14:05:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:05:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/12-coga-irc
14:05:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:05:36 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:05:54 <lisa_> regrets+ Rebecca
14:06:18 <lisa_> scribe list https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
14:33:28 <lisa_> agenda+ scheduling literary review working meeting https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ky5QsMkKJKy977XwH5_MKCammJs7xj35jO7zHETV0o8/edit#gid=0
14:33:49 <lisa_> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:33:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/12-coga-minutes.html lisa_
14:34:30 <lisa_> Q?
14:52:22 <lisa_> agenda?
14:52:56 <lisa_> agenda order 1,2,3,10,4,5,6,7,8,9,
14:54:13 <lisa_> regrets+ rain
15:15:38 <lisa_> New item:- following affects on metal health and inclusion  And - following saftey best practices
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15:45:50 <lisa_> q?
15:46:16 <lisa_> present+
15:59:27 <lisa_> regrets+ rain, becca, rachel
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16:01:57 <rashmi> present+
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16:02:02 <Jennie> present+
16:02:17 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
16:02:25 <JMcSorley> present+ Jan
16:02:30 <lisa_> next item
16:02:41 <lisa_> agenda?
16:02:51 <lisa_> take up item 2
16:02:52 <Jennie> Lisa: We will come back to item 1
16:03:07 <Jennie> Lisa: Do we have a meeting next week?
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16:03:23 <jeanne> p+
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16:03:37 <Jennie> * I am not working on Monday due to the holiday
16:03:40 <abbey> present+
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16:04:28 <Jennie> Lisa: We have scheduled some mental health proposals for the next meeting.
16:04:58 <lisa_> take up item 3
16:05:00 <Jennie> ...We will have a quorum so we will have next week's meeting.
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16:05:07 <julierawe> present+
16:05:09 <Jennie> ...We will also do some things through the list.
16:05:16 <tburtin> present+
16:05:47 <Jennie> David S: Over the last few months I have been communicating COGA's feedback
16:05:57 <Jennie> ...On the Collaborative Tools document
16:06:18 <Jennie> ...To the group who originated it: the Research Questions task force
16:06:32 <Jennie> ...They have welcomed the feedback, but pushed back on some of it.
16:06:43 <Jennie> ...Especially where they consider the feedback to be out of scope.
16:06:53 <Jennie> ...Some they felt was more about software in general.
16:07:28 <Jennie> ...They don't tend to explain for particular users so feel it is difficult to do it for cognitive but not others
16:07:41 <Jennie> ...They have agreed to have a meeting for members of COGA and RTQF
16:07:54 <Jennie> ...This will allow an opportunity to discuss those issues.
16:08:27 <Jennie> ...I will put the issues together, and circulate that to COGA.
16:08:42 <Jennie> ...Anyone who originated the issue or wants to discuss could attend the joint meeting.
16:09:08 <Jennie> Lisa: We have to understand if our comments are out of scope, or they are misunderstood
16:09:34 <Jennie> ...John K is not on the call. I know some issues are from him.
16:09:44 <Jennie> ...Jennie also put together a lot of the comments.
16:09:52 <Jennie> ...It is hard sometimes to determine who originated each comment.
16:10:01 <Jennie> ...We thought it included Github, Google Docs, etc.
16:10:13 <lisa_> take up item 4
16:10:13 <Jennie> ...Can you send an email with a few alternative weeks?
16:10:24 <lisa_> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ky5QsMkKJKy977XwH5_MKCammJs7xj35jO7zHETV0o8/edit#gid=0
16:10:33 <Jennie> Lisa: (still on the previous topic)
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16:10:39 <DavidSwallow> present+
16:10:48 <Jennie> ...I have done a spreadsheet for a call on literary review - maybe copy that format
16:11:14 <Jennie> David S: I agree. I will send around a summary of the issues.
16:11:16 <lisa_> take up item 1
16:11:30 <lisa_> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ky5QsMkKJKy977XwH5_MKCammJs7xj35jO7zHETV0o8/edit#gid=0
16:11:35 <Jennie> Lisa: Let's finish all the schedule/reminders
16:11:52 <Jennie> ...This is for finding a good time - working meeting to go through the papers we have agreed to review.
16:12:02 <Jennie> ...A lot of people want to do at least one together.
16:12:17 <Jennie> ...This is about updating our research documents, reviewing the literature to see what has changed.
16:12:34 <Jennie> ...We need people to do the literary reviews. If you are unsure how to do it, then it might help to do them together.
16:12:41 <Jennie> ...Then you can ask questions as you are doing it
16:13:00 <Jennie> ...Please put yes if there are times where you can attend.
16:13:09 <Jennie> ...I will try to send the responses tomorrow.
16:13:13 <Jennie> ...Do people need more time?
