14:41:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:41:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-i18n-irc
14:41:24 <addison> agendabot, find agenda
14:41:24 <agendabot> addison, OK. This may take a minute...
14:41:25 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20240229T150000/
14:41:25 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:41:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
14:41:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
14:41:27 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
14:41:29 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
14:41:31 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:41:33 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:41:34 <agendabot> agenda+ String-Meta
14:41:36 <agendabot> agenda+ Editors/authors acknowledgements
14:41:37 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:41:38 <agendabot> agenda+ WHATWG + I18N call review
14:41:41 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
14:41:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:44:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:54:53 <addison> present+ Addison
14:59:10 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
14:59:10 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
14:59:20 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
15:00:21 <addison> present+ Atsushi, JcK
15:01:08 <addison> present+ Richard
15:01:42 <addison> present+ Bert
15:03:08 <Bert> scribe+
15:03:43 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:03:44 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:03:54 <addison> agenda?
15:04:18 <Bert> addison: Anythinbg to add to the agenda?
15:04:18 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:04:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:29 <gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #75, #74, #72, #68, #66, #53, #43, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #8, #7, #4
15:04:35 <Bert> s/Anythinbg/Anything
15:04:50 <addison> #75
15:04:50 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 -> Action 75  work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29
15:05:07 <addison> #72
15:05:08 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/72 -> Action 72  update specdev to match string-meta with string/block direction as appropriate (on aphillips) due 2024-02-22
15:05:20 <addison> #66
15:05:20 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/66 -> Action 66  fix base direction vs. paragraph direction in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-01-18
15:05:39 <Bert> addison: edits done, topic for today
15:05:43 <addison> #43
15:05:44 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43  pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18
15:05:50 <addison> #35
15:05:51 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30
15:05:59 <addison> #33
15:05:59 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
15:06:15 <addison> #18
15:06:15 <Bert> addison: closed a couple, down to 22 open
15:06:15 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) due 18 Jul 2023
15:06:28 <addison> #12
15:06:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
15:06:36 <addison> #8
15:06:37 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
15:06:41 <addison> #7
15:06:41 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
15:06:53 <addison> #4
15:06:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023
15:07:12 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:07:12 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:08:02 <Bert> addison: My long-standing message format thing got accepted by Unicode. May now have time for other things. :-)
15:09:15 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:09:15 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:24 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:09:51 <Bert> addison: Objection to moving webnn to complete?
15:10:05 <Bert> ... OK, will move it. And will send them a note
15:10:51 <Bert> ... I'll aske for more time to review ARIA. Anybody can help to review?
15:11:31 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
15:11:31 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:11:49 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending
15:12:14 <addison> agenda?
15:12:26 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:12:26 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- String-Meta -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:12:38 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/84
15:12:39 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/84 -> Pull Request 84 Implement the terms 'string direction' and 'block direction' in place of 'paragrah direction' (by aphillips)
15:12:51 <addison> https://deploy-preview-84--string-meta.netlify.app/
15:13:19 <Bert> addison: replacing "paragraph direction" term.
15:13:34 <Bert> ... Thanks, r12a, for comments.
15:13:55 <Bert> xfq: Haven't had time ot review the updated version yet.
15:13:59 <Bert> JcK: Same
15:14:23 <Bert> addison: Do you want to review it still?
15:14:53 <Bert> JcK: I'm happy to accept it
15:15:14 <Bert> xfq: Same, we can always come back to it later.
15:15:45 <Bert> addison: OK, merged just now and I will publish it
15:16:19 <Bert> ... Look out for term clashes with CSS.
15:16:25 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JanMar/0064.html
15:16:34 <xfq> there's a 'block flow direction' in CSS: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-writing-modes-4/#block-flow-direction
15:16:39 <Bert> ... 2nd thing in string meta:
15:18:00 <Bert> ... direction usually needed.
15:18:20 <Bert> r12a: I thought this was not targeted at content author.
15:18:42 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1424#issuecomment-1962999923
15:18:44 <Bert> ... I thought q was if you needed diretcion specified for every item.
15:18:44 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1424 -> Issue 1424 Unnecessary direction attribute? (by iherman) [editorial] [CR2]
15:18:53 <Bert> ... Nothing to do with the HTML.
