standard
17:29:01 [pfps]
ktk: a rechartering allows us to adjust scope of the working group to better correspond to what is needed
17:29:22 [ktk]
https://www.w3.org/2022/08/rdf-star-wg-charter/
17:29:37 [pfps]
tallted: some aspects of the work that has already been done could also be documented
17:29:52 [pfps]
pchampin: the charter does mention all the documents
17:30:01 [gkellogg]
q+
17:30:06 [pfps]
pchampin: I would be careful about changing scope
17:30:20 [ora]
ack gkellogg
17:30:54 [pfps]
gregg: there was a WG discussion of the name early on
17:30:57 [pfps]
q+
17:31:06 [ora]
ack pfps
17:31:34 [ora]
STRAWPOLL: re-chartering rather than charter extension?
17:31:35 [pfps]
pfps: the old WG names did not correspond well with the names of the output documents
17:31:45 [pchampin]
+1
17:31:48 [pfps]
ora: let's do a straw poll
17:31:54 [gkellogg]
+1
17:31:56 [pfps]
0
17:32:00 [Tpt]
0
17:32:01 [AndyS]
+0 : either - defer to experts
17:32:02 [ora]
0
17:32:02 [AZ]
+0
17:32:03 [enrico]
0
17:32:04 [niklasl]
+0
17:32:06 [TallTed]
+1 recharter, +0.5 extension
17:32:06 [Souri]
0
17:32:07 [ktk]
+0
17:32:08 [tl]
+0
17:32:17 [eBremer]
+1
17:32:21 [Dominik_T]
+0
17:32:21 [gtw]
+0
17:33:10 [pfps]
ora: the chairs will discuss this issue
17:33:21 [pfps]
ktk: ... and come up with a proposal
17:33:23 [fsasaki]
present+
17:33:32 [pfps]
Zakim, next agendum
17:33:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- W3C Breakout Day -- taken up [from 3]
17:34:07 [pfps]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Mar/0002.html
17:34:13 [niklasl]
q+
17:34:18 [AndyS]
RDF-star , RDF1.2 -- https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/21
17:34:18 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/21 -> Issue 21 RDF-Star and RDF 1.2 (by rdfguy) [session]
17:34:22 [ora]
ack niklasl
17:34:32 [pfps]
ora: who wants to make a presentation?
17:34:46 [pfps]
niklasl: I can put together some slide
17:35:11 [pfps]
ora: I'll put together some slides and niklasl and I can collaborate
17:35:49 [pchampin]
https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/rdf-star/calendar/ gives the correct time in your own timezone
17:36:07 [ktk]
q+
17:36:08 [pfps]
ora: the US is switching to summer time this weeken and this changes meeting times for those who aren't switching (yet)
17:36:13 [ora]
ack ktk
17:37:05 [Souri]
+1 I'll be there (9am-10am ET, right?)
17:37:07 [pchampin]
I'll do my best, but I'll be in a train
17:37:12 [pfps]
ora: who will be there?
17:37:39 [pchampin]
Breakout session: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0fc23324-8bf1-47b8-b0cf-1f0f31befb09/
17:39:54 [pfps]
zakim, next agendum
17:39:54 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Review of open actions, available at -- taken up [from 4]
17:40:44 [TallTed]
Looks like a glitch in the W3 calendar. Some sub-events show both CUT and "reader's local time". Our sub-event only shows CUT. https://www.w3.org/calendar/breakouts-day-2024/breakout-sessions/
17:41:13 [gkellogg]
q+
17:41:17 [pchampin]
q+
17:41:30 [pfps]
https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
17:41:30 [pfps]
ora: we can talk about action items to fix up the vocabulary
17:41:44 [ora]
ack gkellogg
17:41:51 [pchampin]
q-
17:42:06 [pfps]
gregg: I've been proceeding and have some PRs lined up for this. There are others as well.
17:42:48 [pfps]
gregg: Perhaps we need something for vocabulary extensions.
17:43:11 [pfps]
gregg: Olaf has a PR for concepts.
17:43:21 [pchampin]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78
17:43:21 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78 -> Pull Request 78 Proposal to adapt the abstract syntax to option 3 (by hartig) [spec:substantive]
17:44:01 [pfps]
ora: looks good for now
17:44:12 [pfps]
gregg: SPARQL documents need to be updated
17:45:04 [pfps]
pfps: it looks like Semantics and Schema are the ones that need to be addressed
17:45:23 [pfps]
ora: there should be something in the What's New note.
17:45:44 [Souri]
q+
17:45:50 [ora]
ack Souri
17:45:52 [pfps]
gregg: something in RDF/XML seems indicated
17:46:24 [pfps]
souri: we may need distinction between old-style and new-style
17:46:43 [Souri]
atomic, new-style, well-formed, ...
