IRC log of aria-apg on 2024-02-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:54:38 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/27-aria-apg-irc
18:54:44 [Jem]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:54:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/27-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:55:10 [Jem]
rrsagent, make log public
18:55:23 [Jem]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:55:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/27-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:59:35 [jugglinmike]
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19:03:01 [jongund]
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19:03:07 [jugglinmike]
present+ jugglinmike
19:03:10 [jugglinmike]
scribe+ jugglinmike
19:03:15 [jongund]
present+ jongund
19:03:20 [jugglinmike]
present+ Jem
19:03:24 [dmontalvo]
present+ Daniel
19:03:55 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/February-27%2C-2024-Agenda
19:04:17 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:04:26 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Next meeting: March 5
19:04:37 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Any requests for change to agenda?
19:05:39 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Hearing none, we'll move on
19:05:43 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Publication status
19:05:49 [howard-e]
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19:06:04 [howard-e]
present+
19:06:05 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: The latest skipto with all the parameters in place (so that no more customization is necessary for APG)--that's all deployed
19:06:28 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: It might be a good idea for some people to peruse the production website today and look at these things to make sure there are no problems with skipto anywhere
19:06:58 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: It should be the same everywhere, but if there are any idosynchratic problems, we'd like to learn about them
19:07:19 [Jem]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/about/coverage-and-quality/
19:07:21 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Also, the coverage report is going to be generated automatically in response to changes to each page
19:07:50 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: You'll find the report under the heading titled "Coverage and Quality" on each page
19:08:16 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We also had one change to the "sortable tables" example; it's a pretty minor change to the CSS
19:08:27 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: That's what we got done this month
19:08:40 [Jem]
https://deploy-preview-294--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/table/examples/sortable-table/
19:08:52 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We don't have another publication date set, yet, but we'll choose one as soon as we have a few substantial things to go--hopefully by the end of March
19:10:11 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: The site is getting better all the time, particularly when it comes to learning about the status of each page
19:11:06 [siri]
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19:12:34 [Jem]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/table/examples/sortable-table/
19:12:34 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Update on triage process definition
19:12:45 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2906
19:13:19 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I spent a fair amount of time on this, but I haven't yet addressed everything we dicussed last week. I'm getting close, though
19:14:01 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I started working a little more on our labels
19:14:16 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I added a label named "ready to prioritize", and I also added labels, "p1", "p2", and "p3"
19:14:44 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: If something is "ready to prioritize", that means it has completed the "intake" step, and if it's a bug, it has also completed the "bug reproduction documentation" step in the triage process
19:15:13 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Once something is prioritized, we would replace the "ready to prioritize" label with either "p1", "p2", or "p3"
19:15:23 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I'm still updating the documentation to reflect this
19:15:37 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Then it will be ready to go, I think
19:15:58 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I need to add labels for issue severity.
19:16:06 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I think this will all be done by next week
19:16:21 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Thank you for all the work you've put into the triage process!
19:16:40 [jugglinmike]
Jem: What would be the timeline to start working on triage itself?
19:17:15 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I think I'd like try some of it in this meeting today. That will help use ensure that we're all aligned on which issue labels we need
19:17:37 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Otherwise, I'll leave it up to you to decide how you want to set up a schedule and how you want to document that schedule
19:17:53 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I think it would be possible for you to kick it off next week
19:18:14 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Okay, so who wants to contribute to the triage process?
19:18:33 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Last week, we recorded three volunteers, I believe
19:18:43 [jugglinmike]
dmontalvo: I was one of them
19:19:48 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: My proposal would be that, when people are on rotation (perhaps two times a month), they commit to an hour of independent triage--either the "intake" process or the "bug reproduction" process
19:20:30 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Obviously, we don't get bug reports every single week, so eventually, we would be able to begin revisiting prior bug reports using this process
19:21:00 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: There appear to be about 30 bugs already existing. This means that we could have really solid documentation on them all by some time in June
19:21:49 [jugglinmike]
jongund: How do we sign up? Is there a wiki page?
19:22:07 [siri]
present+
19:22:08 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I need to create a place to manage this, but I haven't selected one, yet
19:22:44 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Let's use the GitHub Wiki associated with the aria-apg repository
19:23:18 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: That means folks will need to be comfortable working with GitHub Wikis, but I think that's a reasonable requirement
19:27:13 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Fix to make combobox labels clickable
19:27:20 [jugglinmike]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2889
19:27:32 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I put this back on the agenda because we were trying to get people to review it last week
19:27:37 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I also had a question for jongund
19:28:09 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Previously, the label was in a "<label>" element, and now, the label is in a "<div>" element
19:28:21 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: My question for jongund is: was that change intentional?
