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13:43:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/02-pmwg-irc
13:43:15 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:43:16 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:43:35 <ivan> chair: wendy, shinya
13:51:36 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #pmwg
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14:00:19 <tzviya> present+
14:00:25 <tzviya> Meeting: PMWG
14:00:26 <shiestyle> present+
14:00:26 <ivan> present+
14:00:29 <dhall> present+
14:00:40 <tzviya> Date: 2024-02-02
14:00:44 <tzviya> Chair: shiestyle
14:02:18 <tzviya> zakim, start the meeting
14:02:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:02:20 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
14:03:18 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2602
14:03:36 <duga> present+
14:03:52 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg
14:03:58 <ivan> present+ Hadrien
14:03:59 <Hadrien> present+
14:04:04 <ivan> present+ Wendy
14:04:41 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #pmwg
14:04:48 <gpellegrino> present+
14:04:49 <ivan> present+ gpellegrino
14:04:50 <gpellegrino> scribe+
14:05:04 <gpellegrino> Shinya: We have a PR
14:05:24 <gpellegrino> ... can someone explain the PR?
14:06:37 <gpellegrino> wendy: we both change the EPUB core and EPUB RS documents, in both documents we creating a new heading for telling that renditions flow metadata apply to both FXL and reflowable EPUB
14:07:19 <gpellegrino> ... we also created diagrams to explain the behaviour we expect when rendition flow is applied
14:07:27 <tzviya> q?
14:07:45 <gpellegrino> ... we also change a MUST to a MAIN when we say about RSs that may ignore renditions flow
14:07:58 <ivan> q+
14:08:18 <gpellegrino> q+
14:09:09 <gpellegrino> ivan: is it correct that this change reflexts what is happening with webtoons?
14:09:22 <dhall> q+
14:09:27 <gpellegrino> ... are we documenting existing practices?
14:09:29 <ivan> ack ivan
14:10:18 <Hadrien> q+
14:10:31 <tzviya> ack gpellegrino
14:10:43 <duga> q+
14:11:31 <gpellegrino> shiestyle: It depends: we're using rendition-flow = continuos, Apple is using it in their apps
14:12:03 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: did we discuss it at last two TPACs? Didn't we agree to move to the CG for experimenting?
14:12:06 <tzviya> ack dhall
14:12:25 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
14:12:27 <gpellegrino> ivan: We the last WG there was not enough time, I don't remember with CD
14:12:30 <gpellegrino> CG*
14:12:54 <gpellegrino> dhall: Yes, we are using it in FXLs EPUBs
14:13:17 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: I think it really depends on what we agree it is a webtoon
14:13:28 <ivan> s/with CD/with CG/
14:13:42 <gpellegrino> ... the division is not structurale, the vertical image is split just for distribution
14:14:05 <gpellegrino> ... this helps also for optimization in loading
14:14:33 <gpellegrino> ... this content is consumed in specialized platforms outside the generic EPUB ecosystem
14:14:37 <ivan> q+
14:15:07 <tzviya> q+ to add to Hadrien
14:15:08 <gpellegrino> ... I think that instead of discussing about webtoons, we're misusing an existing property
14:15:24 <dhall> q+
14:15:25 <tzviya> ack duga
14:15:33 <gpellegrino> ... that may hurt other use cases, I think there is place for a broader discussion
14:16:19 <gpellegrino> duga: about optimization: you can scroll the images natively, instead of using images in HTML
14:17:11 <gpellegrino> shiestyle: In Japan many publishers are using EPUB as an interchange format, more then for a B2C format
14:17:55 <gpellegrino> ivan: I'm trying to remember how it started: Japan publishers where worried of having a new big market (webtoons) outside the EPUB ecosystem
14:18:10 <tzviya> ack iv
14:18:15 <tzviya> ack wendy
14:18:42 <duga> q+
14:19:18 <ivan> q+
14:19:34 <gpellegrino> wendy: I discussed with Hadrien offline, I think his comments are valid, at the same time I think we have to respond to this emerging market
14:20:53 <gpellegrino> ... for the comment about the "logistic" (series, episodes, etc.) I think this is a metadata issue
14:21:08 <Hadrien> q+
14:21:21 <ivan> ack tzviya
14:21:21 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to add to Hadrien
14:21:24 <gpellegrino> tzviya: I'm feeling like I felt when FXL came out
14:22:05 <gpellegrino> ... we had an implementer who implemented it in a way and we adapted the format in that way
14:22:12 <tzviya> ack dhall
14:22:42 <gpellegrino> dhall: content specification for a true webtoon may be more performant
14:23:36 <gpellegrino> ... I would split this PR from "webtoons", this is about how FXLs should be displayed with rendition-flow: continuos
14:23:58 <ivan> q-
14:24:54 <gpellegrino> duga: we raised this issue two years ago and suggested to move it to the CG
14:25:21 <gpellegrino> ... we should have done it two years ago
14:25:48 <tzviya> ack du
14:25:50 <gpellegrino> ... I think also that webtoons is a trademark and we should not use it
14:25:51 <tzviya> ack had
14:26:35 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: to respond to David, no one asked for continuos scrolling outside of webtoons
14:26:57 <shiestyle> q+
14:27:05 <gpellegrino> ... continuos scrolling is difficult to get with EPUBs, and even more with EPUB FXLs
14:27:09 <gpellegrino> q+
14:28:01 <gpellegrino> ... what I see that happen around the world is to tweak the format for doing things that are outside of the standard
14:28:03 <gpellegrino> q-
14:28:36 <gpellegrino> ... I don't think that hacking something is a good approch
14:29:29 <gpellegrino> ... I think is better just to say "this is a webtoon"
14:29:50 <gpellegrino> ... and manage that publication in a specific way
14:30:09 <gpellegrino> ... instead of tweaking a metadata that was intended for other stuff
14:30:37 <gpellegrino> shiestyle: In Japan we what to find a simple way to make comics in EPUBs
14:30:56 <shiestyle> q?
