IRC log of coga on 2023-12-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:14:09 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
11:14:13 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
11:14:14 [Zakim]
Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
11:14:14 [lisa]
11:14:19 [lisa]
clear q
11:14:23 [lisa]
ack next
11:16:08 [lisa]
agenda+ ACtions at and litary review at
11:16:59 [lisa]
agenda+ 2023 COGA Review of CTAUR - Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirements
11:17:48 [lisa]
agenda+ mental health, How to put them in the document (branch etc)
11:18:18 [lisa]
agenda+ reviced proposals from mental health at
11:19:12 [lisa]
agenda order is 1, 3, 2, 4
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15:03:11 [Rain]
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15:03:15 [lisa]
topic: stucture
15:04:02 [lisa]
RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:04:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate lisa
15:04:33 [Rain]
Version of the document the community group was adding notes to:
15:13:49 [Rain]
bad storm
15:13:52 [Rain]
power just went out
15:13:55 [lisa]
i can hear u. can u hear me?
15:44:44 [lisa]
15:44:56 [lisa]
15:45:20 [lisa]
15:49:38 [lisa]
regrets: EA
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15:59:14 [Rashmi]
16:00:20 [lisa]
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16:02:20 [lisa]
scribe+ Rashmi, lisa
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* I can scribe if I can stop at 10 before the hour
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scribe+ Jennie
16:02:56 [lisa]
scribe+ jenny, lisa,
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16:03:07 [Becca_Monteleone]
16:03:22 [Jennie]
Lisa: put your name down on weeks you are likely to be attending, and able to scribe
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16:03:25 [lisa]
next item
16:03:47 [Jennie]
Lisa: let's review what people may want to work on over the holidays and updates
16:04:05 [Jennie]
...let's talk about the research
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16:04:42 [Jennie]
Rebecca: In mid-January having time on the agenda would be good to discuss final changes.
16:05:03 [Jennie]
Lisa: Abbey was doing the lit review on ADHD.
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16:05:24 [Jennie]
Lisa: I started identifying papers.
16:05:29 [DavidSwallow]
16:05:34 [Jennie]
...Put your name next to one you find interesting.
16:05:55 [Jennie]
...I saw some that mentioned the topics people have selected.
16:06:11 [Jennie]
...Correction - it wasn't Abbey, it was Rebecca
16:06:37 [kirkwood]
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16:06:43 [Jennie]
...Becca - you could put your name next to those. That's why I am volunteering you.
16:06:59 [Jennie]
...The user group research sometimes had information on the same topics as you are doing for the issue paper.
16:07:39 [Jennie]
Becca: that sounds great. Thank you for doing that.
16:07:50 [Jennie]
Lisa: Abbey - can you add the papers that you are looking at into this database.
16:08:02 [lisa]
database at
16:08:19 [Jennie]
Abbey: I will look at them. There may be a bit of a delay.
16:08:30 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK. I did a search in Google Scholar.
16:08:41 [Jennie]
...I put it into the research plan
16:08:45 [lisa]
16:08:53 [Jennie]
Lisa: there is an appendix.
16:09:07 [Jennie]
...We agreed on minimal outline of what needs to be done for a literary review.
16:09:16 [Jennie]
...And we are saving the search terms as we use them.
16:09:37 [Becca_Monteleone]
16:09:39 [Jennie]
...This information is included under Appendix 3. Search terms used
16:09:41 [Jennie]
16:10:00 [lisa]
search terms go to
16:10:02 [Jennie]
Lisa: please add any search terms you use.
16:10:16 [Jennie]
...If anyone has questions during the holidays, I will be working.
16:10:18 [Jennie]
16:10:30 [lisa]
ack next
16:10:51 [Jennie]
Becca: I have my search strategy for the 2 papers I was using. It is on the bottom of my drafts. Should I add it here?
16:10:58 [Jennie]
Lisa: Yes, it is helpful if it is added here.
16:11:23 [Jennie]
...List which issue paper it is for.
16:11:43 [Jennie]
...The citation is really important. Then we can make the format of the citation consistent later if helpufl.
16:11:51 [Jennie]
...The key take aways is also important.
16:12:06 [Jennie]
...This should include what we need to remember.
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16:12:29 [Jennie]
...Some people will have no time over the next 2 weeks due to holidays.
16:12:36 [tburtin]
16:12:57 [Jennie]
...But if you do, please mark your name in, and fill out whatever you can
16:13:10 [lisa]
database at
16:13:11 [Jennie]
...That is an action item for all of us
16:13:32 [Jennie]
...I can meet on Monday or Tuesday if someone needs a bit of help getting information into the spreadsheet.
16:13:50 [Jennie]
...If the spreadsheet is daunting, you can do the review, put it in an email, send it to the list.
16:13:59 [Jennie]
...Someone else can enter it into the spreadsheet.
