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17:59:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:59:34 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
18:00:01 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2024Feb/0016.html
18:00:02 <agendabot> clear agenda
18:00:02 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](http://tinyurl.com/4kpjk9ck)
18:00:02 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](http://tinyurl.com/yu6bd78s)
18:00:02 <agendabot> agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests)
18:00:03 <agendabot> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
18:00:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Upcoming Agenda - CSUN Week
18:00:07 <agendabot> agenda+ [Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085)
18:00:10 <agendabot> agenda+ [Add `nameFrom: heading` steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed.](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182)
18:00:14 <agendabot> agenda+ [AccName Role Traversal Proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821)
18:00:17 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/))
18:00:40 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 9
18:00:40 <Zakim> agendum 9, [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/)), dropped
18:00:50 <jamesn> agenda?
18:01:03 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
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18:02:20 <StefanS> present+
18:02:51 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:02:53 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:03:10 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:03:55 <pkra> present_
18:04:00 <pkra> present+
18:06:40 <jamesn> regrets+ RahimAbdi
18:06:51 <jamesn> regrets+ BryanGaraventa
18:08:18 <Adam_Page> present+
18:08:26 <jcraig> present+
18:08:33 <jamesn> chair: spectranaut_
18:08:34 <keithamus> present+
18:08:41 <jamesn> present+
18:08:53 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:09:28 <spectranaut_> scribe?
18:11:05 <scotto> present+
18:11:12 <pkra> scribe: pkra
18:11:17 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:11:17 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](http://tinyurl.com/4kpjk9ck) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:11:40 <pkra> spectranaut_: editorial issue. Daniel responded with respec issue
18:12:04 <pkra> adam: just wanted to connect the dots
18:12:12 <spectranaut_> q?
18:12:22 <pkra> jcraig: I'll add a note regarding contrast modes
18:12:33 <pkra> jnurthen: let's add it for editors' meetins
18:12:45 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria 2132
18:13:15 <pkra> jnurthen: can we ask Laurence?
18:13:19 <pkra> scotto: I'll leave a comment.
18:13:49 <pkra> spectranaut_: next aria 2129
18:13:59 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
18:13:59 <pkra> ... we looked at this last week.
18:14:34 <pkra> ... aria 2127. We have 2 PRs landed without author tests.
18:15:01 <katez> katez has joined #aria
18:15:05 <mario> mario has joined #aria
18:15:08 <pkra> ... once we have tests, we can make PRs on the validator repos.
18:15:15 <pkra> ... these are good first issues.
18:15:33 <pkra> ... can someone take them on?
18:15:41 <pkra> adam: I can take one.
18:16:07 <pkra> adrian: what are the technical requirements?
18:16:15 <pkra> spectranaut_: Java.
18:16:22 <pkra> jcraig: happy to help set things up
18:16:47 <pkra> adrian: I can take the other.
18:18:01 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:18:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](http://tinyurl.com/yu6bd78s) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:18:13 <pkra> spectranaut_: html-aam 533 about hidden elements
18:18:14 <Adam_Page> s/adam/Adam_Page/
18:18:35 <pkra> scotto: this closes an older issue.
18:18:45 <pkra> ... from last week's discussion
18:19:05 <pkra> ... hidden labels in html cannot work because they're not in the accessibility tree.
18:19:11 <pkra> ... this PR clarifies this.
18:19:31 <pkra> ... not just label but table caption and legend fieldset
18:19:57 <pkra> ... do we want to adjust how the name calculation works?
18:20:13 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:20:26 <pkra> ... it might stop the algorithm too early.
18:20:46 <pkra> ... e.g., Firefox will pick up a title from the input. I feel that's right.
18:20:47 <Matt_King> present+
18:21:11 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:21:11 <pkra> spectranaut_: Adam_Page made some tests?
18:21:20 <pkra> Adam_Page: no, but I'll take a look again.
18:21:36 <pkra> ... I'll review
18:21:41 <pkra> jcraig: I'll also review.
18:22:00 <pkra> scotto: I didn't make WPT tests because I wasn't sure what we want to assert.