15:19:23 <Bert> addison: I meant by authoring guidelines, when do I need to include @direction, say in JSON.
15:19:32 <Bert> ... It is more content guidelines than authoring guidelines.
15:19:52 <Bert> ... And about examples in specs, which have bidi
15:20:00 <Bert> ... Do we require them to have @direction?
15:20:09 <Bert> r12a: So what about my proposed comment?
15:20:42 <Bert> addison: I don't disagree with it. The challenge is if people can determine if first-strong will work.
15:21:04 <Bert> ... So I'd say you should include direction unless you know better,
15:21:23 <Bert> ... rather that inlcude direction only if needed.
15:21:32 <Bert> s/that/than/
15:22:07 <Bert> r12a: In theroy, if you got a default for the whole set, you should not need the direction for individual items.
15:23:01 <Bert> ... If you don't have a default, and the spec requires strong-first, then if you ar enot sure about the first character, you need direction.
15:23:14 <Bert> ... and for the rest you can include it to be safe.
15:23:30 <Bert> addison: Do we develiop this guidance in string-meta?
15:23:42 <Bert> r12a: I thought it already said this.
15:24:08 <Bert> ... But would't hurt to have a section for people who are creating sets of strings.
15:24:37 <Bert> addison: We mostly have text about what specs should do, or implementers, but not a lot for producers.
15:25:17 <Bert> xfq: Agree that guidelines for producers would be useful. At least highlighted for this audience.
15:25:26 <addison> action: addison: propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta
15:25:34 <gb> Created -> action #76 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76
15:25:48 <Bert> r12a: Would have to say "guidelines for people creating sets of strings".
15:26:13 <Bert> addison: Machines could be producers, too.
15:26:29 <Bert> r12a: But the guidelines are for humans.
15:26:49 <Bert> addison: I'll propose some text.
15:27:06 <Bert> r12a: Use this comment. Can I sent it?
15:27:13 <Bert> addison: Yes, please.
15:27:43 <addison> agenda?
15:27:54 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
15:27:54 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Editors/authors acknowledgements -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:28:13 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JanMar/0063.html
15:28:50 <Bert> addison: ^^ florian's response, includes r12a's mail.
15:29:07 <addison> Richard's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JanMar/0060.html
15:29:44 <Bert> r12a: We have new publication rules that mean you cannot inlude long lists of contributors, only active editors.
15:30:52 <Bert> ... Editor may be just somebody who accepts pull requests and edits, and maybe contributes text himself.
15:31:14 <Bert> ... So how do you recognize the other people who contributed most of the content?
15:31:24 <Bert> ... Call them "author"?
15:31:45 <Bert> ... But somebody who reviewed a doc and made suggestions, is that an author?
15:32:31 <addison> q+
15:32:31 <Bert> ... And if that somebody reviewd and contributed to just one section?
15:32:32 <Bert> ... An author could be many things. From a list of names you don't know what they did.
15:32:59 <Bert> ... Unicode has an Acknowledgements section, which explains what people did.
15:33:38 <Bert> ... That section is at the bottom and probably many people never read it.
15:34:06 <Bert> ... So I'm discussing that with the editorial committee and asking if it can be moved to the very top.
15:34:06 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html
15:34:57 <Bert> ... ^^ example with acks before the introduction section.
15:35:22 <addison> ack addison
15:35:35 <Bert> ... Given that we have to be conservative in naming editors, what is the best way to recognize those other people?
15:35:57 <xfq> q+
15:36:00 <Bert> addison: I have seen docs with lengthy lists of editors.
15:36:22 <Bert> r12a: We cannot do that anymore, the editors now need to be active in the WG.
15:36:33 <Bert> addison: And authors?
15:37:08 <Bert> r12a: They are not restricted, but a simple list doesn't explain what they did.
15:38:24 <Bert> addison: In Message Formats I'm listed as editor, and I'd like to recognize a few people, and then there are many more people that contributed.
15:39:03 <Bert> ... I don't want to lose people because they are not the committer of an edit.
15:39:23 <Bert> ... The document should honor the contributors.
15:39:56 <r12a> https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr14/tr14-51.html#Acknowledgments
15:39:58 <Bert> r12a: It is not as easy as it sounds. We have called all contributors "authors" for that reason in the past.