16:13:30 <Jennie> ...(moving to AG summary)
16:13:52 <julierawe> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/49
16:14:02 <Jennie> Julie: Welcome to the new member!
16:14:10 <Jennie> ...This link is a discussion thread in Github
16:14:21 <Jennie> ...This is about outcomes - what should they look like in WCAG 3.
16:14:29 <Jennie> ...There is not a "must" to do this
16:14:36 <Jennie> ...This is an interesting discussion
16:14:54 <Jennie> ...Example: users with limited memory will be able to complete a certain tasks
16:15:05 <Jennie> ...Or, should it be written in first person? "I need..."
16:15:13 <Jennie> ...Another example: where, what, why
16:15:23 <Jennie> ...When you do something, what you do
16:15:35 <Jennie> ...Some are getting thumbs up and thumbs down
16:16:03 <Jennie> ...What if the same outcome also works for someone with both a visual impairment and people with cognitive disability
16:16:14 <Jennie> ...At what point does it become cumbersome to list them all?
16:16:36 <Jennie> ...This will be discussed more tomorrow in the Accessibility Guidelines Working Group discussion, item 3
16:16:58 <Jennie> ...That's my update
16:17:16 <lisa_> take up item 4
16:17:22 <lisa_> q?
16:17:45 <Jennie> Lisa: This is a link to the paper
16:18:37 <Jennie> ...The email was sent shortly before the meeting. Hopefully that is ok.
16:18:51 <Jennie> ...We had an issue paper on safety.
16:19:14 <Jennie> ...We were not too specific because we didn't want to give people ideas.
16:19:26 <Jennie> ...We wanted to alert people to be careful, and do more research.
16:19:40 <Jennie> ...We did not want to detail the criminal activities.
16:19:49 <Jennie> ...With the mental health review, we expanded it.
16:20:22 <Jennie> ...This now includes how this impacts mental health.
16:20:37 <Jennie> ...There was also the inclusion of social media apps.
16:21:01 <Jennie> ...This can be used both in a supportive way, and can be used in a detrimental way to mental health
16:21:19 <Jennie> ...We discuss privacy in a bit more detail.
16:21:25 <Jennie> ...A bit on social media.
16:21:35 <Jennie> ...And a warning that these studies are correlations at best.
16:22:13 <Jennie> ...We do know there is curated content due to the algorythm
16:22:54 <Jennie> ...If you are more likely to click on things that make you anxious, then your feed is more likely to show you things that may make you anxious
16:23:21 <Jennie> ...Emotional regulation and impaired decision making - sometimes gatekeeping is good, sometimes it is not
16:23:36 <Jennie> ...Certain addictions, like gambling, can be made more difficult
16:24:04 <Jennie> ...The normal things people may have done to restrict certain issues may not be possible.
16:24:32 <Jennie> ..."Gaming addiction" is not something some agree on as a diagnosis is included, and noted.
16:25:03 <Jennie> ...Sometimes use of particular apps, like those for parking, may not be used by this group.
16:25:22 <Jennie> ...Then, this group's data may not be included when decisions are being made (based on data from those apps).
16:25:52 <Jennie> ...Section 3: Proposed Solutions
16:26:06 <Jennie> ...Includes giving the user control of their data; and how easy is it
16:26:17 <Jennie> ...Example: cookies
16:26:56 <Jennie> ...There are different styles of asking the questions about cookies
16:27:21 <Jennie> ...We may want a pattern for this.
16:27:43 <Jennie> ...Another one is on Supported decision making
16:27:50 <Jennie> ...We may want this to be a separate paper.
16:28:03 <lisa_> Q?
16:28:17 <Jennie> ...This is about when a person has a guardian, and sometimes just a helper
16:28:24 <Jennie> ...To maximize a person's independence.
16:28:32 <Jennie> ...This can be to enable autonomy
16:28:48 <Jennie> ...Example: if a person's memory is declining and they are afraid of using a credit card.
16:29:15 <Jennie> ...If unusual patterns can go to a care giver, or they get an email requiring them to wait for 15 minutes before completing.
16:29:40 <Jennie> ...How this is done to optimize a person's ability, but also maintain its safety for them.
16:29:58 <Jennie> ...There are some items in the legal area we may want to remove, or put in an appendix.
16:30:11 <Jennie> ...In the algorithm section
16:30:28 <Jennie> ...There could be the right to delete content
16:30:49 <Jennie> ...Example: a post was made during a time when treatment was needed
16:31:08 <Jennie> ...Supported decision making: how long has a person been on social media
16:31:21 <Jennie> ...Section 3x: A process of safety
16:31:43 <Jennie> ...In the design team and process: put well-being at the forefront.