16:14:18 [Jennie]
...Mental health we will discuss as part of the agenda.
16:14:32 [Jennie]
...Color items are on the agenda.
16:14:44 [Jennie]
...Rashmi is nearly finished the item in table 1.
16:14:58 [Jennie]
...She is also working on a paper related to triggers and the research we have.
16:15:12 [Jennie]
...We need someone to take the lead on the social media algorthym issues.
16:15:50 [Jennie]
Rain: We are working on the feedback from the Community group. We are doing the user testing in January and February of 2024.
16:16:17 [Jennie]
Lisa: the session we had before is looking really good for the Structure and Content group!
16:16:38 [Jennie]
...I should take an action to make sure we show it to Roy.
16:17:01 [Jennie]
...Roy can say if it can be as a publication. The sooner we ask the better.
16:17:05 [Jennie]
Rain: that makes sense.
16:17:18 [Jennie]
...Images is on hold until we get the structure figured out.
16:17:28 [Jennie]
Lisa: There is a working session on Thursday.
16:17:33 [Jennie]
Rain: yes, for an hour and a half.
16:17:43 [Jennie]
...sorry, Wednesday.
16:17:58 [Jennie]
Lisa: and after that we are starting the holiday break.
16:18:05 [Jennie]
Julie: regarding WCAG 3
16:18:14 [julierawe]
16:18:16 [Jennie]
...On January 16th there will be a discussion
16:18:30 [Jennie]
...Do we have the right set of criteria to evaluate conformance models.
16:18:36 [kirkwood]
16:18:48 [Jennie]
...There are 22 conformance models proposed - we are not evaluating them yet.
16:19:01 [Jennie]
...We are looking at do we have the right criteria to evaluate them.
16:19:16 [Jennie]
...7 criteria (reads from the github issue)
16:19:31 [Jennie]
...Question: is there anything missing? Anything that should be revised or removed.
16:19:45 [Jennie]
...My proposal to the task force is to put a comment on this github thread
16:20:18 [Jennie]
...We could add the equity one we have discussed - to support equity
16:20:35 [Jennie]
...If there is anything else that is essential to include, I can send it to the group
16:20:52 [Jennie]
...Then, we can have the group go and thumbs up the comment to show how important it is
16:21:01 [Jennie]
Lisa: It is probably also important that we attend.
16:21:07 [Jennie]
Julie: What is most important
16:21:29 [Jennie]
...preferably well before January 16th, we have a comment about "this is what COGA thinks" then we get lots of thumbs up
16:21:44 [Jennie]
...It is a show of support, and leads up to that January 16th discussion
16:21:55 [Jennie]
...It is far better for us to get out in front of the conversation
16:22:15 [Jennie]
...Then, as many COGA members as can, go in to github and thumbs up our comment
16:22:34 [lisa]
16:22:46 [Jennie]
...I think we want equity to stay in the list.
16:22:58 [Jennie]
...There is one about complexity that is a bit worrisome to me
16:23:07 [Jennie]
...What if user testing is important for some aspects?
16:23:20 [Jennie]
...If you can't quickly to an automated test, we want to make sure there is equity
16:23:33 [Jennie]
Lisa: My take is that we should put in both of those comments
16:23:42 [Jennie]
...1 with the validity that we need equity separately.
16:23:57 [Jennie]
...Because some people think it valid for it not to be equitable (in the past)
16:24:07 [Jennie]
...Then either separately, or thumbs up your comment.
16:24:15 [Jennie]
...I agree, the complexity is very worrying
16:24:35 [Jennie]
...For things that don't belong in a checklist
16:24:50 [Jennie]
Julie: Keep in mind: what are the big things for evaluating
16:25:30 [Jennie]
...We could add a comment stating we would like to know more about complexity, so it doesn't favor only automated testing
16:25:54 [Jennie]
...We want it to be different from previous versions of WCAG 2 because we do want complexity as an option sometimes
16:26:02 [Jennie]
Lisa: Yes, let's put them in as separate comments.
16:26:16 [Jennie]
...People can always comment on your comment, or just thumbs up it
16:26:23 [Jennie]
...And please send to the list.
16:26:33 [Jennie]
...Then people can take a moment to participate.
16:26:43 [Jennie]
Julie: I will send that to the list, including instructions.
16:27:01 [Jennie]
...If there is other information that others on the call feel we should comment on, then please let me know.
16:27:11 [Jennie]
Lisa: Our next meeting is January 8th - is that too late?
16:27:34 [Jennie]
Julie: we can talk about it on January 8th, and add a 3rd comment at that time. Yes, please put time on the agenda for it.
16:27:55 [Jennie]
Lisa: I also think that members can also comment, without waiting for consensus. Is that correct?
16:28:08 [Jennie]
Julie: I agree. And, it is great to have others reviewing.
