16:11:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:11:19 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-irc
16:30:53 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:46:40 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:48:44 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:49:48 <AndyS> Anyone know where the scribes list is kept? https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/blob/main/docs/scribes.md is 7 months old.
16:56:32 <ktk> AndyS: I rotate them in my head
16:56:57 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:57:01 <enrico> present+
16:58:02 <ktk> AndyS: I do go through the one you posted I think https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/blob/main/docs/scribes.md
16:59:47 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:59:47 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20231214T120000/
16:59:51 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:59:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two metings: [1]
16:59:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
16:59:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
16:59:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
16:59:52 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
16:59:55 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:59:59 <TallTed> present+
16:59:59 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly meeting
16:59:59 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:00:03 <TallTed> rrsagent, make logs public
17:00:09 <pchampin> zakim, start meeting
17:00:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:11 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
17:00:17 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
17:00:40 <ktk> scribe+
17:00:42 <ktk> present+
17:00:58 <ktk> Chair: Ora
17:01:07 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly short meeting
17:01:17 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:01:22 <eBremer> present+
17:01:25 <AndyS> present+
17:01:26 <ora> present+
17:01:39 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
17:01:39 <TallTed> s/scribe+/scribe: ktk
17:01:50 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
17:01:50 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:01:57 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
17:02:00 <ktk> meeting: RDF-star Working Group Weekly Meeting
17:02:02 <tl> present+
17:02:11 <AZ> present+
17:02:23 <niklasl> present+
17:02:34 <gkellogg> present+
17:03:03 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:03:03 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two metings: -- taken up [from 1]
17:03:34 <pchampin> present+
17:03:47 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
17:03:47 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:03:48 <gkellogg> s/metings/meetings/
17:03:50 <doerthe> present+
17:04:05 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
17:04:07 <ora> q?
17:04:20 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2023-11-30
17:04:25 <gkellogg> +1
17:04:26 <niklasl> +1
17:04:26 <ora> +1
17:04:28 <TallTed> it needs a s/metings/meetings/g :-)
17:04:28 <AndyS> +1
17:04:31 <tl> +1
17:04:35 <ktk> <ktk> +1
17:04:38 <TallTed> +1
17:04:57 <AZ> +0 (I was not there)
17:05:00 <pchampin> +1
17:05:01 <pfps> present+
17:05:01 <doerthe> +1
17:05:03 <enrico> +1
17:05:10 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2023-11-30
17:05:20 <gtw> present+
17:05:29 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:05:59 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2023-12-07
17:06:07 <ora> q?
17:06:17 <niklasl> +1
17:06:19 <gkellogg> +1
17:06:22 <AndyS> +1
17:06:22 <tl> +1
17:06:22 <pchampin> +1
17:06:23 <ora> +1
17:06:27 <doerthe> +1
17:06:29 <ktk> <ktk> +1
17:06:53 <TallTed> +1
17:06:57 <AZ> +0 (I wasn't there)
17:07:03 <eBremer> +1
17:07:09 <pfps> can pierre-antoine but a topic into these minutes?
17:07:28 <pfps> s/but/put/
17:07:47 <pfps> ... topic suggestion to follow
17:07:54 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
17:07:59 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:08:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:08:06 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2023-12-07
17:08:24 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:08:24 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:08:35 <TallTed> s/AndyS: I rotate them in my head/<ktk> AndyS, I rotate them in my head
17:08:45 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:08:49 <olaf> present+
17:09:09 <Souri> present+
17:09:14 <AndyS> q+
17:09:17 <pfps> ... probably something like "discussion on how to proceed"
17:09:26 <ktk> Ora: We did not converge on anything. There are a lot of interesting proposals on the table. As the chair, I wouldn't want to kill them off but the reality is we need to come to an agreement about the direction of our work. Lately there was more about Souris proposal. I'm not done with my analysis.
17:09:33 <ktk> ... It looks interesting.
17:09:37 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:09:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:09:44 <Souri> q+
17:09:44 <ktk> ... I understand the goals of it.
17:09:54 <ktk> ... I guess regarding that my question is about the existing RDF 1.1 semantics.
17:09:54 <ora> ack AndyS
17:10:10 <ktk> AndyS: Are we having a meeting next week? It's close to Xmas. And the next few weeks.
17:10:19 <ktk> q+
17:10:48 <TallTed> pchampin - I've messed up the pre-item-1 section beyond `s` fixing. please clean that after meeting ends
17:11:23 <ora> ack Souri
17:11:24 <ktk> q-
17:12:31 <tl> q+
17:12:35 <ktk> Souri: Please look at my slides I posted today at 4AM, not at the ones before.