18:22:58 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:22:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:23:32 <pkra> spectranaut_: sarah wanted to do a deep dive on aria 1119. but let's wait until we can schedule with her
18:25:14 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:25:14 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:25:19 <jamesn> agenda?
18:25:33 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
18:25:33 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
18:25:34 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:25:34 <Zakim> 5. Upcoming Agenda - CSUN Week [from agendabot]
18:25:38 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:25:38 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Upcoming Agenda - CSUN Week -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:26:14 <scotto> no csun for me
18:26:19 <aardrian> I will be at CSUNATC
18:26:19 <Adam_Page> I’m going to CSUN
18:26:22 <pkra> spectranaut_: please let us know if you're going to CSUN so we know if we should cancel.
18:26:32 <katez> not going
18:26:34 <giacomo-petri> no CSUN this year
18:26:46 <Summer> not attending
18:27:10 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria
18:27:27 <pkra> jnurthen: let's keep the meeting.
18:27:29 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:27:29 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:27:58 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085#issuecomment-1962989715
18:28:08 <pkra> giacomo: while working on the PR, I realized that there are two attributes doing similar things
18:28:15 <pkra> ... but right now the spec only deals with one of them
18:28:23 <pkra> ... both override the default semantics of the element
18:28:47 <scotto> q+
18:28:54 <pkra> Matt_King: I didn't understand the question on rowindex etc
18:29:09 <pkra> ... can you explain what a single value should mean to do both
18:29:12 <spectranaut_> q?
18:29:51 <pkra> giacomo-petri: we need aria-valuetext to change the default value of  switch or progress bar
18:30:42 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
18:30:45 <jamesn> q+
18:30:50 <pkra> ... this seems similar to the grid situation
18:31:31 <pkra> Matt_King: row and col index text need to be specified together
18:31:32 <giacomo-petri> q+
18:31:44 <pkra> ... we chose not to use valuetext because they can be on the same cell.
18:31:51 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:31:58 <pkra> jnurthen: that's my recollection as well.
18:32:04 <scotto> q+ again
18:32:12 <pkra> ... regarding switch. is there a case where we need to know what the other value is?
18:32:25 <pkra> ... if we have one thing, we'd need to know both.
18:32:49 <pkra> giacomo-petri: right, could be. progress bar is similar - percentage or small/medium/...
18:32:58 <pkra> ... this would be a good feature but perhaps it's not needed.
18:33:02 <pkra> jnurthen: I think I agree
18:33:09 <pkra> ... I feel that even if we added it, AT wouldn't use it.
18:33:20 <pkra> ... I'd prefer to wait for AT to demand the other value.
18:33:21 <jamesn> q?
18:33:27 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
18:33:43 <pkra> giacomo-petri: the other problem with the switch role: if value text is specified, then we also require now value to be specified
18:33:46 <jamesn> q+
18:33:51 <pkra> ... that doesn't make sense for a switch.
18:33:59 <jamesn> q++ scotto
18:34:07 <jamesn> q- +
18:34:14 <jamesn> qq+ scotto
18:34:17 <pkra> ... hence my proposal
18:34:20 <jamesn> q- again
18:34:37 <pkra> Matt_King: so aria-valuetext on a switch, you wouldn't add checked/unchecked?
18:35:01 <pkra> giacomo-petri: that's the question. It seems it's always an active state.
18:35:24 <pkra> Matt_King: that's the reason why it requires value-now.
18:35:30 <pkra> ... we had a lot of discussions in APG about this
18:35:34 <pkra> ... e.g., day of the week on a slider.
18:35:44 <pkra> ... valueNow could be 1/7, 2/7 etc
18:35:55 <pkra> but that doesn't make sense and adds no value for the user.
18:36:05 <pkra> ... and it works fine anyway.
18:36:14 <jamesn> q+ to agree with Matt that I think we could remove that requriement
18:36:46 <pkra> ... we've discussed raising an issue here. But I don't want to expand the PR.
18:36:55 <pkra> ... it seems like you wouldn't need to require aria-checked.