15:40:23 <Bert> ... ^^ here is an example ack section used by Unicode.
15:40:48 <Bert> ... We should make a proposal.
15:41:08 <Bert> ... Initially just for us, but eventually for all of W3C.
15:41:28 <Bert> ... Will lead to changes in ReSpec.
15:42:32 <Bert> ... If we can use i18n docs as examples to see how it works, that would be useful.
15:43:08 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/clreq/
15:43:28 <Bert> xfq: I think I'd like a short editors list and a prominent ack list, maybe with a link to it from the meta data in the head.
15:44:07 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/alreq/
15:44:07 <Bert> ... Move the ack section up and make it more prominent, including with a link to it
15:44:08 <xfq> HTML: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/acknowledgements.html#acknowledgments
15:44:23 <Bert> addison: Do I need to comment on the thread?
15:45:40 <Bert> ... It should be in the list of the group that that spec design.
15:46:23 <xfq> w3c/specberus, w3c/tr-design, and/or tobie/specref maybe
15:46:31 <xfq> also the spec-prod@ list
15:46:48 <Bert> ... We can try it for a while.
15:47:20 <Bert> bert: My experience si that it is not actually easy to write a good ack section, but I agree it is a good thing to have.
15:47:55 <Bert> r12a: But at least get the major contributors, even if you forget some of the smaller ones over time.
15:48:18 <Bert> ... and you can findon GitHub all th epeople that doid pull requests.
15:48:18 <addison> agenda?
15:49:17 <Bert> addison: Let's see for a bit how it works.
15:49:38 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
15:49:38 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- WHATWG + I18N call review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:49:55 <xfq> s|w3c/specberus, w3c/tr-design|w3c/specberus, w3c/tr-design, w3c/respec|
15:49:58 <Bert> s/doid/did
15:50:03 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2024Feb/0006.html
15:50:19 <Bert> s/th epeople/the people
15:50:19 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:50:26 <addison> https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/5799
15:50:28 <gb> https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/5799 -> Pull Request 5799 Fix #4562: add support for internationalized email addresses (by aphillips) [addition/proposal] [needs implementer interest] [topic: forms] [i18n-tracker]
15:51:15 <xfq> s/experience si/experience is/
15:52:52 <Bert> addison: "host string" vs "domain string" in HTML. But I think there will be no additional validation rules.
15:53:08 <Bert> r12a: BAsically, as long as there is an "@" in the middle.
15:53:45 <Bert> ... I'll try to rebase the github pull request and address the comment.
15:54:09 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/73#issuecomment-1954028449
15:54:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/73 -> CLOSED Action 73  make a list of invisible characters to support html 5121 discussion (on r12a) due 2024-02-22
15:54:39 <addison> #73
15:54:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/73 -> CLOSED Action 73  make a list of invisible characters to support html 5121 discussion (on r12a) due 2024-02-22
15:55:10 <Bert> r12a: I'm assuming I now need to open issue in WhatWG with our recommendation to revisit this and create named entitiies for this list, with the compiled info in that issue.
15:55:19 <Bert> addison: There are other open issue.
15:55:32 <Bert> r12a: But they don't address the whole thing.
15:55:50 <addison> action: richard: create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in #73
15:55:53 <gb> Created -> action #77 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77
15:55:53 <Bert> s/open issue/open an issue
15:56:09 <r12a> #77 note: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/73#issuecomment-1954028449
15:56:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 -> Action 77  create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in #73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07
15:57:11 <r12a> note #77: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/73#issuecomment-1954028449
15:57:12 <gb> Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77#issuecomment-1971443459
15:58:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1815 -> Issue 1815 Discuss i18n-glossary and Infra harmonization (by aphillips) [pending] [Agenda+I18N+WHATWG] [s:infra] [whatwg]
15:59:29 <addison> action: addison: compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back
15:59:30 <gb> Created -> action #78 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78
16:00:19 <Bert> addison: I'll make a list and we'll see how we compare.
16:01:00 <addison> action: addison: schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April
16:01:00 <gb> Created -> action #79 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79
16:01:11 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
16:01:11 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-i18n-minutes.html addison
17:59:54 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n