17:59:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:59:42 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/15-aria-irc
17:59:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:59:43 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:59:45 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:59:45 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
18:00:13 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:00:36 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
18:01:23 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:01:25 <pkra> present+
18:02:14 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:02:20 <StefanS> present+
18:02:42 <jamesn> agendabot, agenda is https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2024Feb/0009.html
18:02:43 <agendabot> jamesn, sorry, I don't understand "agenda is https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2024Feb/0009.html". Try "agendabot, help".
18:03:17 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2024Feb/0009.html
18:03:17 <agendabot> clear agenda
18:03:17 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3uo02dv)
18:03:17 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3OHXBcv)
18:03:17 <agendabot> agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests)
18:03:18 <agendabot> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
18:03:21 <agendabot> agenda+ [Callout element feedback](https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10100)
18:03:24 <agendabot> agenda+ [Add steps for shadow roots and slots](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/167)
18:03:26 <agendabot> agenda+ [Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721)
18:03:30 <agendabot> agenda+ [ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110)
18:03:33 <agendabot> agenda+ [ARIA Spec could be more flexible when elements with "nameFrom:author" are left unlabeled by the author](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/138)
18:03:36 <agendabot> agenda+ [Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085)
18:03:39 <agendabot> agenda+ [Align ARIAMixin with changes in HTML](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1876)
18:03:42 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/))
18:04:29 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria
18:04:30 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:04:36 <jamesn> agenda?
18:05:04 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 12
18:05:04 <Zakim> agendum 12, [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/)), dropped
18:07:39 <sarah_h> sarah_h has joined #aria
18:07:42 <sarah_h> present+
18:07:47 <jamesn> present+
18:07:47 <melsumner> scribe+
18:07:54 <jamesn> chair: spectranaut_
18:08:19 <melsumner> Zakim, next item
18:08:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3uo02dv) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:08:23 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
18:08:31 <TheoHale> TheoHale has joined #Aria
18:08:38 <TheoHale> present+
18:08:58 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:09:00 <siri_> present+
18:09:09 <scotto> present+
18:09:12 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
18:09:16 <CoryJoseph> Present+
18:09:57 <melsumner> spectranaut_: issue triage, need to audit rule for role none and presentation on a table and list element
18:10:56 <melsumner> spectranaut_: ARIA issue 2123, concerning pubcg, anyone know about this?
18:11:34 <melsumner> pkra: it has something to do with reading systems, would be beneficial to standardize, but I haven't been involved in recent discussions
18:11:46 <melsumner> spectranaut_: is there any ask from this WG?
18:11:59 <melsumner> pkra: i don't think so it seems like it's just for awareness
18:12:10 <melsumner> jamesn: agree, seems like an FYI but if someone wants to review it they can
18:13:17 <melsumner> Zakim, next item
18:13:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3OHXBcv) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:13:54 <melsumner> Zakim, close this item
18:13:54 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
18:13:55 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:55 <Zakim> 3. [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests) [from agendabot]
18:13:58 <melsumner> Zakim, next item
18:13:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:14:33 <melsumner> spectranaut_: looks like there's one new PR, looks like melanie already looked at it
18:14:51 <melsumner> spectranaut_: maybe a few other folks could look at it and then we can get it merged
18:15:09 <melsumner> scotto: let's look at the other one there are open questions
18:15:45 <melsumner> spectranaut_: ok new namefrom: heading tests for accname
18:16:20 <melsumner> scotto: I've already provided a lot of feedback on this general topic due to all the different PRs that have to be opened
18:16:49 <melsumner> scotto: there are like five open PRs about the issue so it's kind of confusing to keep track, I suggest folks check their notifications and provide feedback
18:17:18 <melsumner> spectranaut_: so noting that nothing is passing from those tests
18:17:38 <melsumner> spectranaut_: seems like he's documenting a direction that he wants the browsers to go
18:17:50 <Adam_Page> present+
18:19:22 <melsumner> jamesn: can someone explain in plain language what IDDFS and DFS differences are?
18:20:13 <melsumner> scotto: name from heading could either go down the DOM and get the name from that, or do something different and only look for heading in certain contexts
18:20:57 <TheoHale> yes, I think the motivation is performance. The downside is it doesn't work for valid HTML.
18:20:58 <melsumner> jamesn: does this mean it will check all the immediate children and then if it doesn't find it, go looking elsewhere?
18:21:10 <melsumner> jamesn: this needs to be an agenda item for next week, I really don't understand this
18:21:14 <melsumner> (general agreement)
18:21:42 <melsumner> Zakim, next item
18:21:42 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:24:15 <melsumner> spectranaut_: let's have some notes first before we schedule the deepdive, do you have those mel?
