12:01:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-uc
12:01:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-irc
12:01:36 <kaz> meeting: WoT Use Cases
12:02:06 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Michael_McCool
12:07:34 <kaz> q+
12:08:06 <kaz> ack k
12:08:08 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot-uc
12:08:17 <kaz> present+ Jan_Romann
12:09:21 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
12:10:43 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
12:11:09 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-uc
12:11:40 <kaz> scribenick: McCool
12:11:42 <McCool> topic: agenda and minutes
12:11:51 <Mizushima> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/TODO/20240228.md
12:12:02 <kaz> s/md/md Agenda for today/
12:12:12 <McCool> mz: agenda at https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/TODO/20240228.md
12:12:39 <McCool> mz: prev minutes https://www.w3.org/2024/02/21-wot-uc-minutes.html
12:13:12 <kaz> q+
12:13:15 <kaz> ack
12:13:16 <McCool> mz: we also need to think about the publication schedule
12:13:32 <McCool> mz: minute review
12:13:49 <kaz> i|we also|Feb-28: Fix basic templates for Use Cases, Functional Requirements and Technical Requirements|
12:13:50 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
12:14:01 <kaz> i|we also|Mar-6: start concrete work on Ues Cases, Functional Requirements and Technical Requirements|
12:14:20 <kaz> q|
12:14:25 <kaz> s/q|//
12:14:26 <kaz> q+
12:15:51 <kaz> ack k
12:16:16 <kaz> q?
12:16:18 <kaz> q+
12:16:23 <kaz> ack k
12:16:23 <McCool> mz: can we approve the minutes
12:16:29 <McCool> ... no objections, approved
12:16:33 <kaz> s/minutes/minutes?/
12:16:37 <kaz> q+
12:16:41 <kaz> ack k
12:16:55 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
12:17:13 <McCool> mz: also can we approve also the discussion points?
12:17:29 <McCool> ... no objections, approved (discussion summary is in agenda)
12:18:11 <McCool> topic: Discuss Use Cases, Requirements using Smart Home example
12:18:22 <McCool> mz: would like to start with discussion of use case template
12:19:05 <McCool> ... also, we've been discussing ECHONet's new proposal on grouping devices for a few weeks, but no use case yet
12:19:13 <McCool> ... propose we use that as a test case
12:20:24 <McCool> q+
12:21:48 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
12:21:58 <kaz> q+
12:22:35 <McCool> mz: would like to understand what needs to be in the use case template and what does not
12:22:51 <McCool> mm: think the security consideration is a good example here
12:23:20 <McCool> kaz: is discussed below
12:23:25 <kaz> q-
12:23:25 <McCool> mm: ok, let's move on then
12:23:28 <kaz> ack m
12:23:53 <McCool> mz: a few things could be added: adopters, applications, stakeholder's interest
12:24:01 <kaz> regrets+ Ege
12:24:07 <McCool> ... for stakeholders, why WoT?
12:25:33 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:25:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:25:41 <McCool> mz: as for what can be removed, dependency on WoT specs, X considerations (can be wide review), gap analysis
12:25:41 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:25:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:25:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:25:51 <McCool> q+
12:26:35 <kaz> i|a few things could|subtopic: What to be added|
12:26:51 <kaz> i|as for what can be|subtopic: What to be removed|
12:26:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:26:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:27:31 <McCool> mz: perhaps can also remove references to existing standards
12:27:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:27:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:27:53 <kaz> q+
12:28:01 <McCool> mz: it would also be good to identify which use cases are "typical" or "atomic"
12:28:43 <McCool> mz: for existing standards, should clarify the relationship to an existing standard
12:29:09 <McCool> ... should we refer to it?  should the WoT be compatible?  should we add new features to WoT and why?
12:30:31 <kaz> ack mc
12:32:18 <McCool> m: think the point of the use case template is to *elicit* requirements from the use case submitter; then we consolidate ("extract") them.
12:32:53 <kaz> s/m:/mm:/
12:32:59 <McCool> ... for the "considerations" in particular, really these sections could be called "Security Requirements", etc - we are asking whether this use case has any special needs
12:34:16 <McCool> ... what we could do however is ask some more specific questions, like "Does this use case handle private data?" or "Are any specific access controls or roles needed?" that would help us gather more concrete information.  In general, each section of the template could provide more guidance for the kind of information needed.
12:34:49 <McCool> kaz: technically, can understand point
12:34:58 <McCool> ... but also understand mz's point
12:35:22 <McCool> ... depends on our own policy on whether the original submitter should work on requirements or not
12:36:10 <McCool> ... mm's approach is to ask submitters to include all information in use case, mz's approach is to work with the submitters to work also on requirements sections
12:36:49 <McCool> ... but also as mm mentioned, there could be additional questions to clarify things later.
