18:59:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:59:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/09-aria-apg-irc
18:59:34 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
18:59:45 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
18:59:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:59:47 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
19:00:28 <CoryJoseph> apologies for the last minute regrets. Home sick today
19:02:37 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-apg
19:02:40 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:02:45 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:03:18 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/09-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
19:04:11 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
19:04:11 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:04:11 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
19:04:11 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/January-9%2C-2024-Agenda
19:04:11 <howard-e> present+
19:04:11 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
19:04:11 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
19:04:11 <Jem> present+
19:04:14 <Matt_King> present+
19:04:37 <CurtBellew> present+
19:05:20 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:05:28 <jugglinmike> Jem: Our next meeting with be January 16
19:05:41 <jugglinmike> Topic: Plan for 2023 retroperspective
19:06:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was thinking we could plan a retrospective for next week
19:06:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't want to catch anyone off guard; I'd like to give folks some time to think about it
19:07:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: During that meeting, I'd like to first review and recognize accomplishments
19:07:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: ...then spend some time learning how the Task Force could function better
19:07:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Are there other goals we should think about having during that meeting?
19:08:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we can use just those two questions
19:08:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'd like everyone to think about them, especially the things that aren't going so well
19:09:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll work on a review of what happened in 2023. I'll talk with Jem more about this
19:09:14 <jugglinmike> Topic: Developing 2024 roadmap
19:09:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'd like to talk about how we prioritize work
19:09:23 <Jem> Discuss prioritization framework.
19:09:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think we can get through this topic in this meeting, but I'd like to start talking, at least
19:10:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I came up with seven different sources of work
19:10:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They're listed in the agenda
19:11:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 1. ARIA 1.3 and new 2024 features (aria-actions, AT notifications, Listview, changes to modal),
19:11:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 2. Requests for new types of guidance (e.g., high contrast support practices, integrating "Using ARIA")
19:11:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 3. Requests for enhancement to existing content
19:11:37 <Jem> we have 31 issues with label of bug
19:11:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 4. Fixing known bugs
19:11:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 5. Content design: Design of Landmark pages, pages with multiple examples (e.g., listbox, grid, button)
19:11:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 6. Gaps in coverage of ARIA 1.1 and 1.2
19:11:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 7. Improving code quality
19:12:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Across these, what should our prioritization framework be?
19:12:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should probably consider which patterns people use the most
19:12:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have some metrics along these lines through the website access logs
19:13:11 <dmontalvo> q+
19:13:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should we have a framework for making these decisions or just "shoot from the hip"?
19:13:47 <jugglinmike> Jem: I'm looking at statistics for the APG site from the w3c.
19:14:07 <jugglinmike> Jem: I think bug fixing should be a top priority. We have over 30 right now
19:14:44 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
19:15:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Based on how we've worked in the past, addressing all the current bugs could take 6 to 12 months
19:16:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Meanwhile, there are some 43 things in ARIA 1.1 and ARIA 1.2 that aren't covered
19:16:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm just asking how we make prioritization decisions given all these different sources of work
19:18:26 <jugglinmike> Jem: This reminds me of creating a community group, as Matt_King recently proposed
19:18:38 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
19:18:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, that's still on my to-do list. I think that could feed into the "bug fixing" work
19:19:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It's a whole different dimension of improving how the Task Force works--finding new ways to get more people involved
19:19:30 <dmontalvo> q?
19:20:52 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: It's hard to make blanket statements about the relative importance of bugs and features
19:21:41 <jugglinmike> dmontalvo: Yeah, it will take some dedicated analysis. I'm willing to help with that
19:22:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So having a "bug importance" or "bug severity" scale would be very important
19:24:05 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/labels/bug
19:24:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In our issue categorization, I have made bugs separate from editorial problems like inaccuracies
19:24:42 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aopen+label%3Abug+and+example+of+pattern+implementation
19:25:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe for a future agenda, we can discuss the prioritization framework just for bugs
19:25:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll create an action item for that
19:25:23 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aopen+label%3A%22example+of+pattern+implementation%22+and+%22bug%22
19:25:32 <jugglinmike> dmontalvo: You can assign me
19:25:51 <Jem> 16 open for both, bug and example of pattern implementation
19:27:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: we don't have a way of prioritizing gaps in coverage or feature requests
19:28:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have two "next steps," here. I will help make those things happen and get them on future agendas
19:28:41 <Jem> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/about/coverage-and-quality/#roles_with_no_examples_label
19:29:14 <dmontalvo> ack me
19:30:02 <Jem> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/about/coverage-and-quality/
19:32:42 <jugglinmike> Topic: Status of Site Updates
19:32:53 <jugglinmike> Jem: We have a candidate for January publication
19:33:03 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: PR 2775: Feed Example: Move display of example from separate page into standard APG example page by ariellalgilmore
19:33:16 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2775
19:33:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: All checks are passing
19:33:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And there's some activity from Ari just a few days ago. Awesome
19:33:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Jem requested changes
19:34:26 <jugglinmike> Jem: My feedback was addressed a long time ago
19:34:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Could you approve it, then?