16:28:27 [Jennie]
...If someone has an idea, please add it to github, or email me.
16:29:21 [Jennie]
Lisa: there can be an institutional type of exclusion, because some user testing is not reliable.
16:29:31 [Jennie]
...We have to be careful about that
16:29:39 [Jennie]
...Reliability and complexity.
16:29:53 [Jennie]
...These need to be tested to make sure they don't exclude some user groups.
16:30:05 [Jennie]
Julie: great. I will add those into the comments I add into github.
16:30:06 [lisa]
next item
16:30:37 [Jennie]
Lisa: We have changes that the mental health group would like into the content.
16:30:49 [Jennie]
...I think Eric has made a branch where he is putting in the corrections from an issue.
16:30:58 [Jennie]
...Where do we want to put in the changes from the mental health group?
16:31:07 [Jennie]
...Same branch? Will that get complex?
16:31:18 [Jennie]
...Any github experts here?
16:31:31 [Jennie]
...So, we don't know. We will need Eric here, so we know what he has done.
16:31:37 [Jennie]
...Rashmi - do you have a preference?
16:31:54 [Jennie]
Rashmi: this is new for me.
16:32:06 [Jennie]
Lisa: We have the latest version of Making Content Usable in github.
16:32:15 [Jennie]
...Different branches work on different sections.
16:32:25 [Jennie]
...When multiple people are working, there can be conflicts.
16:32:38 [Jennie]
...We may need to accept Eric's pieces, then start a new branch.
16:32:49 [Jennie]
...I think the next thing to do is to speak to Eric.
16:32:56 [Jennie]
...He is not on the call.
16:33:20 [Jennie]
...I think we also want to check with Roy.
16:33:34 [Jennie]
...I think the secret is regular "commits" but I will need to check with Eric and Roy.
16:33:48 [Jennie]
...I will put this on the agenda for January 8th, but it may get pushed to the following meeting.
16:33:51 [Jennie]
...Is that ok?
16:34:02 [Jennie]
...I can also ask Roy tomorrow.
16:34:10 [lisa]
next item
16:34:40 [Jennie]
David S: I will show you the document that COGA produced.
16:35:16 [Jennie]
...Over the last year or more, COGA has reviewed the Collaboration Tools Accessibility User Requirements
16:35:22 [Jennie]
...We refer to this a CTAUR
16:35:33 [Jennie]
...This is looked at by RTF - another task force
16:35:53 [Jennie]
...I have been taking COGA's comments and suggestions and adding the to RTQF's github
16:36:05 [Jennie]
...Then, I have been in liaison with them as they review.
16:36:15 [Jennie]
...I have some feedback on what they have found so far.
16:36:24 [Jennie]
...I am just the message here, relaying their comments
16:36:31 [lisa]
gogle doc is at Where do we want to put in the changes from the mental health group new brach. New branch, regular comits
16:36:33 [Jennie]
...I will take any feedback and comments back to them
16:36:49 [Jennie]
David S: Issue 59: introducing a new section called "Common Pitfalls"
16:36:58 [lisa]
sorry . google doc is at
16:37:05 [Jennie]
...This is a proposal for an entirely new section
16:37:31 [Jennie]
...This was rejected by RTQF because they felt it is too generic, and they feel it is already in CTAUR as part of a later version
16:37:44 [lisa]
16:37:49 [Jennie]
...Janina took an action to find where they have already covered this content, then will close the comment.
16:38:04 [Jennie]
Lisa: Can we have the link to where it was closed?
16:38:09 [Jennie]
...the github issue?
16:38:59 [Jennie]
Lisa: She is going to demonstrate that everything we wanted here is in here?
16:39:01 [Jennie]
David S: Yes
16:39:10 [Jennie]
Lisa: do you have a link to the latest version of CTAUR as well?
16:39:12 [Jennie]
David S: Yes
16:39:13 [DavidSwallow]
16:39:21 [Jennie]
Lisa: David, do you think it is in there?
16:39:29 [Jennie]
David S: I am not sure. It is dotted about.
16:39:45 [Jennie]
...I get what they are saying about it being general advice.
16:39:58 [DavidSwallow]
16:40:36 [Jennie]
David S: Janina has summarized it in the github thread
16:40:54 [Jennie]
...specific enhancements would be appreciated.
16:40:59 [Jennie]
Lisa: We did, though
16:41:04 [Jennie]
...We made the bullet points
16:41:19 [Jennie]
...They have user needs and requirements.
16:41:39 [Jennie]
...We have made it very specific, going through Content Usable, things that fail
16:41:50 [Jennie]
...Use familiar terms, avoid making the user learn new terms
16:42:19 [Jennie]
...Don't make the user learn new terms for editing
16:42:27 [Jennie]
...These are specific examples
16:42:37 [Jennie]
...These are not just generic comments.