16:32:31 <Jennie> ...The changes are going to be coming even faster
16:32:48 <Jennie> ...Ensuring people are aware of the risks, the problems are identified
16:33:00 <Jennie> ...Integrating care givers and helpers
16:33:11 <Jennie> ...And includes the hacker information that was previously included
16:33:38 <Jennie> ...Ongoing analytics - it may be that the data collection is excluding them
16:33:43 <Jennie> ...The review of this is important.
16:33:44 <lisa_> Q?
16:33:49 <Jennie> ...Any questions?
16:33:59 <lisa_> next item
16:34:05 <lisa_> close item 1
16:34:14 <lisa_> close item 2
16:34:23 <lisa_> close item 3
16:34:37 <lisa_> close item 10
16:34:48 <Jennie> Lisa: Do we need a pattern?
16:34:55 <lisa_> take up next item
16:35:14 <Jennie> Lisa: Here's what we have in Making Content Usable
16:35:26 <Jennie> ...The user need is pretty good for 4.5.11
16:35:32 <Jennie> ...We could add a bit about mental health
16:35:43 <Jennie> ..."Help the user stay safe (Pattern)"
16:35:54 <Jennie> ...(reads from the document)
16:36:02 <lisa_> New item:- following affects on metal health and inclusion  And - following saftey best practices
16:36:08 <Jennie> ...I think there are 2 new ones
16:36:18 <lisa_> ongoing alasis
16:36:29 <Jennie> ...1. Follow or ongoing analysis of mental health inclusion
16:36:38 <Jennie> ...2. Following safety best practices
16:36:46 <Jennie> ...This may be part of it
16:36:57 <Jennie> ...And adding advice into the "How it helps" where you have more detail
16:37:04 <Jennie> ...Or recommending people look at the issue paper
16:37:19 <Jennie> ...Proposal is to add these
16:37:32 <Jennie> ...Maybe changing "risks" to "potential risks"
16:37:39 <lisa_> add potential risks not just known risks
16:37:40 <Jennie> ...Not just known risks
16:37:49 <lisa_> +1
16:37:55 <lisa_> q?
16:38:23 <Jennie> Rashmi: I think this is good
16:38:41 <Jennie> Lisa: Do you like the proposal - adding to 4.5.11?
16:38:48 <Jennie> Rashmi: Yes.
16:39:05 <Jennie> Lisa: I think we can add other information to the how it helps section.
16:39:12 <Jennie> ...Does anyone want more time to think about it?
16:39:19 <Jennie> David S: I am happy with what I heard so far.
16:39:23 <Jennie> Lisa: Any objections?
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16:39:41 <JMcSorley> +1
16:39:44 <jeanne> +1
16:39:45 <Jennie> +1
16:39:47 <tburtin> +1
16:39:48 <DavidSwallow> +1
16:39:50 <abbey> +1
16:39:52 <rashmi> +1
16:39:56 <lisa_> take up next item
16:40:11 <Jennie> Lisa: There are breakout sessions in March
16:40:15 <Jennie> ...March 12
16:40:23 <Jennie> ...There will be other opportunities in September
16:40:28 <Jennie> ...These are on Zoom
16:40:34 <Jennie> ...They are across the W3C
16:41:10 <Jennie> ...I wrote an email about it
16:41:20 <Jennie> ...A proposal is lets start a new task force, or community, to review algorithms and best practices
16:41:52 <Jennie> ...Is it something we would like to bring?
16:42:03 <Jennie> ...If so, we need to work on the presentation in the next 3 weeks?
16:42:46 <Jennie> ...+ 1 if you can help get the presentation together
16:43:05 <Jennie> * changing the poll
16:43:25 <lisa_> +1 ia yes doit
16:43:39 <lisa_> +1 and i want help - is you can give some time
16:43:44 <lisa_> _1 - bad idea
16:43:49 <lisa_> 0 - neutral
16:43:58 <abbey> 0
16:44:01 <Jennie> 0
16:44:12 <julierawe> 0 (a lot of work to get ready in short amount of time)
16:44:17 <tburtin> 0 Due to other commitments at work
16:44:23 <jeanne> 0
16:44:37 <DavidSwallow> 0 (would be good to have the presence, but a lot to do)
16:44:45 <Jennie> Lisa: We will leave it, and maybe we will aim for September as a break out session
16:45:15 <Jennie> ...Another question to Jennie - should informed consent and guided decision making - should we do those as separate issue papers?
16:45:25 <Jennie> ...Or reference them here?
16:46:34 <Jennie> Jennie: I recommend reaching out to John Rochford and John Kirkwood given some of the changes happening in terms of "Guardianship" in some groups
16:46:46 <Jennie> Lisa: I think Rain and Kiki would be other good contacts
16:46:53 <Jennie> ...And Jamie
16:47:09 <Jennie> ...And guided decision making
16:47:32 <Jennie> ...And, the question is, is anyone prepared to do it.