18:36:58 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
18:36:58 <Zakim> scotto, you wanted to react to giacomo-petri
18:37:15 <jamesn> q+ to ask if switch in APIs required a checked attribute
18:37:21 <jamesn> q- scotto
18:37:52 <pkra> scotto: I like the idea of using aria-valuetext because I like the idea. But it's not even a state. It seems more like a new attribute.
18:37:58 <pkra> ... and it's not just for switch.
18:38:05 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:38:05 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to agree with Matt that I think we could remove that requriement and to ask if switch in APIs required a checked attribute
18:38:16 <pkra> jnurthen: one of the complications is HTML's definition of value and how people are using it in the real world.
18:38:26 <pkra> ... checkbox's values is never what anybody talks about.
18:39:01 <pkra> ... I agree with Matt that we should remove the requirement for value-now
18:39:18 <pkra> ... that would also allow us potentially to use it here if we end up wanting to.
18:39:26 <pkra> ... I wonder if accessibility APIs need it.
18:39:35 <pkra> jcraig: does the ARIA taxonomy require this as well?
18:39:38 <pkra> ... I think it does.
18:39:48 <pkra> jnurthen: right. But we could also change that.
18:40:26 <pkra> jcraig: feels like one of these features where we should tag it for privacy
18:40:35 <spectranaut_> q?
18:40:42 <pkra> ... if it's switched around
18:40:55 <pkra> jnurthen: feels like any form would fall for the same
18:41:10 <pkra> spectranaut_: it seems we agree valuetext is not the right thing
18:41:21 <mario> I agree with th use of statetext
18:41:23 <pkra> Matt_King: random guess: state-text. but still leaves the questions.
18:41:53 <pkra> scotto: for roledescription we don't remove the role either?
18:42:00 <pkra> Matt_King: true because it's critical.
18:42:00 <mario> q+
18:42:29 <pkra> scotto: right but I think you still need the initial state. otherwise which maps to which.
18:42:44 <pkra> Matt_King: is that the same argument as with value-now?
18:42:56 <pkra> ... oh, when you're processing the "actual" value?
18:43:41 <jcraig> q+
18:43:44 <pkra> scotto: yeah. value-now is what a human understands but you still need to be able to fallback to the underlying actionable state of the component.
18:43:58 <pkra> ... otherwise it'll be just "value" without any actual state.
18:45:02 <siri_> we don't use pressed attribute  if the label changes like play/pause
18:45:07 <pkra> Matt_King: the JS will need to know the value, but will AT need to? It seems like a switch, e.g., swapping cm and inches, won't need to expose that.
18:45:15 <jamesn> qv?
18:45:21 <jamesn> ack mario
18:45:31 <jcraig> q+ to ask why not have aria-valuetext require one of [ aria-valuenow | aria-checked | n… ]
18:45:34 <siri_> present+
18:45:42 <pkra> mario: for switch checked/not-checked but it's not easy to understand why/how it maps to red/green.
18:46:16 <pkra> jcraig: I still don't feel why we couldn't re-use value-text here.
18:46:31 <pkra> ... we know what to announce based on value-now but what we announce would be value-text.
18:47:08 <spectranaut_> q?
18:47:53 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:47:53 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:47:53 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask why not have aria-valuetext require one of [ aria-valuenow | aria-checked | n… ]
18:47:53 <pkra> ... seems easier to expect value-text to require things as needed.
18:47:53 <pkra> Matt_King: so you'd expect an event from value-text change?
18:47:53 <pkra> jcraig: I could see implementations work either way
18:48:08 <pkra> ... but requiring checked makes sense, e.g., for styling.
18:48:11 <giacomo-petri> q+
18:48:37 <pkra> giacomo-petri: sometimes you don't have green/red - e.g., cm vs inches is "always on".
18:48:37 <spectranaut_> q+
18:48:43 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
18:48:46 <pkra> ... I see that it can be problematic from a development point of view.
18:48:55 <pkra> ... it's not true/false but a choice.
18:49:19 <pkra> mario: but what is the change? it's always checked?
18:50:15 <pkra> Matt_King: I think a cleaner implementation of aria-checked isn't possible?
18:50:25 <pkra> ... could you not style based on the value-text text?
18:50:27 <jcraig> q+
18:50:43 <jamesn> q+ to ask how we envision this tying in with the native switch efforts going on
18:50:45 <pkra> spectranaut_:  I think so  but it wouldn't apply to all switches.
18:51:14 <pkra> Matt_King: but then you'd have to document checked matching a specific style.
18:51:21 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
18:51:24 <jcraig> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#switch
18:51:24 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:52:12 <pkra> jcraig: I had written something that was trying to match HTML phrasing
18:52:25 <pkra> ... for the cm vs inches. what would we do in HTML?
18:52:39 <pkra> ... that should affect what we should do in ARIA
18:52:51 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:52:51 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask how we envision this tying in with the native switch efforts going on
18:52:54 <jamesn> https://webkit.org/blog/15054/an-html-switch-control/
18:53:35 <scotto> q+
18:53:36 <pkra> jamesn: the blog post mentions checked as attribute. but it seems like thumb and track will be standardized for similar purposes.
18:53:54 <pkra> ... I don't know how we will tie that together.
18:54:09 <jcraig> .sliding-track::before {
18:54:09 <jcraig>     content: "ON" / "";
18:54:10 <jcraig>     left: -40px;
18:54:10 <jcraig> }
18:54:10 <jcraig> 
18:54:10 <jcraig> .sliding-track::after {
18:54:10 <jcraig>     content: "OFF" / "";
18:54:10 <jcraig>     right: 0;
18:54:10 <jcraig> }
18:54:21 <pkra> jcraig: [pasted the example]
18:54:53 <pkra> ... not sure what the empty string should mean.
18:55:14 <pkra> ... but we may not need this new feature if HTML provides it.
18:55:23 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
18:55:29 <pkra> jnurthen: feels like accessibility wasn't entirely thought through yet.
18:55:39 <pkra> scotto: that's why I raised it.
18:55:57 <pkra> ... anyone can change it and it no longer matches checked/no-checked.
18:56:06 <aardrian> Not merged yet: https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/9546/files
18:56:10 <pkra> jcraig: but it seems like the feature seems to already support it?
18:56:23 <pkra> scotto: implementation goes off of role switch with checked/unchecked state.
18:56:38 <pkra> ... not from css content.
18:56:46 <jcraig> content: "label" / "alt";
18:56:46 <pkra> ... that's just how it's visually rendered
18:57:04 <pkra> ... if you drop the alt, you'd sometimes get "on on"
18:57:20 <jamesn> q+
18:57:34 <pkra> jcraig: but if label/alt is supported, it feels like an implementation bug.
18:57:53 <pkra> jnurthen: one is the before and the after on the track - how do you connect that in to checked/unchecked?
18:58:01 <pkra> jcraig: right.
18:58:09 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:58:12 <pkra> ... thanks for clarifying.
18:58:56 <pkra> spectranaut_: we're at the hour. do we have enough to move a bit forward?
18:59:08 <pkra> mario: we have to battle through the HTML accessibility
18:59:23 <pkra> scotto: they're working through the pseudo content
18:59:36 <pkra> jnurthen: agreed and they should know that they shouldn't.
18:59:53 <pkra> adrian: my tests were something like "accname on or off switch"
19:00:09 <pkra> jcraig: accname included both before/after.
19:00:23 <pkra> ... we might have to modify the PRs and WPTs.
19:01:04 <pkra> scotto: the same with Open UI. People kept doing on/off whichever way they wanted. But everything pulled it in since it's name from content.
19:01:10 <pkra> spectranaut_: we're at the hour.
19:01:13 <pkra> ... there's more to discuss.
19:01:25 <pkra> jcraig: thanks again to scott for raising this.
19:01:27 <aardrian> My announcement tests with TP 185: https://adrianroselli.com/2021/10/switch-role-support.html#Update02
19:01:37 <pkra> scotto: [...]
19:01:42 <pkra> zakim, end meeting.
19:01:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been StefanS, Francis_Storr, pkra, Adam_Page, jcraig, keithamus, jamesn, giacomo-petri, scotto, Matt_King, Daniel, siri_
19:01:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:01:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:01:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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