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11:14:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:14:14 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
11:14:14 <lisa> q?
11:14:19 <lisa> clear q
11:14:23 <lisa> ack next
11:16:08 <lisa> agenda+ ACtions at https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#heading=h.h4l5bbbl6v8e and litary review at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cu_qVP1WBz2TbsrAjLbbeb55RAlJmu9kfHamriL1Ocs/edit#gid=1686096268
11:16:59 <lisa> agenda+  2023 COGA Review of CTAUR - Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirements
11:17:48 <lisa> agenda+ mental health,  How to put them in the document (branch etc)
11:18:18 <lisa> agenda+ reviced proposals from mental health at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4tI9SV4lsDXzCdaEAXExeL3f061__Sy06lfGV9mLvY/edit#heading=h.b3qyg4vvkf1
11:19:12 <lisa> agenda order is 1, 3, 2, 4
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15:00:53 <lisa> agenda?
15:03:11 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
15:03:15 <lisa> topic: stucture
15:04:02 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:04:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/18-coga-minutes.html lisa
15:04:33 <Rain> Version of the document the community group was adding notes to: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13mqcr4pNlhg-9jQ8gDX1b3KFFUCCq2xHe5Sq1sPeDFY/edit#heading=h.cusjdumtyv7i
15:13:49 <Rain> bad storm
15:13:52 <Rain> power just went out
15:13:55 <lisa> i can hear u. can u hear me?
15:44:44 <lisa> q?
15:44:56 <lisa> agender?
15:45:20 <lisa> agenda?
15:49:38 <lisa> regrets: EA
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15:58:11 <Rain> present+
15:59:14 <Rashmi> present+
16:00:20 <lisa> present+
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16:02:20 <lisa> scribe+ Rashmi, lisa
16:02:26 <Jennie> present+
16:02:40 <Jennie> * I can scribe if I can stop at 10 before the hour
16:02:56 <Jennie> scribe+ Jennie
16:02:56 <lisa> scribe+ jenny, lisa,
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16:03:05 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
16:03:07 <Becca_Monteleone> present+
16:03:22 <Jennie> Lisa: put your name down on weeks you are likely to be attending, and able to scribe
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16:03:25 <lisa> next item
16:03:47 <Jennie> Lisa: let's review what people may want to work on over the holidays and updates
16:04:05 <Jennie> ...let's talk about the research
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16:04:40 <julierawe> present+
16:04:42 <Jennie> Rebecca: In mid-January having time on the agenda would be good to discuss final changes.
16:05:03 <Jennie> Lisa: Abbey was doing the lit review on ADHD.
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16:05:24 <Jennie> Lisa: I started identifying papers.
16:05:29 <DavidSwallow> present+
16:05:34 <Jennie> ...Put your name next to one you find interesting.
16:05:55 <Jennie> ...I saw some that mentioned the topics people have selected.
16:06:11 <Jennie> ...Correction - it wasn't Abbey, it was Rebecca
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16:06:43 <Jennie> ...Becca - you could put your name next to those. That's why I am volunteering you.
16:06:59 <Jennie> ...The user group research sometimes had information on the same topics as you are doing for the issue paper.
16:07:39 <Jennie> Becca: that sounds great. Thank you for doing that.
16:07:50 <Jennie> Lisa: Abbey - can you add the papers that you are looking at into this database.
16:08:02 <lisa> database at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cu_qVP1WBz2TbsrAjLbbeb55RAlJmu9kfHamriL1Ocs/edit#gid=1686096268
16:08:19 <Jennie> Abbey: I will look at them. There may be a bit of a delay.
16:08:30 <Jennie> Lisa: OK. I did a search in Google Scholar.
16:08:41 <Jennie> ...I put it into the research plan
16:08:45 <lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#heading=h.bls0z8ekj5k3
16:08:53 <Jennie> Lisa: there is an appendix.
16:09:07 <Jennie> ...We agreed on minimal outline of what needs to be done for a literary review.
16:09:16 <Jennie> ...And we are saving the search terms as we use them.