18:24:29 <melsumner> I can have them by next week
18:24:44 <melsumner> jamesn: who _needs_ to attend?
18:25:08 <melsumner> BGaraventa: james C, is pretty important as an implementor
18:25:18 <melsumner> jamesn: week after next should probably be okay
18:25:41 <melsumner> spectranaut_: okay (commented in issue); tentatively scheduled it for the 29th
18:26:21 <melsumner> spectranaut_: ok these other deep dive issues, "title should not contribute to accName for generic elements"
18:27:47 <melsumner> I don't remember what I was thinking about it in November so I'll have to re-visit before we schedule a deepdive on it, it seems reasonable and we should just do it
18:28:07 <melsumner> scotto: different opinions on it, that's probably why
18:28:18 <melsumner> spectranaut_: ok let's look at this aria-hidden updates one
18:28:34 <melsumner> scotto: some of this has been superceded by other work, but it could still be valuable to have more discussion on it
18:28:56 <melsumner> jamesn: we don't need a deepdive probably we could do it as an agenda topic
18:29:25 <melsumner> spectranaut_: we have one other deepdive pending, accname issue about name traversal
18:29:45 <melsumner> scotto: I did a write-up on it and put in a proposal, sorta don't want to do a deepdive on it bc I'm not sure a re-hash would be helpful
18:30:09 <melsumner> spectranaut_: I agree, the summary is good and perhaps it just needs WG consensus
18:30:18 <melsumner> spectranaut_: we'll agenda it, maybe that's all we need
18:30:24 <Francis_Storr> this one? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821
18:31:11 <melsumner> spectranaut_: yes this is the one
18:31:19 <melsumner> spectranaut_: please everyone, read this
18:31:19 <spectranaut_> please read scott and jame craig's proposal: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821#issuecomment-1946338425
18:31:33 <melsumner> Zakim, next item
18:31:33 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Callout element feedback](https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10100) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:33:15 <jamesn> q+
18:33:46 <melsumner> scotto: Need other folks to read through this and provide feedback, it would be good to have a unified response based on past experiences
18:34:04 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
18:34:08 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:34:13 <melsumner> aardrian: I have opinions
18:34:34 <melsumner> q?
18:34:34 <pkra> q+\
18:34:36 <pkra> q+
18:34:40 <aardrian> Q+
18:35:05 <TheoHale> I have opinions on a personal level, I don't really understand what we are doing and why.
18:35:19 <melsumner> jamesn: the reason I haven't given feedback on this is that I don't find it particularly useful. It seems like one of these things that someone wants a new element for a reason, but I can't figure out what problem they're trying to solve
18:35:35 <melsumner> jamesn: I don't think it will help accessibility adding it but I don't think it will harm it either. seems like a noop for us
18:35:37 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
18:35:37 <TheoHale> q+
18:35:42 <spectranaut_> ack \
18:35:43 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:35:50 <melsumner> jamesn: seems like not an important a11y problem
18:35:53 <Matt_King> present+
18:35:55 <spectranaut_> ack pkra
18:36:03 <Matt_King> q+
18:36:56 <melsumner> pkra: when I looked at this previously, i felt like the discussion around types and yet-another-dictionary with semantic implications seems not useful when we already have roles
18:37:24 <melsumner> pkra: sorta reminds me of issues with roledescription, so it just seems odd
18:38:10 <CoryJoseph> Q+
18:38:11 <melsumner> pkra: from the dpub side there are already several ways that we can handle this issue, seems like it would be "yet-another-section-element"
18:38:18 <spectranaut_> ack aardrian
18:38:55 <melsumner> aardrian: broadly I think this is poorly specified and doesn't provide an AT user use-case and is conflating concepts. It's also relying on pattern libs that often have conflicting approaches to this.
18:39:29 <melsumner> aardrian: needs to evaluate what already exists, where there is overlap, etc. My inclination would be to discuss different types of sections but probably kick this one out
18:39:33 <spectranaut_> ack TheoHale
18:40:01 <melsumner> TheoHale: it isn't clear to me how this would be useful to users with AT but I was hesitant to give an opinion because I wasn't sure if I was missing something
18:40:39 <melsumner> TheoHale: if I understood the case maybe I could be swayed but I just don't from what I read
18:40:39 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
18:41:02 <melsumner> Matt King: +1 to everything aardrian said. If they want to do this, map it to a generic IMO.