17:46:53 [pfps]
ora: anything else
17:46:56 [niklasl]
+1 to e.g. atomic reification.
17:47:01 [pfps]
Zakim, next agendum
17:47:01 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 5]
17:47:07 [pchampin]
q+
17:47:22 [ora]
ack pchampin
17:47:23 [ora]
https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
17:47:57 [pfps]
pchampin: I looked at the PRs and I suggest how we represent triple terms in concrete syntax
17:48:16 [AndyS]
q+
17:48:19 [pchampin]
<( :s :p :o )>
17:48:45 [pfps]
pchampin: the current notation is <<>> - I suggest using <(...)>
17:48:54 [niklasl]
<(:s:p:o)> a :ValidURI . # ?
17:49:00 [ora]
ack AndyS
17:49:03 [AndyS]
<()> is a valid URI :-)
17:49:06 [pfps]
pchampin: this should be easy to parse and be less confusing
17:49:31 [pchampin]
I stand corrected, then
17:49:32 [niklasl]
(... rather common in wikipedia...)
17:49:42 [pfps]
andys: parentheses are legal in IRIs so there may be problems
17:49:44 [niklasl]
q+
17:49:56 [ora]
ack niklasl
17:49:58 [pfps]
pchampin: so my proposal won't work
17:50:23 [pfps]
niklasl: should we have a discussion
17:50:49 [pfps]
andys: if we go with <<(...)>> for now we can proceed and change afterwards
17:51:39 [pfps]
ora: sparql makes use of every possible ASCII bracket
17:51:56 [Souri]
<| ... |> allowed in URIs?
17:52:09 [ora]
q?
17:52:21 [niklasl]
<|:s:p:o|> a :InvalidURI . # hm.
17:53:15 [AndyS]
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3986#appendix-A
17:53:20 [pfps]
q+
17:53:32 [pfps]
ora: mobile phone display
17:53:36 [pfps]
q-
17:54:13 [pfps]
ora: RDF is a model is too new to dispose of right now
17:54:26 [pchampin]
https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/143
17:54:27 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/143 -> Pull Request 143 RDF is a model, not a format (by TallTed) [spec:editorial]
17:54:43 [pfps]
tallted: I think we can go ahead
17:54:47 [pfps]
ora: agreed
17:55:49 [pfps]
gregg: the concepts one is a gate on other PRs
17:56:00 [gkellogg]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78
17:56:00 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78 -> Pull Request 78 Proposal to adapt the abstract syntax to option 3 (by hartig) [spec:substantive]
17:56:30 [Souri]
Do we have a meeting tomorrow?
17:56:44 [pfps]
gregg: this adds the new way of thinking about embedded triples
17:56:55 [pfps]
andys: there are required changes on this PR
17:57:13 [pchampin]
q+
17:57:53 [pchampin]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80
17:57:54 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80 -> Issue 80 where are triple terms allowed (by pfps) [needs discussion] [spec:substantive]
17:58:08 [pfps]
tallted: the stuff that remains on #78 is covered by #80
17:58:09 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/80 -> CLOSED Action 80 configure the gb IRC bot to route actions to w3c/rdf-star-wg (on pchampin)
17:58:09 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/78 -> CLOSED Action 78 investigate hiccups in github actions (on pchampin) due 27 Jul 2023
17:58:36 [pfps]
andys: we need to have this point cleared up but can we proceed with #78 as is
17:58:38 [pchampin]
q-
17:58:53 [pfps]
andys: are pfps and tallted OK with this
17:58:58 [pfps]
tallted: fine by me
17:59:23 [pfps]
... but I want a reason
17:59:27 [pfps]
pfps: fine by me
17:59:59 [pfps]
ora: merge #78 so that other work can proceed
18:00:02 [pchampin]
+1
18:00:15 [TallTed]
to be clear -- fine to merge https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/78 and follow up in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80
18:00:16 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78 -> Pull Request 78 Proposal to adapt the abstract syntax to option 3 (by hartig) [spec:substantive]
18:01:17 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:01:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
18:04:48 [pchampin]
gkellogg, the echidna issue is about "quoted_ triple" and "asserted_triple" being not defined anymore, but still referenced by some parts of the doc
18:11:17 [pchampin]
gkellogg, just pushed a quick fix
18:11:22 [pchampin]
Zakim, bye
18:11:22 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been pfps, ktk, gtw, enrico, Dominik_T, eBremer, ora, pchampin, Tpt, gkellogg, niklasl, TallTed, tl, AndyS, Souri, AZ, fsasaki
18:11:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdf-star
18:11:25 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, bye
18:11:25 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items