16:09:37 <Becca_Monteleone> q+
16:09:39 <Jennie> ...This information is included under Appendix 3. Search terms used
16:09:41 <Jennie> q?
16:10:00 <lisa> search terms go to https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wu0WYcvCpp-zIz2NzPk2AuTJOrzgh3T4sKQgzCa10ps/edit#heading=h.tzwiganz83f7
16:10:02 <Jennie> Lisa: please add any search terms you use.
16:10:16 <Jennie> ...If anyone has questions during the holidays, I will be working.
16:10:18 <Jennie> q?
16:10:30 <lisa> ack next
16:10:51 <Jennie> Becca: I have my search strategy for the 2 papers I was using. It is on the bottom of my drafts. Should I add it here?
16:10:58 <Jennie> Lisa: Yes, it is helpful if it is added here.
16:11:23 <Jennie> ...List which issue paper it is for.
16:11:43 <Jennie> ...The citation is really important. Then we can make the format of the citation consistent later if helpufl.
16:11:51 <Jennie> ...The key take aways is also important.
16:12:06 <Jennie> ...This should include what we need to remember.
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16:12:29 <Jennie> ...Some people will have no time over the next 2 weeks due to holidays.
16:12:36 <tburtin> present+
16:12:57 <Jennie> ...But if you do, please mark your name in, and fill out whatever you can
16:13:10 <lisa> database at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cu_qVP1WBz2TbsrAjLbbeb55RAlJmu9kfHamriL1Ocs/edit#gid=1686096268
16:13:11 <Jennie> ...That is an action item for all of us
16:13:32 <Jennie> ...I can meet on Monday or Tuesday if someone needs a bit of help getting information into the spreadsheet.
16:13:50 <Jennie> ...If the spreadsheet is daunting, you can do the review, put it in an email, send it to the list.
16:13:59 <Jennie> ...Someone else can enter it into the spreadsheet.
16:14:18 <Jennie> ...Mental health we will discuss as part of the agenda.
16:14:32 <Jennie> ...Color items are on the agenda.
16:14:44 <Jennie> ...Rashmi is nearly finished the item in table 1.
16:14:58 <Jennie> ...She is also working on a paper related to triggers and the research we have.
16:15:12 <Jennie> ...We need someone to take the lead on the social media algorthym issues.
16:15:50 <Jennie> Rain: We are working on the feedback from the Community group. We are doing the user testing in January and February of 2024.
16:16:17 <Jennie> Lisa: the session we had before is looking really good for the Structure and Content group!
16:16:38 <Jennie> ...I should take an action to make sure we show it to Roy.
16:17:01 <Jennie> ...Roy can say if it can be as a publication. The sooner we ask the better.
16:17:05 <Jennie> Rain: that makes sense.
16:17:18 <Jennie> ...Images is on hold until we get the structure figured out.
16:17:28 <Jennie> Lisa: There is a working session on Thursday.
16:17:33 <Jennie> Rain: yes, for an hour and a half.
16:17:43 <Jennie> ...sorry, Wednesday.
16:17:58 <Jennie> Lisa: and after that we are starting the holiday break.
16:18:05 <Jennie> Julie: regarding WCAG 3
16:18:14 <julierawe> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/34
16:18:16 <Jennie> ...On January 16th there will be a discussion
16:18:30 <Jennie> ...Do we have the right set of criteria to evaluate conformance models.
16:18:36 <kirkwood> present+
16:18:48 <Jennie> ...There are 22 conformance models proposed - we are not evaluating them yet.
16:19:01 <Jennie> ...We are looking at do we have the right criteria to evaluate them.
16:19:16 <Jennie> ...7 criteria (reads from the github issue)
16:19:31 <Jennie> ...Question: is there anything missing? Anything that should be revised or removed.
16:19:45 <Jennie> ...My proposal to the task force is to put a comment on this github thread
16:20:18 <Jennie> ...We could add the equity one we have discussed - to support equity
16:20:35 <Jennie> ...If there is anything else that is essential to include, I can send it to the group
16:20:52 <Jennie> ...Then, we can have the group go and thumbs up the comment to show how important it is
16:21:01 <Jennie> Lisa: It is probably also important that we attend.
16:21:07 <Jennie> Julie: What is most important
16:21:29 <Jennie> ...preferably well before January 16th, we have a comment about "this is what COGA thinks" then we get lots of thumbs up
16:21:44 <Jennie> ...It is a show of support, and leads up to that January 16th discussion
16:21:55 <Jennie> ...It is far better for us to get out in front of the conversation
16:22:15 <Jennie> ...Then, as many COGA members as can, go in to github and thumbs up our comment
16:22:34 <lisa> Q?
16:22:46 <Jennie> ...I think we want equity to stay in the list.
16:22:58 <Jennie> ...There is one about complexity that is a bit worrisome to me
16:23:07 <Jennie> ...What if user testing is important for some aspects?
16:23:20 <Jennie> ...If you can't quickly to an automated test, we want to make sure there is equity
16:23:33 <Jennie> Lisa: My take is that we should put in both of those comments
16:23:42 <Jennie> ...1 with the validity that we need equity separately.
16:23:57 <Jennie> ...Because some people think it valid for it not to be equitable (in the past)
16:24:07 <Jennie> ...Then either separately, or thumbs up your comment.
16:24:15 <Jennie> ...I agree, the complexity is very worrying
16:24:35 <Jennie> ...For things that don't belong in a checklist
16:24:50 <Jennie> Julie: Keep in mind: what are the big things for evaluating
16:25:30 <Jennie> ...We could add a comment stating we would like to know more about complexity, so it doesn't favor only automated testing
16:25:54 <Jennie> ...We want it to be different from previous versions of WCAG 2 because we do want complexity as an option sometimes
16:26:02 <Jennie> Lisa: Yes, let's put them in as separate comments.
16:26:16 <Jennie> ...People can always comment on your comment, or just thumbs up it
16:26:23 <Jennie> ...And please send to the list.
16:26:33 <Jennie> ...Then people can take a moment to participate.
16:26:43 <Jennie> Julie: I will send that to the list, including instructions.
16:27:01 <Jennie> ...If there is other information that others on the call feel we should comment on, then please let me know.
16:27:11 <Jennie> Lisa: Our next meeting is January 8th - is that too late?
16:27:34 <Jennie> Julie: we can talk about it on January 8th, and add a 3rd comment at that time. Yes, please put time on the agenda for it.
16:27:55 <Jennie> Lisa: I also think that members can also comment, without waiting for consensus. Is that correct?
16:28:08 <Jennie> Julie: I agree. And, it is great to have others reviewing.
16:28:27 <Jennie> ...If someone has an idea, please add it to github, or email me.
16:29:21 <Jennie> Lisa: there can be an institutional type of exclusion, because some user testing is not reliable.
16:29:31 <Jennie> ...We have to be careful about that
16:29:39 <Jennie> ...Reliability and complexity.
16:29:53 <Jennie> ...These need to be tested to make sure they don't exclude some user groups.
16:30:05 <Jennie> Julie: great. I will add those into the comments I add into github.
16:30:06 <lisa> next item
16:30:37 <Jennie> Lisa: We have changes that the mental health group would like into the content.
16:30:49 <Jennie> ...I think Eric has made a branch where he is putting in the corrections from an issue.
16:30:58 <Jennie> ...Where do we want to put in the changes from the mental health group?
16:31:07 <Jennie> ...Same branch? Will that get complex?
16:31:18 <Jennie> ...Any github experts here?
16:31:31 <Jennie> ...So, we don't know. We will need Eric here, so we know what he has done.
16:31:37 <Jennie> ...Rashmi - do you have a preference?
16:31:54 <Jennie> Rashmi: this is new for me.
16:32:06 <Jennie> Lisa: We have the latest version of Making Content Usable in github.
16:32:15 <Jennie> ...Different branches work on different sections.
16:32:25 <Jennie> ...When multiple people are working, there can be conflicts.
16:32:38 <Jennie> ...We may need to accept Eric's pieces, then start a new branch.
16:32:49 <Jennie> ...I think the next thing to do is to speak to Eric.
16:32:56 <Jennie> ...He is not on the call.
16:33:20 <Jennie> ...I think we also want to check with Roy.
16:33:34 <Jennie> ...I think the secret is regular "commits" but I will need to check with Eric and Roy.
16:33:48 <Jennie> ...I will put this on the agenda for January 8th, but it may get pushed to the following meeting.
16:33:51 <Jennie> ...Is that ok?
16:34:02 <Jennie> ...I can also ask Roy tomorrow.
16:34:10 <lisa> next item
16:34:40 <Jennie> David S: I will show you the document that COGA produced.
16:35:16 <Jennie> ...Over the last year or more, COGA has reviewed the Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirements
16:35:22 <Jennie> ...We refer to this a CTAUR
16:35:33 <Jennie> ...This is looked at by RTF - another task force
16:35:53 <Jennie> ...I have been taking COGA's comments and suggestions and adding the to RTQF's github
16:36:05 <Jennie> ...Then, I have been in liaison with them as they review.
16:36:15 <Jennie> ...I have some feedback on what they have found so far.
16:36:24 <Jennie> ...I am just the message here, relaying their comments
16:36:31 <lisa> gogle doc is at Where do we want to put in the changes from the mental health group new brach. New branch, regular comits
16:36:33 <Jennie> ...I will take any feedback and comments back to them
16:36:49 <Jennie> David S: Issue 59: introducing a new section called "Common Pitfalls"
16:36:58 <lisa> sorry . google doc is at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CJhBYRI-zk2rl_mohHZ63xAGZxzpDMxhHhXT66bjFBI/edit#heading=h.k68hk35zpgfq
16:37:05 <Jennie> ...This is a proposal for an entirely new section
16:37:31 <Jennie> ...This was rejected by RTQF because they felt it is too generic, and they feel it is already in CTAUR as part of a later version
16:37:44 <lisa> q?
16:37:49 <Jennie> ...Janina took an action to find where they have already covered this content, then will close the comment.
16:38:04 <Jennie> Lisa: Can we have the link to where it was closed?
16:38:09 <Jennie> ...the github issue?
16:38:59 <Jennie> Lisa: She is going to demonstrate that everything we wanted here is in here?
16:39:01 <Jennie> David S: Yes
16:39:10 <Jennie> Lisa: do you have a link to the latest version of CTAUR as well?
16:39:12 <Jennie> David S: Yes
16:39:13 <DavidSwallow> https://github.com/w3c/ctaur/issues/59
16:39:21 <Jennie> Lisa: David, do you think it is in there?
16:39:29 <Jennie> David S: I am not sure. It is dotted about.
16:39:45 <Jennie> ...I get what they are saying about it being general advice.
16:39:58 <DavidSwallow> https://www.w3.org/TR/ctaur/
16:40:36 <Jennie> David S: Janina has summarized it in the github thread
16:40:54 <Jennie> ...specific enhancements would be appreciated.
16:40:59 <Jennie> Lisa: We did, though
16:41:04 <Jennie> ...We made the bullet points
16:41:19 <Jennie> ...They have user needs and requirements.
16:41:39 <Jennie> ...We have made it very specific, going through Content Usable, things that fail
16:41:50 <Jennie> ...Use familiar terms, avoid making the user learn new terms
16:42:19 <Jennie> ...Don't make the user learn new terms for editing
16:42:27 <Jennie> ...These are specific examples
16:42:37 <Jennie> ...These are not just generic comments.
16:42:55 <Jennie> ...I don't think saying "have a clear interface" in the introduction is similar.
16:42:59 <lisa> Q?
16:43:02 <Jennie> ...What do other people think?
16:43:15 <lisa> This document outlines various accessibility-related user needs, requirements and scenarios for web-based collaboration tools. These typically include one or more specific collaborative features such as real-time content editing by multiple authors, support for comments annotations, and revision control. The Cloud-based office application suites from Google and Microsoft are well-known examples of such collaboration tools.  The accessibility user needs[CUT]
16:44:18 <Jennie> Lisa: Who thinks that Janina's point is correct - that it is already discussed and this is already addressed?