18:41:42 <melsumner> Matt King: an issue I see is that the SR user wouldn't know where the callout content ends but that could be an author issue
18:42:16 <melsumner> Matt King: it's conflating concepts that are not semantically equal so I just can't see a strong case for this
18:42:23 <spectranaut_> ack CoryJoseph
18:42:46 <melsumner> CoryJoseph: echoing the group mind at this point, this is overly-broad at best and potentially dangerous at worst due to lack of definition
18:43:01 <melsumner> CoryJoseph: too much room for interpretation
18:43:10 <melsumner> spectranaut_: sounds like we have some group consensus here
18:43:42 <aardrian> Q+
18:43:45 <melsumner> scotto: this is validating. follow-up question, do we want to counter propose a note element to compliment the note role?
18:43:46 <Matt_King> q+
18:43:51 <jamesn> q+
18:43:56 <spectranaut_> ack aardrian
18:43:59 <melsumner> aardrian: no.
18:44:05 <CoryJoseph> A+
18:44:16 <CoryJoseph> Q+
18:44:31 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
18:44:35 <melsumner> aardrian: authors already have section-itis and this will confuse them even more
18:45:09 <melsumner> Matt_King: wait do we need to counter propose? I thought this element was already happening and we were just being asked to weigh in?
18:45:37 <pkra> q+
18:45:38 <jamesn> qv?
18:46:14 <melsumner> scotto: I can take the feedback and let them know, we just don't think this element is necessary
18:46:38 <jamesn> ack me
18:46:42 <melsumner> Matt_King: my worry is that they will then say "oh let's just make it a note element then" and it will annoy us and not help us
18:47:10 <spectranaut_> ack CoryJoseph
18:47:12 <melsumner> jamesn: +1 to what everyone has said, we don't need it, not a good idea
18:48:00 <melsumner> CoryJoseph: as a generic it's too broad, but in the last few months my team has been doing research on handling footnotes (e.g., modal? list at the bottom of the page?)
18:48:09 <TheoHale> couldn't that be noted inline via the annotation stuff from aaron?
18:48:22 <melsumner> CoryJoseph: is there room for some kind of simple, attached, note kind of element? maybe if it's very very strict
18:48:46 <spectranaut_> ack pkra
18:49:12 <melsumner> pkra: I would like to stress that we could point to the existing dpub work that has done a lot of creation of roles that didn't end up helping users as a cautionary tale, to help explain why we would push back on this approach
18:49:52 <melsumner> pkra: we don't even have time to make existing dpub roles useful (via working with AT), would like to see that happen
18:50:41 <jamesn> agenda?
18:50:58 <melsumner> spectranaut_: so to reiterate, it seems like we have working group consensus; scotto do you have what you need?
18:51:07 <melsumner> scotto: I have what I need
18:51:21 <pkra> dpub discussions / changs: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643 https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aam/pull/15
18:51:44 <melsumner> Zakim, next item
18:51:44 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Add steps for shadow roots and slots](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/167) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:52:37 <melsumner> spectranaut_: are we ready to land this?
18:52:44 <melsumner> jamesn: does it have wpt tests?
18:52:59 <melsumner> spectranaut_: yes it has tests, and there are a couple of implementations so I think it can land
18:53:10 <melsumner> spectranaut_: there's a merge conflict but I think it can be resolved
18:53:52 <melsumner> jamesn: I can look at the merge conflicts unless Melanie wants to do it
18:54:34 <melsumner> I wouldn't be able to get to it until next week so if you can before then please do
18:54:36 <melsumner> (agreement)
18:54:38 <melsumner> Zakim, next item
18:54:38 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:55:28 <melsumner> spectranaut_: what needs to be done here?
18:55:43 <melsumner> scotto: I didn't come away from this thinking that ARIA needs to do more here, so I think it's okay
18:56:01 <melsumner> jamesn: do we just close it if there is nothing more for us to do?
18:56:13 <melsumner> Matt_King: I don't see links to the minutes from the last discussion on this
18:56:33 <melsumner> jamesn: a couple comments up there's a link to the meeting notes
18:57:14 <melsumner> Matt_King: k I remember the conversation about it and I felt like this would promote things that are really bad for accessibility.
18:57:39 <melsumner> spectranaut_: ok well, scotto if you can read through it and determine if it's closeable please
18:58:10 <melsumner> Zakim, take up item 11
18:58:10 <Zakim> agendum 11 -- [Align ARIAMixin with changes in HTML](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1876) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:58:21 <melsumner> spectranaut_: I think this one is mergeable
18:58:57 <melsumner> spectranaut_: I think we can land the suggested changes and I will resolve the merge conflicts and get this PR merged
18:59:43 <melsumner> Zakim, end meeting
18:59:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pkra, StefanS, Daniel, sarah_h, jamesn, TheoHale, Francis_Storr, siri_, scotto, bgaraventa, CoryJoseph, Adam_Page, giacomo-petri, Matt_King
18:59:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:59:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/15-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:59:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, melsumner; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:59:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria