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15:57:04 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
15:57:04 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
15:57:16 <AvneeshSingh> present+
15:57:25 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
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15:58:00 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Further editorial changes done in the principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata. (For  information purpose)
15:58:15 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Approach for techniques documents and localization.
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15:58:38 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ We are converging on the approach for Search and filtering.
15:59:04 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
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16:00:32 <CharlesL1> present+
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16:00:54 <ChrisOliverOttawa> present+
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16:01:05 <George> present+
16:01:10 <gautierchomel> present+
16:01:19 <CharlesL1> scribe+
16:01:40 <gpellegrino> present+
16:01:42 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:01:42 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Further editorial changes done in the principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata. (For  information purpose) -- taken up [from
16:01:45 <Zakim> ... AvneeshSingh]
16:02:18 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
16:02:21 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Editorial changes to principles Doc. Charles added some editorial improvements in a PR.
16:02:34 <CharlesL1> ... any other issues please open an issue.
16:02:36 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:02:36 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, AvneeshSingh
16:02:37 <ChrisOliverOttawa> q+
16:02:45 <CharlesL1> zakim, close item 1
16:02:45 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, CharlesL1
16:03:13 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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16:03:38 <CharlesL1> Chris: there is a closed group, ask permission to post a draft.
16:03:50 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
16:03:56 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:03:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approach for techniques documents and localization. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
16:03:57 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Comments are welcome.
16:04:13 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/217
16:04:16 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Next Localization
16:04:21 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/190
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16:04:46 <Naomi> present+
16:05:23 <CharlesL1> ..., for techniques pseudo code vs. descriptive plain english on decision tree.
16:05:40 <CharlesL1> ..., Gregorio has put in a pull request.
16:05:50 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
16:05:50 <CharlesL1> ..., we could also do XSLT
16:05:58 <gpellegrino> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/publ-a11y/gregorio-updates/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/techniques/onix-metadata/index.html#visual-adjustments
16:06:04 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:06:10 <CharlesL1> ..., this could help technical people potentially.
16:06:16 <mgarrish> present+
16:06:39 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
16:08:02 <CharlesL1> ..., Localization piece. workflow is English Text in descriptive text. so when retailers can use these descriptive sentences.  the localization should use these descriptive text. We don't want other languages to use a language translation as the base, it should always use English first. ie. English - French, English - Italian.  NOT French - Italian.
16:08:37 <CharlesL1> ..., we want to be able to also who did the localization, so end users can decide to "trust" that translation.
16:09:14 <CharlesL1> ..., v1 well defined english terms and the localization of these terms.  But in this version we are providing descriptive text.
16:09:36 <CharlesL1> ..., coming up with a huge list with all permutations is not feasible.
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16:10:05 <CharlesL1> ..., using a non-exhaustive text as examples.
16:10:47 <CharlesL1> ..., this also means a high dependence on the techniques.
16:10:47 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:10:52 <CharlesL1> ..., this is the overall plan.
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16:12:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:13:01 <CharlesL1> George: we want to identify in this repo template who has submitted the work, description of how it was developed, governmental group, or whatever process, the language that is used and expect each entry would get an ID to be referenced. so when they produce their Italian version and LIA worked say with 10 people, and it is in Italian, and the ID of that Entry in English Version produced.
16:13:10 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:13:17 <CharlesL1> ..., always has an ID that can be referenced.
16:13:42 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:13:44 <CharlesL1> ..., any thumbs up?
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16:13:56 <CharlesL1> Charles +1
16:14:01 <JonasLillqvist> +1
16:14:22 <Miiak> +1
16:14:25 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:14:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- We are converging on the approach for Search and filtering. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
16:14:40 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
16:14:42 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/196#issuecomment-1843300918
16:14:55 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: filtering and discovery
16:15:08 <CharlesL1> ..., from Rick Johnson.
16:15:36 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
16:15:49 <CharlesL1> ..., Recommending two sets min. metadata req. and extended metadata.  min metadata for all users / distributors. the extended for other groups.
16:16:22 <CharlesL1> ..., supports visual adjustments, non visual reading.  the extended set support for mathml, extended descriptions etc.
16:16:46 <CharlesL1> ..., the minimum and extended set of metadata please vote
16:17:00 <JonasLillqvist> +1
16:17:24 <Miiak> +1
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16:18:46 <AvneeshSingh> Good approved.
16:18:52 <CharlesL1> ..., the extended metadata for filtering / searching that a distributor would be able to filter on and present metadata they want for their specific user base.
16:19:15 <CharlesL1> RESOLVED: Using the Minimum / Extended Metadata for Filtering
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16:21:10 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: Minimum set - 3 metadata (discovery of any accessibility metadata provided. one search option any title with accessibility metadata.  main information ways to read: search titles non-visual reading, and visual adjustment.  Any title with a11y metadata, nonvisual and visual adjustments are the 3 main metadata set.
16:21:24 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: What about Conformance be added?
16:21:56 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: this is currently in the extended set. this can become manditory depending on the regional requirements.
16:22:16 <CharlesL1> George: is conformance going to be required for EAA?
16:22:46 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: from French authorities, currently just require the accessibility metadata
16:23:08 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:23:15 <CharlesL1> George: any implementer can always display / filter on any of the metadata.
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16:24:02 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:24:08 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: there can be 50/60 items to search by, but if we just elements about minimizing other facets. we want to have a min set that should be implemented everywhere.
16:24:21 <CharlesL1> q+
16:24:30 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
16:25:28 <CharlesL1> Charles: wasn't there a requirement for 3rd party certification for conformance?
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16:26:01 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:26:06 <Hadrien> present+
16:26:14 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: not to my knowledge, the legalization can always change so its not up to us.
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16:26:52 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:27:22 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: there is CMARK for the products, and EPUBs are in the services.
16:27:37 <JonasLillqvist> q+
16:27:49 <CharlesL1> ..., maybe Gregorio can send out an email to us if this is not the case.
16:27:50 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:28:10 <Hadrien> q+
16:28:25 <CharlesL1> JonasLillqvist: discovery of all titles with accessibility metadata, what about accessibilityFeature "unknown" or "none"
16:28:38 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:28:46 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: We can add a note to this.
16:29:00 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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16:29:51 <CharlesL1> Hadrien: for this filtering capability if we push for more a11y metadata there is a lot of volume with TOC, pageNavigation.  There may be 1/2 of this in a very large number of books, does this defeat the goal of this?  is it useful if we know if a publication has a TOC and that is all?
16:30:07 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Good question, any thoughts?
16:30:34 <CharlesL1> George: I know Internet Archive only has 1 entry with a TOC
16:30:47 <gautierchomel> q+
16:30:52 <CharlesL1> Hadrien: OVER 90% have a TOC.
16:31:38 <CharlesL1> ..., TOC 92% actual numbers, Print Pagination 15%
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16:31:49 <CharlesL1> ..., lot of books with just those two and nothing else.
16:32:25 <CharlesL1> George: when a11y metadata is unknown that there is only TOC for accessibility that a11y metadata is absent?
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16:34:01 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: not a lot of folks will document unknown or none.  but through inferences we could get minimum set, but should that be displayed?  We don't have the ability to say documented vs. inferred. could get it from ONIX few publishers are not capable, could extract the metadata from the OPF or inferred by looking inside the book.
16:34:13 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Inferred is out of scope.
16:34:15 <CharlesL1> q?
16:34:33 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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16:34:51 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: we must address this in the future.  this document is not only for Europe.
16:36:15 <Hadrien> q+
16:36:22 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:36:25 <CharlesL1> ..., EAA this will increase these facets as accessibility metadata will be required in 1-3 years this will grow due to the new legislation. It will be great when we need to revisit this since all the books in Europe have this metadata.