14:31:01 <tzviya> ack shiestyle
14:31:06 <gpellegrino> ... we want to separate this PR with minor changes to the spec
14:31:06 <ivan> q+
14:31:50 <gpellegrino> wendy: I think it is important to speak with Amazon (Kindle) on this
14:32:13 <gpellegrino> ... to understand if this solution is good enough
14:32:23 <Hadrien> q+
14:32:30 <gpellegrino> q+
14:32:59 <shiestyle> ack ivan
14:33:05 <gpellegrino> ivan: Hadrien propose to add a new metadata to say that the publication is a "webtoon"
14:34:04 <gpellegrino> shiestyle: actually we already have special metadata for webtoons
14:34:09 <shiestyle> ack had
14:34:23 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: in Japan there are a lot of profiles
14:34:37 <gpellegrino> ... with XML prefixes to add information
14:35:06 <gpellegrino> ... personally I don't think it is the way to move to metadata
14:35:44 <gpellegrino> ... we have metadata conformsTo metadata (used for accessibility), we may use it for telling the publication conforms to webtoon
14:35:58 <gpellegrino> ... it doesn't break anything
14:36:10 <duga> q+
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14:36:34 <shiestyle> ack gpe
14:37:44 <shiestyle> ack duga
14:38:38 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: for adding metadata to EPUB is not required to change the specs, you can use the meta tag
14:39:06 <tzviya> q+
14:39:18 <gpellegrino> ... other comment about process, I think is better to move trough the CG, as we're doing for accessible FXL
14:39:53 <Hadrien> q+
14:40:10 <shiestyle> ack tzviya
14:40:20 <gpellegrino> duga: I don't like the conformsTo approach, in any cases we need a spec to say what to do, in both cases we'll end up with RSs that will display broken webtoons
14:41:12 <gpellegrino> tzviya: I agree with Brady, if we have to create a new profile, we don't have the charter to do this, we can only maintain the spec that is already published
14:41:23 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
14:41:23 <shiestyle> ack had
14:41:36 <gpellegrino> ... I think we should have everything in the main spec
14:42:38 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: to respond to Brady, I think that implementing vertical scroll is very expensive, specialized RSs are extracting images from the HTML and display them in canvas or similar
14:42:57 <gpellegrino> ... no matter what we do, it will be broken in most of reading systems
14:43:23 <shiestyle> q+
14:43:25 <gpellegrino> ... or we may suggest them a simpler way to ingest the EPUB and display only images
14:43:32 <ivan> q+
14:44:53 <shiestyle> ack shie
14:44:54 <ivan> ack shiestyle
14:45:00 <shiestyle> ack ivan
14:45:12 <gpellegrino> shiestyle: I understand the performance issue, I think we should separate this discussion from the PR and wait for the Amazon comment
14:45:42 <gpellegrino> ivan: Hadrien, do you think the additional metadata is in addition to the PR?
14:45:56 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: no, it is instead of the PR
14:46:16 <ivan> q+
14:46:53 <dhall> q+
14:47:51 <tzviya> +1 to wendy
14:47:56 <Hadrien> q+
14:48:06 <gpellegrino> wendy: I understand Hadrien's point, a new metadata may lead to exotic values
14:48:23 <gpellegrino> ... where publisher expect some type of rendition
14:48:24 <tzviya> q+ to remind about dictionaries
14:48:27 <shiestyle> ack ivan
14:48:55 <gpellegrino> q+
14:49:02 <gpellegrino> q-
14:49:21 <gpellegrino> ivan: I think for the moment we'll not merge the PR
14:49:37 <gpellegrino> ... in the meantime I think we may work on test cases
14:50:28 <gpellegrino> ... and implementations, to be sure that it is feasible
14:50:34 <shiestyle> ack dhall
14:51:06 <gpellegrino> dhall: does the PR specify a MUST or MAY conformance?
14:51:47 <shiestyle> ack had
14:51:51 <gpellegrino> wendy: a MAY, before that rendition-flows was not available for reflowable
14:52:09 <gpellegrino> ... not you can use that value for fixed layout
14:52:10 <duga> q+
14:53:01 <duga> q-
14:53:03 <gpellegrino> dhall: so a RS that does not support webtoons will display the publication in separated pages
14:53:36 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: In Japan there are already different profiles that create stuff on top of EPUBs
14:53:46 <gpellegrino> ... I think we should look at them
14:53:49 <dhall> q+
14:54:32 <gpellegrino> ... at the same time I think webtoons are quite different from the other type of publications, and requires some extra research
14:55:09 <shiestyle> ack tzviya
14:55:09 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to remind about dictionaries
14:55:34 <shiestyle> ack dhall
14:56:14 <gpellegrino> dhall: I think we are not in line with the semantic of the content... webtoons are different from web comics
14:56:33 <gpellegrino> ... so having a demo may be useful
14:58:26 <gpellegrino> wendy: I'll make a video
14:58:53 <gpellegrino> shiestyle: I'll contact Amazon for partecipating to the next meeting
14:58:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/02-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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