12:36:53 <McCool> q+
12:36:57 <McCool> ack k
12:37:08 <kaz> ack k
12:37:22 <kaz> s/as mm/as McCool/
12:37:28 <kaz> s/mm's/McCool's/
12:37:35 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:37:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:37:48 <kaz> q+
12:38:06 <kaz> s/mz's/Mizushima's/
12:38:13 <kaz> s/mz's/Mizushima's/g
12:38:45 <McCool> mm: will note that in general when people have submitted use cases, we have iterated with them to extract more information on requirements
12:38:58 <kaz> ack k
12:39:01 <kaz> ack m
12:39:09 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:39:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:39:23 <kaz> q+
12:39:53 <kaz> ack k
12:39:53 <McCool> ... so whether or not we associate requirements directly with a use case, we need to link them
12:40:17 <McCool> kaz: agree, either way we need to link the requirements back to the use case
12:41:07 <McCool> mm: either way, the use case submitter needs to be aware that they need to provide requirements; that is the purpose of the exercise.
12:41:34 <Mizushima> q+
12:41:37 <kaz> q+
12:41:50 <McCool> ... as for existing standard, agree it would be good to ask why each linked standard is important
12:41:54 <kaz> chair: Mizushima
12:41:57 <McCool> ... and what we should do about it
12:42:22 <kaz> s/can understand point/can understand McCool's point/
12:42:27 <McCool> mz: agree/understand with mm/kaz - we have to extract implementer's needs
12:42:50 <McCool> ... in template, the submitters describe their needs
12:42:55 <kaz> s/mz's/Mizushima's/g
12:43:08 <McCool> ... then in joint discussion, we extract requirements
12:43:34 <kaz> q?
12:43:37 <kaz> ack mi
12:44:06 <Mizushima> q+
12:44:24 <McCool> mm: note that this Echonet example is exceptionally detailed, often the use cases have been much less complete and we have had to do more to extract requirements
12:44:41 <kaz> ack mi
12:44:45 <McCool> mz: think use case template should be simple
12:45:07 <McCool> ... if it is too complicated, then submitter cannot describe their use case
12:45:19 <McCool> q+
12:45:43 <McCool> kaz: agree, we should have some more concrete guidelines
12:46:02 <McCool> ... for use case template itself, might be easier for them to understand if we ask for needs, etc.
12:46:07 <kaz> ack k
12:46:22 <kaz> ack m
12:47:08 <kaz> q+
12:47:13 <kaz> ack k
12:47:30 <McCool> mm: one way to go would be to break it into two parts, "description" and "needs"
12:47:31 <Mizushima> q+
12:47:49 <McCool> ... but "need" and "requirements" are synonyms :)
12:48:00 <kaz> ack m
12:48:13 <McCool> kaz: true, but requirements have specific meaning in standards
12:48:25 <kaz> s/requirements/"requirements"/
12:48:46 <McCool> mz: think after submitting use cases, we should should hear their points
12:49:33 <kaz> s/should should/should/
12:49:57 <McCool> mm: we always have met with people to try to refine their use cases, but I still think having a checklist of questions would make the process more precise
12:50:59 <kaz> q+
12:51:47 <McCool> mm: disagree with removing these items, but as a proposal we could split the template into two parts, description and requirements, and deal with them in two phases
12:53:01 <McCool> mm: by "checklist" I mean a set of questions to elicit more detailed requirements for each use case
12:53:23 <McCool> ... but we probably also should focus on gaps, e.g. needs not met by current WoT standard
12:53:58 <kaz> i/checklist/kaz: I think Mizushima-san's mentioned "guideline" and McCool's mentioned "checklist" could be similar at least as a guide for people to see how to submit a use case./
12:54:14 <kaz> i/kaz:/scribenick: kaz/
12:54:28 <kaz> i/by "ch/scribenick: McCool/
12:54:32 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:54:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:54:57 <McCool> mz: we have been discussing the use case template
12:58:08 <McCool> mm: if we remove items from the template, do we remove them from existing use cases?
12:58:32 <McCool> ... in general, we have avoided this, and have considered each use case the "property" of the submitter
12:58:51 <McCool> ... however, the requirements section is written by the task force, and was meant to be a summary
12:59:08 <kaz> q+
12:59:22 <kaz> ack k
12:59:39 <McCool> mz: ok, we are out of time, let's continue next week.
12:59:52 <kaz> [adjourned]
12:59:55 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:59:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/28-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
13:01:31 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-uc
13:07:59 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
13:09:55 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
13:44:22 <ktoumura> ktoumura has left #wot-uc
14:58:27 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
15:14:26 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-uc
15:14:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot-uc
15:31:16 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-uc
17:12:44 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot-uc
18:34:39 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot-uc