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16:57:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:57:34 <Zakim> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
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17:02:10 <plinss> present+
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17:03:05 <astearns> https://app.rallly.co/invite/K6gNLmEjKMZB
17:03:05 <TabAtkins> present+
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17:03:19 <emeyer> present+
17:03:21 <kbabbitt> present+
17:03:24 <emilio> present+
17:03:24 <chris> present+
17:03:39 <YehonatanDaniv> present+
17:03:44 <Frances> I can scribe today
17:04:31 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6900#issuecomment-1894132753
17:04:31 <github-bot> Topic: Republishing Tasks Permathread
17:04:31 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6900.
17:04:59 <Frances> Alan: First on the Agenda is FPWD for css-viewport-1
17:05:28 <Frances> Emilio: Something might be worse than doing, but we can republish it. Place for things in the spec that are linkable.
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17:05:53 <Frances> Alan: Inclined to publish now and zoom stuff later.
17:05:57 <florian> q+
17:06:09 <Frances> PROPOSAL: Publish  FPWD for css-viewport-1
17:06:50 <Frances> Florian: Section 3 viewport, is it light?
17:07:02 <Frances> Alan: We already published the section
17:07:03 <chris> rrsagent, here
17:07:03 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-css-irc#T17-07-03
17:07:07 <Frances> Alan: Any objections?
17:07:14 <Frances> Alan: None and resolved.
17:07:18 <dbaron> Present+
17:07:28 <Frances> RESOLVED: Create FPWD for css-viewport-1
17:07:49 <Frances> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD for css-viewport-1
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17:08:14 <jfkthame> present+
17:08:18 <Frances> Alan: Who wants to talk about display mode?
17:08:21 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9260
17:08:22 <github-bot> Topic: [mediaqueries-5] Add display-mode for document picture-in-picture
17:08:22 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9260.
17:08:32 <TabAtkins> https://github.com/WICG/document-picture-in-picture
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17:09:14 <Frances> Tab: There is a spec for the picture-in-picture feature. For the document, should it be exposed as a display mode to format differently? For how browser is wrapping you.
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17:09:20 <emilio> q+
17:09:25 <Frances> PROPOSAL: Add display-mode for document picture-in-picture
17:09:28 <florian> q-
17:09:29 <astearns> ack Frances
17:09:31 <astearns> ack florian
17:09:34 <astearns> ack emilio
17:10:07 <Frances> Emilio: Alot of the preexisting values for this would be reasonable. How do the values intersect such as in full screen?
17:10:31 <Frances> Tab: Mutually exclusive, if not right, we can figure it out.
17:10:58 <Frances> Emilio: Not opposed. Probably file an issue in a variety of cases.
17:11:41 <Frances> Tab: Reviewed by people, about 60 issues.
17:12:05 <Frances> Alan: A couple avenues such as specifying what's there in the wiki-spec and take on the issues or in the repository
17:12:26 <Frances> Tab: All picture-in-picture api, displayed as pip or not?
17:12:58 <Frances> Alan: Any other comments on taking on a picture-in-picture media query?
17:13:04 <miriam> present+
17:13:18 <Frances> PROPOSAL: Adopt picture-in-picture media query
17:13:31 <Frances> Alan: Any objections?
17:13:38 <Frances> RESOLVED: Adopt picture-in-picture media query
17:13:52 <astearns> github-bot: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9674
17:13:52 <github-bot> astearns, Sorry, I don't understand that command.  Try 'help'.
17:13:58 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9674
17:13:59 <github-bot> Topic: [css-mediaqueries] Inverted-colors media feature can cause problems on semi-transparent images.
17:13:59 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9674.
17:14:16 <Frances> Alan: Next issue is about Inverted-colors media feature
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17:15:21 <Frances> Emilio: Seemed familiar, spec has ui style that manually applies a filter to an image and a picture and video and so on. Seems good but it is a problem for a bunch of images, if images with same color as text it is invisible. Agree to not inverting and react to preferences themselves.
17:15:44 <emeyer> q+
17:15:46 <Frances> Emilio: Unfortunate for visual images, makes sense to not invert because aligns with how we treat other user preferences.
17:15:51 <astearns> ack emeyer
17:16:17 <TabAtkins> +1 in general, auto-responding to the query is confusing (especially when there's a mix of behaviors between browsers, ugh)
17:16:52 <Frances> Eric: Had to do unininverting and reinvertting, browser should not be trying to guess. Authors should deal with them and not at browser level.
17:16:57 <argyle> q+
17:17:14 <astearns> ack argyle
17:17:43 <kbabbitt> +1 to favoring author control
17:17:46 <Frances> Adam: Chrome has tried automatic dark-mode, not to just invert, but intelligently invert. Should leave the value in the authors control, many edge cases and nesting scenarios.
17:18:14 <Frances> PROPOSAL: Remove requirement for the ua stylesheet rule for inverted-colors.
17:18:22 <Frances> Alan: Any objections or comments?
