15:27:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pronunciation
15:27:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-pronunciation-irc
15:27:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:27:54 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), PaulG
15:27:55 <PaulG> zakim, agenda?
15:27:55 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
15:27:55 <PaulG> Agenda+ Agenda Review, Membership & Announcements
15:27:55 <PaulG> Agenda+ Review Use Case
15:27:55 <PaulG> Agenda+ Action Items
15:27:55 <PaulG> Agenda+ Github Issues and examples
15:28:00 <PaulG> Agenda+ Other Business
15:28:15 <PaulG> presnt+
15:28:19 <PaulG> present+
15:51:53 <S_Wood> S_Wood has joined #pronunciation
16:00:53 <Alan> Alan has joined #pronunciation
16:01:43 <matatk> matatk has joined #pronunciation
16:01:43 <Alan> present+
16:01:49 <S_Wood> present+
16:03:01 <matatk> present+
16:03:13 <matatk> https://github.com/w3c/pronunciation/wiki/Assessment-Examples-for-the-Break-Tag
16:04:15 <Dee> Dee has joined #pronunciation
16:04:49 <Dee> present+
16:04:58 <PaulG> zakim, take up next item
16:04:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review, Membership & Announcements -- taken up [from PaulG]
16:05:44 <PaulG> matatk: we are trying to check attendance at CSUN
16:06:06 <PaulG> ...is anyone attending?
16:11:07 <PaulG> zakim, take up next item
16:11:07 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Review Use Case -- taken up [from PaulG]
16:11:30 <PaulG> Alan: is there a reason we're using both commas and breaks?
16:12:20 <matatk> q+
16:12:52 <PaulG> Dee: sometimes the speech engine doesn't pronounce "A." but pronounces a short vowel 'a'
16:13:25 <PaulG> S_Wood: for clarity we should remove the comma
16:13:33 <PaulG> ack matatk
16:14:19 <PaulG> matatk: these being from real world examples is very valuable and I think we need to be careful to separate the broader context from the specific asks that we have from implementors
16:14:47 <PaulG> matatk: we don't want them to pinpoint what could be attributable to a bug in the TTS engine
16:15:07 <PaulG> matatk: the break in example 4 is not trying to be the comma
16:15:40 <PaulG> matatk: so we don't need to drop it except that it was being used as a workaround for a bug
16:15:59 <PaulG> Dee: totally makes sense to me
16:16:07 <matatk> ack me
16:16:21 <matatk> scribe+
16:16:30 <matatk> PaulG: We use @time in all of these examples.
16:16:30 <gb> https://github.com/time -> @time
16:16:42 <matatk> ... but users' AT/TTS have different rates of speech.
16:17:06 <matatk> ... There are encoded strengths for breaks of different lengths, e.g. after a comma would be a 'weak' break; after a sentence would be a 'strong' break.
16:17:21 <matatk> ... Devs may be more amenable to coding along the lines of those types of breaks, rather than times.
16:17:42 <matatk> ... This is an opportunity to use SSML as a starting point, but make the names for the breaks more intiutive.
16:17:52 <matatk> ... We could come up with our own terms, or use the ones they have.
16:18:13 <matatk> ... What are your thoughts about using strength over time?
16:18:31 <matatk> Alan: Is strength relative - you could adjust browser settings (baseline for them).
16:19:03 <matatk> PaulG: My understanding is it's flexible, so that if you adjust TTS base speed, then breaks are affected proportionally to speech speed factor (e.g. 1.5x)
16:19:29 <matatk> PaulG: A half-second break could sound like the end of the content to someone who's listening to 450wpm vs 100wpm
16:19:44 <matatk> Alan: Is 'weak' in Chrome going to be the same as 'weak' in Firefox?
16:19:50 <matatk> PaulG: Undetermined.
16:20:01 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:20:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk
16:20:09 <matatk> PaulG: I think it's based on the platform
16:20:14 <matatk> ... Even the spec isn't clear about what those tokens are.