16:37:20 <JonasLillqvist> q+
16:37:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:37:46 <CharlesL1> Hadrien: aside from what the filter returns what is missing is expression of the need.
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16:38:05 <CharlesL1> ..., ex. I need publication which supports non-visual reading or enlarge the font size.
16:38:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:38:31 <CharlesL1> ..., the need for any accessibility at all -expression of need, maybe smaller subset.
16:39:20 <CharlesL1> JonasLillqvist: I think Hadrien has a point. but only the min set of 3 that are displayed I am not sure it will be useful to find / filter on the first facet.
16:39:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:39:27 <CharlesL1> q+
16:39:36 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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16:39:59 <gautierchomel> q+
16:40:22 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:40:31 <CharlesL1> Charles: used in conjunction with other filters to reduce the list size.
16:41:19 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: I understand this better now.
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16:41:52 <AvneeshSingh> proposed: minimum set of accessibility metadata should include Titles that support non visual reading and Titles that support visual adjustments.
16:41:54 <CharlesL1> ..., stick with 2 minium facets and add a note about accessibility metadata include it with which context may be intersting.
16:42:03 <CharlesL1> q?
16:42:44 <JonasLillqvist> +1
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16:42:45 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: please vote on this proposal
16:42:46 <Hadrien> +1
16:42:53 <CharlesL1> +1
16:43:09 <Miiak> +1
16:43:12 <AvneeshSingh> resolved
16:43:18 <CharlesL1> +1 George
16:44:32 <CharlesL1> gautierchomel: Discovery of a title where very view titles have any accessibility metadata to find them. we hope that vast majority with accessibility metadata it won't be very useful.
16:44:45 <CharlesL1> ..., could result in a false positive.
16:45:46 <CharlesL1> ..., complex to achieve you can't say any ONIX 196 code is present then we assume we have accessibility metadata.  I am pretty sure achieve a facet to view 40 + metadata properties.
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16:45:54 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: we will bring this to the editors call.
16:45:55 <Hadrien> q+
16:46:08 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
16:47:14 <CharlesL1> Hadrien: In our case, accessmode Sufficient for auditory the entire text is pre-recorded audio.  this is interesting there is a very large group of users where this would be very useful.
16:47:28 <CharlesL1> ..., having entire publication as audio.
16:47:56 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: the decision here is not carved in stone, we can revisit any of this in the future.  I like your point it is very important.
16:48:52 <CharlesL1> ..., prerecorded is a very strong use-case is this for all parts of the world or not is the question.  we can revisit.
16:49:25 <CharlesL1> Extended set of metadata.  main 4-5 examples for different kinds of user segments.
16:49:46 <CharlesL1> ..., we can do this in an incremental way.
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16:49:56 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:49:59 <CharlesL1> ..., a continuous process.
16:50:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:50:09 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Any objections?
16:50:24 <CharlesL1> RESOLVED
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16:50:44 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Any other business?
16:50:49 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agundum
16:50:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next agundum', AvneeshSingh
16:51:05 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
16:51:05 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Any other business. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
16:51:38 <CharlesL1> George: Acknowledgments are incomplete. I suggest, multiple people,
16:52:05 <AvneeshSingh> kerscher@montana.com
16:52:30 <CharlesL1> Folks can send your names for Acknowledgments.
16:52:41 <CharlesL1> ... to George
16:52:55 <CharlesL1> AvneeshSingh: Thanks everyone and Happy Holidays.
16:53:32 <CharlesL1>   rrsagent, make logs public
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16:54:01 <CharlesL1>   rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-pcg-a11y-minutes.html CharlesL1
16:54:25 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:56:48 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
16:56:48 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, CharlesL, ChrisOliverOttawa, George, gautierchomel, gpellegrino, Naomi, mgarrish, Hadrien
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