16:42:55 [Jennie]
...I don't think saying "have a clear interface" in the introduction is similar.
16:42:59 [lisa]
16:43:02 [Jennie]
...What do other people think?
16:43:15 [lisa]
This document outlines various accessibility-related user needs, requirements and scenarios for web-based collaboration tools. These typically include one or more specific collaborative features such as real-time content editing by multiple authors, support for comments annotations, and revision control. The Cloud-based office application suites from Google and Microsoft are well-known examples of such collaboration tools. The accessibility user needs[CUT]
16:44:18 [Jennie]
Lisa: Who thinks that Janina's point is correct - that it is already discussed and this is already addressed?
16:44:32 [lisa]
16:44:36 [Jennie]
...Who thinks it was not already addressed?
16:45:26 [Jennie]
Lisa: I am not hearing any comments.
16:45:35 [Jennie]
David S: There is a lot to process.
16:46:04 [Jennie]
Julie: I am trying to understand. We raised concerns that we feel were not adequately covered. And Janina thinks they were adequately covered?
16:46:14 [Jennie]
Lisa: this is in reference to a specific section.
16:46:30 [Jennie]
...We suggested adding a section (Common pitfalls).
16:46:42 [Jennie]
...It could be called something else.
16:46:59 [Jennie]
...It is about what things are and how to use them.
16:47:09 [Jennie]
...Then we have information about what this includes
16:47:22 [Jennie]
...Example: not requiring multiple tabs and windows to complete a task.
16:47:50 [Jennie]
...Other examples are around language specific to an interface that are not commonly used.
16:48:22 [Jennie]
...And makes suggestions when new processes are required, how to handle this
16:49:34 [julierawe]
16:49:36 [Jennie]
...We have had examples in our work where after instructional sessions, a few weeks later, many in our group had difficulty participating in those processes
16:50:16 [Jennie]
Julie: Thank you for the background, Lisa.
16:50:36 [Jennie]
...As I look at the current draft, it has 20 things, and broken into different sections.
16:50:48 [Jennie]
...I am not seeing how those common pitfalls map to the current draft.
16:51:14 [Jennie]
...Could we ask for a "map" of where they feel they are already addressing these points because at this time it is not apparent to us.
16:51:21 [Jennie]
...I find this a difficult document to look at
16:51:29 [Jennie]
...What we have raised are the "big picture" things
16:51:43 [Jennie]
*Note: can someone take over scribing now? I need to leave
16:52:03 [Jennie]
Julie: Is Janina asking for new user needs and design patterns?
16:52:13 [Jennie]
David S: I think that is what Janina took an action to do.
16:52:26 [Jennie]
...So I think that is fine to ask for that.
16:53:20 [lisa]
lisa: we added the section becuse we didnt see where it fits.
16:55:22 [lisa]
david: no 58: use of the case of wisigig. we sugested explaining it. THey felt it was clear to the target adence.
16:55:32 [kirkwood]
it’s a very old term
16:56:00 [lisa]
FYO coment was maid by Rain, because it is such an outdated term
16:56:05 [abbey]
I just asked my dev husband if he knows it, and he has not idea what it means. He has been in the industry 5yrs
16:56:08 [lisa]
Rain: not widely used anymore
16:56:46 [lisa]
no longer commenly understood by designers unless you are old and used to use dos
16:57:13 [lisa]
John. agrees
16:57:23 [lisa]
Abby has no idea what it meens. old term
16:57:32 [lisa]
Lisa doesnt realy care
16:57:56 [Rain]
16:58:03 [lisa]
ack next
16:58:07 [kirkwood]
WYSWYG is a meaningless term now
16:58:07 [lisa]
ack next
16:58:43 [lisa]
rain: i am very concern that the audence is only people who have been in the indistry a long time
16:58:45 [kirkwood]
+1 to Rain
16:59:26 [lisa]
david: issue 57 and 56: clarify the scope and update the tech
17:00:10 [lisa]
they dont want to discus specific products. but they may include white bourd
17:00:14 [lisa]
17:01:05 [lisa]
lisa: clarfy will they calrify what is included. becuse we wernt sure what to include
17:01:22 [kirkwood]
collaborative design tools?
17:01:30 [lisa]
what type of thing is included?
17:02:15 [lisa]
is slack inclded? that type thing?
17:03:19 [julierawe]
I have to drop — have a good weekend, everybody!
17:03:56 [lisa]
John: eveything is a colabritive tool. how is this a defined.
17:04:27 [lisa]
lisa: genral comment on their document.
17:05:39 [lisa]
people did not know if gihub was included.
17:06:04 [lisa]
john colaberation functionalion and assisted support is realy importent with a helper
17:06:20 [lisa]
very much part of the combination needed. that might be why we care
17:06:59 [lisa]
RRSAgent, publish minutes
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I have made the request to generate lisa
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