18:58:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:58:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/06-aria-apg-irc
18:58:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:58:48 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:58:55 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
18:59:16 <Matt_King> present+
18:59:30 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Jemma
18:59:37 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/06-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
19:00:16 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-apg
19:01:11 <Jem> present+
19:01:19 <Jem> present+ Curt
19:01:26 <Jem> Present+ Arie
19:02:39 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
19:04:00 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/February-6%2C-2024-Agenda
19:04:21 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:04:24 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:04:27 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
19:04:33 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:04:39 <howard-e> present+
19:04:41 <jugglinmike> Jem: Any request for change to the agenda?
19:04:46 <jugglinmike> [no response]
19:05:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I removed the "site updates" topic because there is nothing relevant there (I'm a little behind)
19:05:32 <jugglinmike> Jem: Next meeting: February 13
19:05:39 <jugglinmike> Topic: pdating skipto
19:05:53 <jugglinmike> s/ pdating/ Updating/
19:05:59 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
19:06:07 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/wai-aria-practices/pull/292
19:06:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It sounds like there's some work that has to be done for which we do not currently have a pull request
19:06:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Specifically a change in the aria-practices repository
19:06:44 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
19:07:02 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I suggested to do that in the same pull request which introduces the version updates
19:07:09 <jugglinmike> present+ Jem
19:07:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So you're suggesting that we add a commit to gh-2807?
19:07:47 <jugglinmike> howard-e: That's right--to add the "data-skipto" attributes
19:08:15 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria-apg
19:08:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Can you make that modification?
19:08:19 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Sure
19:08:38 <jugglinmike> howard-e: It already has a couple approvals; would you like me to re-request approval from you and Jem?
19:08:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes
19:09:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What's the order of merging, here? Can you merge 292 first, allowing us to preview 2807?
19:09:21 <Jem> present+ Bryan
19:09:25 <Jem> present+ Siri
19:12:35 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I think 292 can be merged. If we merge the main branch into 2807, we can subsequently preview that
19:12:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Cool. This will simplify things going forward
19:13:34 <Jem> data-skipto="colorTheme:aria; displayOption:popup; containerElement:div"
19:14:29 <jugglinmike> Topic: HTML search element guidance
19:14:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know what the appropriate timing on this is
19:14:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a brand-new HTML element
19:15:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The HTML validator hasn't been updated for the "search" element, yet
19:15:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is it too early to add this to the APG?
19:15:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do we want to give guidance now? Do we want to encourage use of the HTML "search" element or not?
19:15:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not sure what the best thing to do for the APG is, here.
19:16:27 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2652
19:16:28 <jugglinmike> Bryan: I haven't worked with this new element, personally
19:17:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks to me like this element doesn't directly map to ARIA "search"
19:17:18 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I haven't used the element, either
19:17:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I almost feel as though this is something to be brought to the ARIA Working Group
19:18:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The HTML "search" element is more prescriptive than ARIA "search"
19:19:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anyone want to review the pull request and share their perspective on it?
19:19:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: e.g. if it feels directionally correct, and if it updates APG correctly and comprehensively
19:20:11 <jugglinmike> Jem: Is lack of support in the HTML validator a deal-breaker?
19:20:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think so
19:20:29 <siri> Accessibility concerns The <search> element defines a search landmark. This removes the need for adding role=search to a <form> element.
19:20:40 <siri> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/search
19:20:51 <jugglinmike> Jem: It looks as though support for "search" has arrived in Safari
19:21:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should get at least two (but ideally three) people reviewing this and providing feedback on it
19:22:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The guidance should be aligned with HTML and ARIA, and also that it's consistent with the guidance for the other elements that produce landmarks
19:22:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't have a tight time table
19:22:27 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I'll take a look; I wanted to look at it, anyway
19:22:40 <jugglinmike> Siri: You can add my name, as well--I'm also curious
19:22:49 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2923/commits/5954cf62cfdce9091085321f18eb8c9e42db139d
19:24:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Are there other places across APG that need to be changed (in addition to those that the patch is currently changing)?
