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13:47:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:48:01 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:48:01 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2024-03-01: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2024Feb/0011.html
13:48:01 <ivan> Chair: wendy, tzviya
13:48:01 <ivan> Date: 2024-03-01
13:48:01 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2024Feb/0011.html
13:48:01 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
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14:00:13 <david_hall> #present
14:00:27 <gautierchomel> present+
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14:07:24 <ivan> scribe+ gautierchomel
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14:08:43 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2602
14:10:11 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: we contacted amazon on the issue, they responded being neutral.
14:10:45 <ivan> present+ hadrien
14:11:00 <tzviya> q?
14:11:03 <tzviya> present+
14:11:21 <ivan> q+
14:11:47 <tzviya> ack iv
14:11:53 <duga> duga has joined #pmwg
14:12:00 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg
14:12:03 <david_hall> q+
14:12:05 <Hadrien> present+
14:12:07 <duga> present+
14:12:31 <Hadrien> q+
14:13:04 <shiestyle> q+
14:13:04 <tzviya> ack david_hall
14:13:51 <gautierchomel> ivan: i have a quetsion after last week discussion. I understand the technical proposal in the PR may not be the best approach. Does the solution in the PR reflects current practices in implemetation or not? It is an important argument
14:14:08 <duga> q+
14:14:12 <gautierchomel> david_hall: I think yes
14:14:31 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: in japan, not only amazon, also major Reading system vendors.
14:15:32 <gautierchomel> david_hall: what would be process to write a new specification?
14:15:41 <gautierchomel> ivan: that would mean a new charter.
14:15:52 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
14:16:39 <gpellegrino> q+
14:16:42 <tzviya> q+ to talk about business needs v technical needs
14:18:57 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: originaly webtoons were invented in Korea, then adopted in Japan, China, and elsewhere. In France they meet with traditional "Bande Dessine" who are not using EPUB, they prefer other formats. I would like to have someone from Korea in this discussion. I know that there's a new format being used there, for an ISBN related issue, they considered EPUB and went on another solution. We are missing the overall picture.
14:19:00 <tzviya> ack shiestyle
14:20:32 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: this PR approach is not the best one to me, but as japan is the biggest market for webtoons, EPUB based webtoon is used.
14:20:37 <gautierchomel> br
14:20:54 <shiestyle> ack duga
14:22:45 <gautierchomel> duga: this is a change to allow EPUB to be used for webtoon. Using different format is a great option, but if someone distrbutes webtoons as EPUB. We shall accept different formats.
14:22:50 <tzviya> ack gpellegrino
14:24:21 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: we are not getting to consensus. As previously suggested, should'nt we move to community group to get more incubation work?
14:24:35 <ivan> q+
14:24:39 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:24:41 <ivan> ack tzviya
14:24:41 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about business needs v technical needs
14:24:57 <tzviya> ack next
14:25:45 <Hadrien> q+
14:25:53 <gautierchomel> ivan: the change proposed offer an aditional way of displaying fixed layout. We may see that angle, not a webtoon specific one.
14:25:55 <tzviya> ack next
14:26:45 <duga> q+
14:26:51 <david_hall> q+
14:27:32 <gautierchomel> AvneeshSingh: is it so important to get it in the rec now? we could start with a community report with what's inside the PR as a starting point to further collect feedback on uses. Would it be an acceptable proposal?
14:27:41 <tzviya> ack h
14:28:10 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: I agree with Gregorio and Avneesh propoasl, a wider group discussion would be good.
14:29:06 <shiestyle> q+
14:29:47 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: it's problematic for reading system implemtation as it may break things. we're introducing complexity not necesary. That complexity will be on reading system developpers shoulders.
14:30:20 <tzviya> ack duga
14:30:50 <Hadrien> q+
14:31:13 <gautierchomel> duga: we went community group one year ago, nothing happened. Japan moved, they are producing and consuming that way. It's late for incubation.
14:31:45 <tzviya> ack david_hall
14:31:45 <gautierchomel> duga: I agree this is not the best property to use, it was not designed for it, but it works.
14:32:18 <tzviya> ack shiestyle
14:32:24 <gautierchomel> david_hall: i see uses out of the webtoon context
14:32:35 <tzviya> 1 to david_hall
14:32:50 <tzviya> s/1 to david_hall /+1 to david_hall
14:34:04 <gautierchomel> shiestyle:  if we don't have any approach, maybe even japanese market will not accept EPUB for webtoons. Time is important.
14:34:05 <david_hall> q+
14:34:07 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
14:35:09 <tzviya> q+ to ask shiestyle to clarify who he represents
14:36:37 <tzviya> ack david_hall
14:37:12 <tzviya> ack me
14:37:12 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask shiestyle to clarify who he represents
14:37:13 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: if EPUB is not the right format and we need to twist it's arm for that, it's not a good option. Again, we need a larger group. Different extensions and property have been used in the past, I see no difference today. It can still be used withou being in the specification. Is it because Apple or Amazone will use them?
14:37:16 <duga> q+
14:38:00 <shiestyle> q+
14:38:17 <gautierchomel> tzviya: for consensus, the question is can you live with it.