19:35:01 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria-apg
19:35:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we still need editorical review (from me) and functional review from CurtBellew
19:35:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And a visual design review from Jem
19:35:46 <jugglinmike> Jem: howard-e has reviewed tests
19:36:04 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can do my part. CurtBellew can you perform the functional review?
19:36:08 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Yes
19:36:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And I will perform the editoral review.
19:37:02 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue triage
19:37:18 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+created%3A%3E2021-08-15+no%3Alabel++sort%3Aupdated-desc
19:37:46 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2890
19:37:49 <jugglinmike> Subtopic:  clarifying "No ARIA is better than bad ARIA"
19:37:57 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2890
19:38:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is this a valid issue or not?
19:39:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Can someone explain the logic behind the first reading, "Bad ARIA is the best ARIA" ?
19:41:11 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: If you read it is "[there is] no ARIA [that] is better than bad ARIA"
19:41:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think I'm kind of understanding, now, but it seems like a unlikely reading
19:42:19 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Maybe for folks for whom English is a second language
19:42:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Would it be better to rephrase as "Not using AIRA is better than misusing ARIA" ?
19:43:54 <jugglinmike> s/AIRA/ARIA/
19:44:30 <jugglinmike> present+ siri
19:45:12 <jugglinmike> siri: I prefer "No ARIA is better than bad ARIA" over "Not using ARIA is better than misusing ARIA"
19:46:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, my goal for this meeting was mostly to learn if this was a valid issue
19:47:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It sounds like most folks here think it is difficult to misread, so I'm tempted to close it
19:47:29 <jugglinmike> Jem: I don't know about that. I think it's valid. I think it's worth thinking about rephrasing
19:48:03 <jugglinmike> Jem: the reporter suggested another alternative, "bad ARIA is worse than no ARIA"
19:48:16 <dmontalvo> +1 to Jem
19:49:02 <jugglinmike> Jem: The current phrasing is kind of cocky, honestly
19:49:45 <Jem> although I love the current catch phrase. ;-)
19:50:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay! I'm marking this issue as "agenda" and as "editorial"
19:51:16 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: menubar-navigation example aria-expanded without aria-controls/aria-owns
19:51:23 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2888
19:53:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The reporter is saying that the submenus are not DOM descendants of the parent menu item. That is different from trees, but is it allowed?
19:53:50 <jugglinmike> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:54:32 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: It doesn't have to be a descendant in practice. However, I don't know if the spec actually says that it has to be a child in the same way it says for a tree
19:55:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They're saying it's not a DOM descendant and it doesn't have controls, so there's basically no relation
19:57:30 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: When you're getting information like "how many menu items", it does that based on the nesting of those menus. When you use a link, the same thing happens
19:58:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems that in our example, there is no relationship between the controlling menu item and the controlled menu item. Is that a problem?
19:58:47 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: You can break them out. ARIA doesn't require us to put ARIA controls on there. We don't do it; the question is, should we?
19:59:55 <jugglinmike> s/ ARIA doesn't require us to put ARIA controls on there. We don't do it; the question is, should we?//
20:00:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King:  ARIA doesn't require us to put ARIA controls on there. We don't do it; the question is, should we?
20:00:09 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: I would recommend not
20:00:37 <jugglinmike> siri: I learned some time back that as of now, the screen readers don't do anything with ARIA controls.
20:01:19 <jugglinmike> siri: What is the purpose of adding ARIA controls rather than "expanded" and "collapsed"?
20:02:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems to me that if there's a focus, it can impact how focus moves across the document
20:03:38 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: My understanding is that ARIA controls is useful when it renders content
20:04:18 <jugglinmike> s/content/content [...]/
20:04:21 <jugglinmike> [Bryan_Garaventa's explanation proceeded faster than could be scribed]
20:07:12 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I thought that the point of ARIA controls was to allow devs to take something clickable and express that the clickable element controls some content
20:07:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've marked this as a question, assigned it to me, and added it as an agenda item.
20:08:12 <jugglinmike> Jem: It will be great to have more conversation! I'm always controlled about ARIA controls
20:08:36 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:08:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Matt_King, howard-e, Daniel, Jem, CurtBellew, siri, Bryan_Garaventa
20:08:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:08:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/09-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:08:46 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:08:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
20:08:51 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:08:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items