17:13:30 <pchampin> I can attend next week, but I may not be available on 4 Jan
17:13:36 <Souri> +1 next week okay for me
17:13:41 <ktk> ora: Proposal is we keep the meetings on 21.12.23 and 4.1.24
17:13:45 <olaf> I wouldn't be available for any of the two meetings (neither next Thursday nor the Thursday after)
17:13:47 <enrico> I can attend next week
17:13:56 <ktk> ... and only the one in between is cancelled
17:13:59 <doerthe> I also can't attend both meetings
17:15:03 <pfps> 21 is fine by me
17:15:51 <ktk> Ora: We cancel the one on 28.12.
17:16:00 <ktk> Ora: So what are we gonna talk about.
17:16:05 <ora> ack tl
17:16:40 <pchampin> q+
17:16:47 <ktk> tl: To understand the timeline. The WG is scheduled until August. At what time would we have to publish something. What is the timeline for a decision?
17:16:49 <ora> ack pchampin
17:17:44 <gkellogg> q+
17:17:57 <ktk> pchampin: The steps for getting a recommendation is a proposed recommendation, which needs to be approved by the members. Before that we need a candidate recommendation. And we at least need 28 days for that. So in total at least 2 months, which is a very optimistic, non realistic scenario.
17:18:00 <AndyS> https://www.w3.org/2022/08/rdf-star-wg-charter/#timeline
17:18:38 <ktk> ... We are late based on our planing. Realisticly we will need a charter extension.
17:18:56 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:20:11 <ktk> gkellogg: A new charter needs to reflect the reality. But most important it needs to reflect what we want to do.
17:20:23 <TallTed> fwiw -- Souri's latest (4am) RDFn slides -- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Dec/att-0045/RDFn_Slides_Dec_14_2023.pdf
17:20:50 <ktk> ora: I would like to understand Souris proposal, with the RDF 1.1 semantics compatibility.
17:20:51 <niklasl> q+
17:20:53 <pchampin> q+
17:20:53 <ktk> q+
17:20:59 <pfps> q+
17:21:04 <AndyS> q+
17:21:08 <ora> ack niklasl
17:21:49 <pfps> +1 to considering use cases
17:21:49 <pfps> q-
17:21:49 <ktk> niklasl: Use cases. Not opposed to Souris proposal, pfps analyzed them and we need to keep them in mind. For this proposal and possibly some others.
17:22:08 <ktk> ... Also the proposals regarding the doubts of named graphs. They should be kept in mind in the background.
17:22:08 <ora> ack pchampin
17:22:31 <ktk> pchampin: +1 on use cases, I would like to see how it impacts the abstract syntax as well.
17:23:05 <ora> ack ktk
17:23:16 <ktk> ... I know Souri said it's not implementation focussed, but it still has very much an implementation taste for me. So I'm interested what changes it applies to the abstract syntax.
17:23:18 <pchampin> scribe+
17:23:49 <pchampin> ktk: we has a discussion with Ora about the impact of the different proposals,
17:24:02 <niklasl> +1 for meaning for abstract syntax (e.g. what "multiple asserted" within the same graph means)
17:24:08 <pchampin> ... we are taking about a 1.x version, we are not supposed to break things.
17:24:28 <TallTed> +1 semantic-style versioning. 1.2 should not break 1.1, 1.0. 2.0 branding will be needed for breaking changes.
17:24:33 <tl> q+
17:24:34 <ora> ack AndyS
17:24:51 <pchampin> ... I would like to look at each proposal in that perspective.
17:25:22 <AndyS> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Dec/0033.html
17:25:23 <pchampin> scribe-
17:25:56 <ktk> AndyS: I tried to summarize my take of the discussions and put them on the list.
17:26:09 <ora> ack tl
17:26:10 <ktk> ... I would like to talk about that.
17:26:43 <ktk> tl: RDF Star introduces a new term, this doesn't break RDF 1.x but it is a fundamental change.
17:27:19 <ktk> ora: if we say it doesn't break it means the existing RDF 1.1 continues to work as it has.
17:27:37 <enrico> q+
17:27:39 <ktk> ... can the next week's discussion be use to discuss Andys summary proposal and Souris work
17:27:46 <ora> ack enrico
17:28:09 <ktk> enrico: I was thinking about Andys proposal. This merits some discussions, it's a simple and clear proposal.
17:28:28 <TallTed> +1 discuss AndyS's post [1] and Souri's slides [2]. [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Dec/0033.html [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Dec/att-0045/RDFn_Slides_Dec_14_2023.pdf
17:28:44 <ktk> ... The minimal thing is to do what was proposed in the CG. Or we can go further like Andys proposal.
17:28:54 <ktk> ... We can discuss this further in the semantics TF tomorrow.
17:29:32 <ktk> Ora: What TallTed put in IRC is a very good description of the topics.
17:29:41 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:29:41 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -- taken up [from 2]
17:29:53 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
17:31:21 <ktk> pchampin: Shortnames now point to the latest REC, not the very latest.
17:31:37 <ktk> ... Some missmatches are made consistent as well.
17:31:42 <pfps> q+ to claim victory on 4/
17:31:49 <gkellogg> q+ what about https://www.w3.org/TR/n-triples/?