14:38:30 <tzviya> ack shiestyle
14:40:24 <tzviya> ack duga
14:40:58 <gautierchomel> duga: we need to do that because actually the way they use this property is illegal, we have to fix that.
14:41:29 <tzviya> Proposal: Adopt PR #2602
14:41:34 <tzviya> +1
14:41:36 <david_hall> +1
14:41:44 <duga> +1
14:41:45 <George> 0
14:41:46 <gpellegrino> 0
14:41:48 <Hadrien> -1
14:41:49 <toshiakikoike> 0
14:41:51 <shiestyle> +1
14:41:51 <CharlesL> 0
14:41:52 <ivan> 0.5
14:41:55 <MasakazuKitahara_> 0
14:42:37 <AvneeshSingh> 0
14:42:44 <gautierchomel> -1
14:43:19 <CharlesL> scribe+
14:43:55 <CharlesL> gautierchomel: I don't have enough information. I need more time / information.
14:44:14 <CharlesL> tzviya: it is a "May"
14:44:27 <CharlesL> gautierchomel: I feel it may block a solution.
14:44:36 <CharlesL> ... this is 1/2 a solution.
14:45:13 <CharlesL> Hadrien: I agree as described by the folks in Japan, I don't think this is any different from what others have done.
14:45:18 <duga> q+
14:45:21 <CharlesL> ... even "may" solution
14:45:25 <shiestyle> q+
14:45:46 <CharlesL> tzviya: we are not trying to create a new specification.
14:45:59 <CharlesL> ... so we don't need to change the spec to package webtoons.
14:45:59 <tzviya> ack duga
14:46:19 <tzviya> s/we don't need/so you think we don't need
14:46:38 <CharlesL> duga: suggesting that we should go back to Japaneses publishers to come up with some new metadata?
14:47:02 <CharlesL> ... similar to this but would not cause epubcheck to complain.
14:47:05 <ivan> q+
14:47:32 <tzviya> acl shiestyle
14:47:40 <CharlesL> Hadrien: even in Japan there isn't any consensus. maybe status quo is acceptable.
14:47:50 <ivan> ack shiestyle
14:47:53 <CharlesL> shiestyle: this will not define a new webtoon format.
14:48:52 <CharlesL> ... current spec is prohibited for fixed layout for reading system.  current epub spec allow to use for fixed layout for content creators but not allowed for reading systems. we want to improve for Japanese market.
14:48:58 <tzviya> ack ivan
14:50:32 <CharlesL> ivan: I find it difficult to accept.  in Japan there are a number of different publishers their own way with metadata to solve this issue.  argument is this is already done we might as well just leave this alone since they have already done it, but we are a standards company and there will be zero interoperability.  We should have a larger community to work together to develop webtoons.
14:50:41 <CharlesL> ... but this is not the group to do that.
14:50:44 <tzviya> +1 to Ivan
14:51:00 <CharlesL> ... but if this makes things illegal -> legal then I am for it.
14:51:27 <CharlesL> ... year ago talked about setting up a CG, but we haven't done anything to do that, but I don't know the players.
14:51:36 <CharlesL> ... no membership fee to join the CG.
14:51:39 <tzviya> q+
14:51:41 <Hadrien> q+
14:51:44 <tzviya> ack me
14:52:14 <CharlesL> tzviya: we have heard that W3C must figure out relevance to prevent fracturing.
14:52:15 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
14:52:25 <CharlesL> ... getting into EPUBCheck is important.
14:53:22 <CharlesL> Hadrien: We are trying to reframe it but useful for fixed layout but if we have to justify it we go back to webtoons.
14:53:35 <duga> q+
14:53:41 <tzviya> ack duga
14:54:03 <CharlesL> duga: I dont this we agree, this is about webtoons.  how you do webtoons in epub.
14:54:31 <CharlesL> ... webtoons in epub is what we are doing, we are not doing webtoons just how to get webtoons into EPUB.
14:54:56 <CharlesL> tzviya: we are at an impasse.
14:55:08 <CharlesL> ... we are waiting for feedback from Amazon.
14:55:36 <CharlesL> ivan:  I would like to have feedback from other publishers / RS in or outside of W3C.
14:56:22 <CharlesL> ... where we are today we should not publish it.  we must get other publishers reactions to this.  emphasizing webtoons IN EPUB specifically.
14:56:34 <Hadrien> q+
14:56:51 <CharlesL> ... we were discussing PRH and there may be others we need to reach out to.
14:57:14 <CharlesL> Hadrien: I can reach out to xyz on our side manga publisher in Europe.
14:57:40 <CharlesL> ivan: we can talk to PRH.
14:57:48 <CharlesL> tzviya: I have an email out to Lisa.
14:57:52 <tzviya> ack ha
14:58:02 <CharlesL> Ivan, we need more feedback.
14:58:04 <tzviya> s/Lisa/Liisa
14:58:13 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:58:18 <tzviya> s/xyz/Média
14:58:23 <CharlesL> s/xyz/Média Participations
14:58:24 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
14:59:25 <CharlesL> tzviya: PRH is dealing with this, once Liisa responses.  She will know who to reach out to.
14:59:47 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/01-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:59:55 <CharlesL> ... we did not come to consensus today, but are at the end of our time.  thanks everyone.
15:00:14 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:00:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items