16:47:41 <lisa_> next item
16:47:58 <Jennie> Lisa: Next steps for this issue paper is to get more feedback.
16:48:07 <Jennie> ...I am assuming people want to read it, and put in comments.
16:48:11 <Jennie> ...Is that correct?
16:48:27 <JMcSorley> I would like to read through it.
16:48:37 <jeanne> I would like to read, as well.
16:48:58 <Jennie> Lisa: I will put the question to the list.
16:49:19 <Jennie> ...Ok, I won't put it to the list, but will give people 2 weeks to review
16:49:29 <Jennie> ...It may be longer
16:49:32 <lisa_> next item
16:50:24 <Jennie> Lisa: Rashmi - please add the new pattern we suggested
16:50:29 <Jennie> Rashmi: Yes, I will
16:50:41 <Jennie> Lisa: There were comments that people were feeling overwhelmed.
16:50:48 <Jennie> ...Here is the timeline we have
16:51:00 <Jennie> ...Until April - we are focusing on getting changes into the new draft
16:51:14 <Jennie> ...We only need to do the literary reviews for the next phase - the issue papers
16:51:22 <Jennie> ...I think we are looking pretty good for that.
16:51:35 <Jennie> ...May through August we do the literary reviews for the user research
16:51:38 <Jennie> ...It is staggered
16:51:49 <Jennie> ...We don't have to do all the literary reviews at the same time
16:52:06 <lisa_> Q?
16:52:13 <Jennie> ...Any questions? Does this help?
16:52:24 <Jennie> Julie: For phase 1 (up to April)
16:52:30 <Jennie> ...For the internal draft
16:52:37 <Jennie> ...For each section of Making Content Usable
16:52:51 <Jennie> ...We will take what is in version 1, and adjust as much as is needed for the new structure
16:52:54 <Jennie> ...Section by section?
16:53:16 <Jennie> Lisa: Phase 1 we are going to make an editor's draft - internal draft
16:53:23 <Jennie> ...With a mock up of the new structure in it
16:53:27 <Jennie> ...We may run a bit late
16:53:40 <Jennie> ...The main thing is the new structure
16:53:57 <Jennie> ...We have to get it out of PowerPoint presentation and into a draft to see how it works, what has disappeared, etc.
16:54:08 <Jennie> ...Another thing: Erik's been going through issues.
16:54:14 <Jennie> ...Those will be in a group in the new draft.
16:54:28 <Jennie> ...Changes suggested by the mental health group - hopefully all of them will be in the draft.
16:54:40 <Jennie> ...Then, what's our suggestion for how we want to put testing in?
16:54:55 <Jennie> ...Have some kind of editor's note, so we can imagine it
16:55:02 <Jennie> ...And having images
16:55:08 <Jennie> ...We may not have all of it done
16:55:20 <Jennie> ...And at the same time, doing the literary reviews necessary for the next phase.
16:55:29 <Jennie> ...The next phase is issue papers editors draft
16:55:38 <julierawe> q+
16:55:39 <Jennie> ...Becca or Abbey is reviewing papers.
16:55:47 <Jennie> ...David is working on one.
16:55:57 <Jennie> ...Tiffany and EA are working on one
16:56:11 <Jennie> ...Getting whatever issue papers we wanted to do ready for an editor's draft.
16:56:22 <Jennie> ...Before May we need to be sure we have the literary reviews done.
16:56:36 <Jennie> Julie: For getting an editor's draft -  internal, with the new structure.
16:56:44 <Jennie> ...Will we divide up that work?
16:57:01 <Jennie> ...Rain says "Here is the new structure" then Julie and John add in the plain language section?
16:57:08 <Jennie> ...Or does it happen a different way?
16:57:22 <Jennie> Lisa: The new structure will be 1-2 people, probably Rain leads, and then adds me.
16:57:36 <Jennie> ...It won't be "now put in all the plain language"
16:57:57 <Jennie> ...We might do it for one, but it will mainly be taking what we have and reorganize it based on Rain's proposal
16:58:06 <Jennie> Julie: Then there will be feedback.
16:58:23 <Jennie> Lisa: Yes. And we will send it to EO. This way we do it and send to a small number of people
16:58:23 <lisa_> Q?
16:58:28 <Jennie> ...Before we put too much work into it.
16:58:29 <lisa_> ack next
16:58:35 <lisa_> next item
16:58:54 <Jennie> * Apologies - scribe has to drop in 1 minute
16:59:34 <Jennie> q+
17:00:54 <lisa_> ack next
17:00:55 <julierawe> Gotta drop, thanks
17:01:31 <lisa_> ack next
17:01:48 <lisa_> RRSAgent, publish minutes
17:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/12-coga-minutes.html lisa_
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