17:32:00 <gkellogg> q+ to ask what about https://www.w3.org/TR/n-triples/?
17:33:12 <ktk> gkellogg: n-triples does not seem to point to the right one yet.
17:33:31 <ktk> pchampin: Superseeding is still a mistery to me. I keep investigating.
17:33:44 <ktk> q?
17:33:52 <gkellogg> ack me
17:33:52 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to ask what about https://www.w3.org/TR/n-triples/?
17:34:15 <ora> ack pfps
17:34:15 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to claim victory on 4/
17:34:25 <niklasl> +1 for "no less than CR"
17:34:37 <ktk> pfps: I'm claiming victory on mine. I looked at all use cases from the summary page.
17:34:58 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
17:35:10 <ktk> AndyS: I claim victory on mine.
17:35:44 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:35:44 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 3]
17:35:55 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
17:36:24 <ora> q?
17:37:08 <TallTed> s/Superseeding/Superseding
17:37:22 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:37:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:37:42 <AZ> q+ to talk about PR on scribes.md not listed here
17:39:36 <TallTed> s/21.12.23 and 4.1.24/2023-12-21 and 2024-01-04
17:39:50 <TallTed> s/on 28.12/on 2023-12-28
17:40:53 <ora> ack AZ
17:40:53 <Zakim> AZ, you wanted to talk about PR on scribes.md not listed here
17:41:35 <pchampin> q+
17:41:56 <ora> ack pchampin
17:42:01 <TallTed> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/pull/97
17:42:23 <ktk> AZ: I have a pull-request on scribes but it does not show up
17:42:28 <ktk> ktk: I will take care of it, thanks.
17:42:44 <pchampin> action: pchampin to add the rdf-star-wg repo to the dashboard
17:42:51 <gb> Created -> action #100 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/100
17:42:51 <ktk> pchampin: I will add the RDF-Star WG repo to the dashboard
17:43:45 <TallTed> there are a few more languishing PRs on rdf-star-wg -- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-asc
17:43:54 <pfps> q+
17:44:15 <ktk> ora: The JSON one is still open.
17:44:22 <pfps> q-
17:44:28 <ktk> gkellogg: We reached an impasse
17:44:44 <ktk> pfps: someone will need to nail down the lexical space.
17:44:45 <niklasl> +1 for until more bandwith
17:45:04 <niklasl> s/bandwith/bandwidth/
17:45:14 <ktk> gkellogg: I suggest we defer this issue until we come to conclusion of the more fundamential issues.
17:45:37 <ktk> ora: agreed.
17:45:42 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:45:42 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Issue Triage, available at -- taken up [from 4]
17:45:50 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
17:46:10 <gkellogg> q+
17:46:24 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:46:43 <ktk> gkellogg: we better discuss https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/6
17:46:49 <AndyS> q+
17:47:17 <ktk> ... regarding that, once we finished case normalization & concepts, that brings back what do we do when normalizing n-quads and n-triples.
17:48:10 <ora> ack AndyS
17:48:56 <ktk> AndyS: yes, I thought we agreed on that and not mentioning particular case concepts in RDF concepts. Because it goes into canonicalization
17:49:15 <ktk> gkellogg: I will do a pull-request based upon that direction.
17:50:20 <ktk> q?
17:51:49 <gkellogg> https://xkcd.com/2867/
17:53:13 <ktk> AndyS: implicit timezones. For SPARQL or the web, implicit timezones are less useful. Proposal to make this explicit.
17:53:51 <pchampin> q+
17:53:51 <ktk> q?
17:54:01 <ora> ack pchampin
17:55:22 <ktk> pchampin: I sympathise with Andys reasoning. But setting it to Z makes it more likely to betray the authors intention.
17:55:38 <ktk> AndyS: that's the problem with deciding, someone is unhappy.
17:55:44 <pchampin> In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. https://peps.python.org/pep-0020/
17:56:06 <ktk> s/is unhappy/will be unhappy/
17:56:15 <ktk> Zakim, draft minutes
17:56:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', ktk
17:56:20 <niklasl> I don't *want* to refuse to guess, but I think that is the more careful (perhaps even more responsible) way
17:56:25 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:56:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
17:57:04 <gtw> w3c has a mastodon server
17:57:11 <gtw> w3c.social
17:57:50 <ktk> ora: W3C annouced to leave Twitter/X.
17:58:03 <TallTed> https://w3c.social/explore
17:58:03 <ktk> ... maybe we should have an account for our group at some point.
17:58:52 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
17:59:23 <ktk> regrets+ fsasaki
17:59:59 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:00:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
18:05:13 <AndyS> niklas - when sorting a mixture of with and without timezone, it's a choice point (undef comparisons go in a different place in the ordering)
18:06:44 <AndyS> I've linked the discussion here and removed "needs discussion" label for now.
<pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/12/21-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> s/AndyS: I do go through/<ktk> I do go through