17:18:30 <Frances> RESOLVED: Remove requirement for the ua stylesheet rule for inverted-colors
17:18:41 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9422
17:18:41 <github-bot> Topic: [selectors] Is it intentional that :has(:is()) is different from :has()?
17:18:41 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9422.
17:19:33 <oriol> present+
17:19:47 <Frances> Emilio: Feels weird to make :has() to escape the scope of the subject, fine with no change, slow path in every engine if wrong.
17:20:16 <Frances> Alan: Is there something we can put in the specification to make it more clear?
17:20:30 <Frances> Emilio: Clarifying is good
17:21:04 <Frances> Tab: Behavior is what you get when combining two features. If something that can be added, put in the spec.
17:21:16 <Frances> Alan: Any other comments?
17:21:29 <Frances> PROPOSAL: No change to :has() behavior
17:21:35 <Frances> Alan: Any objections?
17:21:41 <Frances> RESOLVED: No change to :has() behavior
17:21:44 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5684
17:21:44 <github-bot> Topic: [selectors] What is the reasoning for ignoring defaullt namespaces only on the subject for :is() / :where() / :not()?
17:21:44 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5684.
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17:22:11 <Frances> Alan: Namespaces for :is() / :where() / :not()
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17:22:44 <Frances> Emilio: Compact wise is probably okay, Tab's answer is good but weird that nested selector list has weird parsing behavior.
17:23:35 <Frances> Tab: Context if you write a selector without a namespace, with a url, will apply namespace to all selectors unless specifically overridden, even non type selector in the element name.
17:23:42 <TabAtkins> a.foo
17:23:52 <TabAtkins> a:is(.foo, .bar)
17:24:14 <TabAtkins> foo|a:is(.foo, .bar)
17:24:27 <Frances> Tab: Issue is if you start with a.foo and then want to have foo or a bar class, normally second selector matches same or more elements. In presence of default namespace selector, it might not.
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17:25:32 <TabAtkins> foo|a.foo => foo|a:is(.foo, .bar)
17:25:46 <Frances> Tab: If it wasn't for the special case, they could get the default namespace rather than .foo namespace. Selector might not match anything. Do not apply now special namespace rule to their arguments.
17:25:55 <dholbert> present+
17:26:05 <TabAtkins> foo|a.foo
17:26:10 <TabAtkins> foo|a:nth-child(n of .foo)
17:26:35 <Frances> Tab: Some related issues about other spots such as nth child of the selector. Expect to match all elements, with default namespace rule, it might not match anything.
17:27:28 <Frances> Tab: Alternative don't want backwards incompatible, can remove default namespace rule to only use when there is a type selector. Namespaces in general are rarely used across css, could fix by removing the special rule.
17:28:02 <Frances> Emilio: What is the implementation style of the rule?
17:28:08 <astearns> ack dbaron
17:29:00 <Frances> David: Probably well implemented for :not for the subject part of it. Referencing type selector, should be explicit about including universal selectors.
17:29:09 <Frances> Tab: default selector is a universal selector
17:29:25 <Frances> David: :hover and *:hover are weird.
17:29:43 <Frances> Oriol: If using featureless element, need to use universal selector to match them.
17:29:53 <Frances> Emilio: Only on quirks mode?
17:30:12 <dbaron> s/are weird/would now be different, which is a little weird/
17:30:16 <TabAtkins> :host *:host
17:30:17 <Frances> Oriol: For :hover, they are the same except for some cases can add universal selector to change the meaning.
17:30:40 <Frances> Tab: :host and *:host might not match a featureless element.
17:31:14 <Frances> Emilio: Ignore default namespace unless global or type selector.
17:31:20 <dbaron> s/Referencing type selector/When you talk about a type selector/
17:31:31 <dbaron> s/about including/about whether or not you're including/
17:32:21 <Frances> Tab: We can close the issue with no change and open another issue with changing the underlying rule entirely to be mutually exclusive with some of the other issues with the :is rule, need to be consistent and intuitive. Why do we have the rule in first place need to explain.
17:32:39 <Frances> Alan: Need to describe if backwards compatible.
17:33:12 <Frances> Emilio: Do we want it in the right most compound, why only in the right most compound?
17:33:53 <Frances> Tab: The one that is selecting the element, namespace rule probably invented to restrict to the default namespace, would make slightly harder to use the selector?
17:34:31 <Frances> David: Might be a function of how the selectors evolve over time, not taking combinators, and now taking them.
17:34:46 <Frances> Tab: Does make sense to apply to all components.
17:35:03 <Frances> David: rule to not apply to is part after last combinator makes sense.
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17:35:33 <Frances> Tab: Intuition is to use :is and :where as syntax rules, such as preceding combinator, treated same as outer
17:36:01 <Frances> David: when there is a default namespace, should only be applied in one space in the selector, if overriding place in both spaces.
17:36:11 <Frances> David: right now outside of :where and not inside
17:36:49 <Frances> Emilio: :Has is different, is doesn't match. nth is different from :where. Interesting to see where in browsers it's implemented, possible non intentional implementation.