19:29:10 [jugglinmike]
jongund: It was. To me, the "<label>" element wasn't doing anything. I thought a "<label>" element with an associated event handler might be misleading for folks reading to code
19:31:42 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: In the past, we've advocated for using semantic HTML even in the presense of ARIA because the semantic HTML could act as a sort of fallback for browsers/ATs that don't recognize the ARIA
19:32:00 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: But your thinking is kind of the opposite of that
19:32:26 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: It's a more pedagogical case
19:32:31 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I could see it either way
19:33:13 [jugglinmike]
Jem: As a developer, I'm accustomed to using the semantic elements whenever possible
19:33:59 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Right, but jongund's point is that the "<label>" doesn't do anything in this case. The "click" handler could be confusing to readers. This is example code that we're considering, after all
19:34:55 [jugglinmike]
howard-e: From what I've seen, there are more instances of "<div>" elements being modified to support "click" handlers
19:37:11 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I typically write code from a "semantics-first" mindset
19:39:15 [jugglinmike]
jugglinmike: I'm thinking about graceful degradation. Are there any implications to this distinction in cases where there is no event handler (because the JavaScript has not executed, for whatever reason)
19:39:37 [jugglinmike]
dmontalvo: I'm not convinced that this should be changed from "<label>" to "<div>"
19:39:50 [jugglinmike]
jongund: "<label>" is a special thing--it does something when used correctly
19:40:17 [jugglinmike]
jongund: In the ARIA spec, the group decided not to have a role named "label" because it wouldn't do anything.
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19:42:14 [jugglinmike]
jongund: If we say that you should use the "<label>" element here, then all our examples that used "aria-labeledby" had better point to an HTML "<label>" element
19:42:42 [dmontalvo]
q+
19:43:08 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I'll have to do some analysis, but I think jongund's making a pretty solid argument (because I don't think a change like the one he's just described would be an improvement)
19:44:22 [jugglinmike]
dmontalvo: Thanks jongund, I wasn't seeing the "aria-labeledby" attribute on the "<div>" element. That's an important aspect!
19:44:33 [jugglinmike]
dmontalvo: I withdraw my earlier comment
19:45:13 [jugglinmike]
s/labeledby/labelledby/g
19:45:57 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Since we're using "aria-labelledby", using a "<label>" element doesn't add any value
19:46:26 [jugglinmike]
Jem: Could we maybe add a note as a comment?
19:46:40 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: This is covered by the ARIA documentation
19:47:03 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: So I think jongund is helping us to be more consistent with what's already been done in other examples
19:47:27 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: It sounds like we have consensus
19:47:35 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We need reviewers on this patch
19:47:51 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We want a code reviewer and a functional review, and that's it
19:48:12 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We don't need a test reviewer because this doesn't impact the tests
19:49:42 [jugglinmike]
siri: I can perform a functional review with Android
19:50:07 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Great!
19:50:49 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: And I will re-review based on this conversation today
19:50:57 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: I guess that's enough
19:52:05 [jugglinmike]
Topic: Triage new issues
19:53:42 [Jem]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Issue-Triage-Process
19:54:44 [jongund]
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19:54:59 [jugglinmike]
Subtopic: Failing dialog-modal_datepicker.js test
19:55:25 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: This is coming from within the Task Force, so we don't need the "feedback" label
19:56:00 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Maybe I should change the definition of "bug" because this is related to the testing of the example, and that means the "bug" label is appropriate
19:56:59 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We need to generally extend the language in the process documentation around "pages" to include "site design" and "infrastructure"
19:57:15 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I'll add the label named "regression-testing" for now
19:58:06 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: howard-e provided excellent "steps to reproduce" in this case, but we should still assign someone to verify
19:58:43 [jugglinmike]
Jem: I will assign myself
19:58:48 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Great!
19:59:06 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: Just from triaging a single issue, we've already found several changes that need to be made to the wiki page
19:59:13 [jugglinmike]
Matt_King: We'll get there bit by bit
19:59:26 [jugglinmike]
Jem: The documentation is already good--it just needs a little more detail
19:59:59 [jongund]
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20:00:40 [jugglinmike]
Zakim, end the meeting
20:00:40 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, jongund, Jem, Daniel, howard-e, siri
20:00:42 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:00:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/27-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:00:49 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
20:00:50 [Zakim]
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20:00:55 [jugglinmike]
RRSAgent, leave
20:00:55 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items