19:24:19 <jugglinmike> Jem: Are you talking about *using* "search" in APG?
19:24:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No, just documenting it
19:26:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think we use the "search" role in APG, though adding it in is actually in our backlog
19:27:14 <jugglinmike> Topic: Auto-updating of coverage and quality report
19:27:26 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2122
19:27:35 <siri> shirsha
19:27:39 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2122
19:28:18 <Jem> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/about/coverage-and-quality/
19:28:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's a preview here. If you go to the "about" page and go down to the "coverage and quality"
19:28:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There isn't anything on this page which indicates when the report was last run
19:29:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems to me like the script which does the update should also modify the content to reflect the date (we don't need the time)
19:29:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not sure where it should appear on the page, exactly
19:29:36 <jugglinmike> Jem: That sounds like a good idea--it's a good service to the user
19:29:54 <jugglinmike> Jem: But you're only talking about the "coverage and quality" report, not the entire website, right?
19:29:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's right
19:30:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't necessarily have to do it as part of this pull request
19:30:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But without it, there's no way to tell that it's working just from looking at the website. To me, that decreases its utility
19:31:37 <jugglinmike> Jem: Maybe just below the heading--"Last updated on ..."
19:34:17 <jugglinmike> howard-e: This script runs on every workflow push--not just commits to the "main" branch. That means it also operates on pull request branches
19:36:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We already have a solution for "page last updated" on the pattern example pages
19:37:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's displayed at the bottom of the page. Is that fixed-position?
19:37:33 <jugglinmike> Jem: No, it is statically positioned at the very bottom
19:38:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: How is it that the example pages have that addition section at the bottom, and the other pages do not? Is it possible to pull that extra section in to this "coverage and quality" report page
19:38:35 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I'd like to think it's possible, of course, but I will need to review the build process to say for sure
19:39:05 <jugglinmike> howard-e: We probably wouldn't want to take that approach unless we wanted to include the "last modified" date for *all* pages in the "About" section
19:39:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay! For some future change, we should consider including a "last modified" date on every page in the APG
19:40:35 <jugglinmike> howard-e: The associated CSS will ideally be declared inline within the HTML since this is a template we're editing
19:41:53 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: I can take a shot at this if someone can give me a little direction
19:42:25 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/blob/main/content/about/coverage-and-quality/coverage-and-quality-report.html
19:43:57 <jugglinmike> [the group reviews the project's file organization and identifies the two files which need to be modified]
19:43:58 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/blob/main/scripts/coverage-report.template
19:45:28 <jugglinmike> Topic: Sortable table bug
19:46:45 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2904
19:46:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is a pull request which addresses this
19:47:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The issue looked pretty well-documented to me
19:47:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They're saying that if all the columns are sortable, you end up with this problem
19:48:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They're changing our example. Our example doesn't work if you make all the columns sortable
19:49:30 <jugglinmike> siri: If the column is not sorted, nothing is visually provided to the users that indicates that the column is sortable (not until I hover over it or give focus to it)
19:50:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That was a design decision because we didn't want to clutter the table with a bunch of icons. No one does that in the real world
19:51:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The table allows you to sort by multiple criteria, but ARIA sort doesn't support this, and so neither does the visual presentation here
19:52:42 <Jem> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/table/examples/sortable-table/
19:52:42 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: At Oracle, we do offer sortable tables where the "sort" icon is always present
19:53:20 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: And here in APG, that's also available when enabling the example's option labeled "Display sort icon in headers of sortable columns that are not sorted"
19:54:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, so Siri's preferred behavior is available with this option. Siri's feedback is about changing the default behavior
19:55:52 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Oracle's implementation looks slightly different (using an "up" arrow and a "down" arrow instead of a diamond shape), but it matches Siri's expectation
19:56:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In any case, this is a separate issue than what's been reported
20:01:05 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:01:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Jem, Curt, Arie, jugglinmike, howard-e, Bryan, Siri
20:01:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:01:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/06-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:01:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:01:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
20:01:18 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:01:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items