17:37:17 <dbaron> s/if overriding place in both spaces/so if you're overriding it you don't have to override it the same way in both places/
17:37:36 <Frances> Emilio: fine with no change, can address in another issue. Might not be specific to Firefox. We could try simplifying it.
17:37:42 <dbaron> David: also, regarding :has(), I can certainly see :has() working differently
17:38:25 <dbaron> s/space in the selector/place in the selector for a particular element/
17:38:41 <Frances> PROPOSAL: Close issue #5684 no change
17:38:49 <Frances> Alan: Can make the rule consistent, open a new issue on backwards compatibility or remove rule entirely
17:39:02 <astearns> ACTION: TabAtkins to create a new issue for removing the rule
17:39:09 <Frances> RESOLVED: Close issue #5684 with no change
17:39:29 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9600
17:39:29 <github-bot> Topic: [css-nesting] Specificity of contextually-invalid selectors.
17:39:29 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9600.
17:39:33 <Frances> Alan: next is css-nesting
17:39:44 <matthieud> q+
17:40:37 <Frances> Emilio: About what happens when nesting invalid pseudo-element. Keeps sort of being valid, reuse selector from the outside. Behavioral specificity of nesting doesn't seem defined.
17:40:49 <astearns> ack matthieud
17:41:12 <TabAtkins> I have no opinion on this issue, happy to clarify/edit whatever the group wants.
17:41:28 <Frances> matthieu: Weird that specificity is taken in account. Keep invalid selector, we don't take specificity in account.
17:42:18 <Frances> Emilio: seems fine to me, would make behavior of nesting and not nesting as consistent, makes sense. Part of the way to prevent is by sharing memory, need to make specificity not count.
17:42:57 <Frances> Alan: Defining a behavior shouldn't have too much backwards compatibility risk possibly.
17:43:22 <Frances> Emilio: Right now are consistent in reusing the specificity, other cases like :has(:has)
17:43:31 <Frances> Alan: Any other comments or questions?
17:44:18 <Frances> PROPOSAL: Specify contextually-invalid selectors via nesting
17:44:39 <Frances> Emilio: nesting doesn't have specificity at the moment.
17:44:41 <astearns> PROPOSAL: contextually-invalid selectors have a specificity of zero
17:45:35 <Frances> Matthieu: Specific wording?
17:45:49 <Frances> Emilio: Make it behave the same as the regular selector list
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17:46:57 <Frances> RESOLVED: contextually-invalid selectors have a specificity of zero
17:47:25 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9337
17:47:26 <github-bot> Topic: [css-contain][css-sizing] ScrollIntoView a descendant of element with content-visibility:auto
17:47:26 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9337.
17:48:30 <Frances> Emilio: some interoperability, need to generalize to arbitrary ancestors. ScrollIntoView should update layout to scroll into view to be visible.
17:49:00 <Frances> Alan: Change definition relevant to the user to add a condition via scrollintoview to be relevant.
17:49:11 <flackr> q+
17:49:13 <vmpstr> q+
17:49:22 <astearns> ack flackr
17:49:24 <Frances> Emilio: Make all ancestors relevant as well.
17:49:59 <Frances> flack:Might not fully fix problem, scrolling away from is also visibility:auto, other content might change
17:50:06 <Frances> Emilio: ideally it shouldn't
17:50:35 <Frances> flack: scrolling may pass over other content
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17:51:20 <Frances> Emilio: If scrolling to the hundredth item and scrolling into view, make hundredth item relevant and the ancestors. The siblings from 50 to 100 might not be relevant to the user and can change size.
17:51:50 <Frances> flack: We need to be adjusting the scale-target
17:52:19 <Frances> Alan: Not an issue with the proposed resolution
17:52:50 <Frances> flack: instead of calculating target, we can update the target with the location. Such as when the target scrolls into view.
17:52:55 <astearns> ack vmpstr
17:53:45 <Frances> vlad: Can scollintoview without an animation, still need the resolution. The position of the element may be locked in size-overflow, and might not approach the viewport.
17:54:22 <Frances> vlad: Content-visibility:auto state changes, might fire an event in those cases.
17:55:09 <Frances> flack: reasonable argument for accepting proposed resolution, possible other resolutions.
17:55:17 <Frances> Alan: any other comments?
17:55:59 <Frances> PROPOSAL: ScrollIntoView a descendant of element with content-visibility:auto relevant to the use, should also affect ancestors.
17:56:33 <astearns> RESOLVED: add ScrollIntoView to the definition of relevant to the use, should also affect ancestors.
17:56:56 <vmpstr> s/to the use/to the user/
17:57:59 <astearns> github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9121
17:57:59 <github-bot> Topic: [css-transforms-1] The computed value of `transform` if the transformed element is display:none
17:57:59 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9121.
17:59:32 <astearns> topic: none
17:59:35 <Frances> Emilio: All 3 options might have a problem, last time thought of 3 options and wrote disadvantages to each.
17:59:48 <astearns> https://app.rallly.co/invite/K6gNLmEjKMZB
18:00:37 <dholbert> s/Emilio/dbaron/
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