16:44:32 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/ctaur/#collaboration-tools
16:44:36 <Jennie> ...Who thinks it was not already addressed?
16:45:26 <Jennie> Lisa: I am not hearing any comments.
16:45:35 <Jennie> David S: There is a lot to process.
16:46:04 <Jennie> Julie: I am trying to understand. We raised concerns that we feel were not adequately covered. And Janina thinks they were adequately covered?
16:46:14 <Jennie> Lisa: this is in reference to a specific section.
16:46:30 <Jennie> ...We suggested adding a section (Common pitfalls).
16:46:42 <Jennie> ...It could be called something else.
16:46:59 <Jennie> ...It is about what things are and how to use them.
16:47:09 <Jennie> ...Then we have information about what this includes
16:47:22 <Jennie> ...Example: not requiring multiple tabs and windows to complete a task.
16:47:50 <Jennie> ...Other examples are around language specific to an interface that are not commonly used.
16:48:22 <Jennie> ...And makes suggestions when new processes are required, how to handle this
16:49:34 <julierawe> q+
16:49:36 <Jennie> ...We have had examples in our work where after instructional sessions, a few weeks later, many in our group had difficulty participating in those processes
16:50:16 <Jennie> Julie: Thank you for the background, Lisa.
16:50:36 <Jennie> ...As I look at the current draft, it has 20 things, and broken into different sections.
16:50:48 <Jennie> ...I am not seeing how those common pitfalls map to the current draft.
16:51:14 <Jennie> ...Could we ask for a "map" of where they feel they are already addressing these points because at this time it is not apparent to us.
16:51:21 <Jennie> ...I find this a difficult document to look at
16:51:29 <Jennie> ...What we have raised are the "big picture" things
16:51:43 <Jennie> *Note: can someone take over scribing now? I need to leave
16:52:03 <Jennie> Julie: Is Janina asking for new user needs and design patterns?
16:52:13 <Jennie> David S: I think that is what Janina took an action to do.
16:52:26 <Jennie> ...So I think that is fine to ask for that.
16:53:20 <lisa> lisa: we added the section becuse we didnt see where it fits.
16:55:22 <lisa> david: no 58: use of the case of wisigig. we sugested explaining it. THey felt it was clear to the target adence.
16:55:32 <kirkwood> it’s a very old term
16:56:00 <lisa> FYO coment was maid by Rain, because it is such an outdated term
16:56:05 <abbey> I just asked my dev husband if he knows it, and he has not idea what it means. He has been in the industry 5yrs
16:56:08 <lisa> Rain: not widely used anymore
16:56:46 <lisa> no longer commenly understood by designers unless you are old and used to use dos
16:57:13 <lisa> John. agrees
16:57:23 <lisa> Abby has no idea what it meens. old term
16:57:32 <lisa> Lisa doesnt realy care
16:57:56 <Rain> q+
16:58:03 <lisa> ack next
16:58:07 <kirkwood> WYSWYG is a meaningless term now
16:58:07 <lisa> ack next
16:58:43 <lisa> rain: i am very concern that the audence is only people who have been in the indistry a long time
16:58:45 <kirkwood> +1 to Rain
16:59:26 <lisa> david: issue 57 and 56: clarify the scope and update the tech
17:00:10 <lisa> they dont want to discus specific products. but they may include white bourd
17:00:14 <lisa> q+
17:01:05 <lisa> lisa: clarfy will they calrify what is included. becuse we wernt sure what to include
17:01:22 <kirkwood> collaborative design tools?
17:01:30 <lisa> what type of thing is included?
17:02:15 <lisa> is slack inclded? that type thing?
17:03:19 <julierawe> I have to drop — have a good weekend, everybody!
17:03:56 <lisa> John: eveything is a colabritive tool. how is this a defined.
17:04:27 <lisa> lisa: genral comment on their document.
17:05:39 <lisa> people did not know if gihub was included.
17:06:04 <lisa> john colaberation functionalion and assisted support is realy importent with a helper
17:06:20 <lisa> very much part of the combination needed. that might be why we care
17:06:59 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
17:07:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/18-coga-minutes.html lisa
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