16:20:45 <matatk> PaulG: If we only put @time in our examples, that's all we'll get.
16:20:45 <gb> https://github.com/time -> @time
16:21:02 <matatk> ... When someone's using their own AT, we want their AT to be able to honor that.
16:21:14 <matatk> ... Time may be OK with a built-in AT (maybe).
16:21:28 <matatk> ... Amazon implements it, and Google has strength.
16:21:58 <matatk> Alan: I've not used strength, nor rate, in our SSML. Most of our SSML is hand-rolled. When you use Web Speech API, you send a rate separately to SSML.
16:22:12 <matatk> Alan: Are we saying change some, because we want both?
16:22:14 <matatk> PaulG: Yes
16:22:17 <matatk> Alan: Great
16:22:50 <matatk> PaulG: If someone's concerned because these times aren't well specified, or for any reason, let us know
16:23:02 <matatk> Alan: I don't think Web Speech was designed to work with SSML
16:23:03 <matatk> q+
16:23:24 <matatk> PaulG: It may be that strength maps to something inside the TTS engine, and could be well receied
16:23:37 <matatk> s/receied/received/
16:23:49 <matatk> Dee: These examples were real-world examples relating to Amazon Polly use in ETS.
16:24:13 <PaulG> S_Wood: I should talk to mark about all this
16:24:36 <PaulG> ... for this document, we need a varied example base
16:25:21 <matatk> PaulG: Maybe not specified (strength) to avoid the spec being too English-centric.
16:25:53 <matatk> ... This could be a way to pivot away from time being a make-or-break feature for us.
16:26:13 <matatk> ... If we could get by with pauses being based on existing breaks, and you don't have to add a timer to your software, can we work with that?
16:26:15 <matatk> q?
16:26:26 <PaulG> https://github.com/w3c/pronunciation/wiki/Reasons-for-Delays-in-Spoken-Content
16:26:55 <matatk> PaulG: We'll have a meeting next week (unless nobody available) and then not for the following 2 weeks.
16:27:03 <matatk> When we come back, we should take some time to collate these examples.
16:27:19 <matatk> s/When we come back/PaulG: When we come back/
16:27:34 <matatk> PaulG: Then we can try to restart conversations with the vendors.
16:27:49 <matatk> Dee: Would be helpful to know how the browsers are implementing things like break strength in relation to prossidy.
16:27:57 <matatk> PaulG: Fantastic idea. Maybe we can do some outreach.
16:28:30 <matatk> ... We need devs who have knowledge of the inner workings.
16:28:41 <matatk> Dee: Important to understand how that works, and how time plays into that.
16:28:56 <matatk> ... If you look up the docs, both time and strength are mentioned.
16:29:09 <matatk> ... Time being optional attribute, strength not.
16:29:19 <matatk> Dee: That was from 2010's SSML REC
16:29:36 <matatk> present+ Dee
16:29:41 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk
16:29:54 <matatk> Dee: Could ask Mark?
16:30:04 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk
16:30:42 <matatk> PaulG: Is everyone here now able to be next week?
16:30:42 <matatk> Alan: +1
16:30:42 <matatk> Dee: +1
16:30:42 <matatk> matatk: +1
16:30:42 <matatk> PaulG: For next week, could you talk to Mark? Maybe he knows someone who knows?
16:31:05 <matatk> ... We need to be prepared to find different AT does it different ways.
16:32:12 <PaulG> matatk: we need to preserve the "real world" examples but filter it for the people we want to focus on specific implementation details
16:32:42 <PaulG> matatk: the two audiences, our internal folks and the external implementors we need to influence.
16:33:19 <PaulG> ...Alan mentioned how web speech API doesn't fully implement SSML
16:33:30 <PaulG> ...is that a path to solve our problems?
16:35:07 <PaulG> Alan: I just wrote a higher-level tool to help us with some of the issues
16:35:29 <PaulG> ...in some ways Web Speech gives more control
16:35:41 <PaulG> ...over rate and timing
16:36:31 <PaulG> matatk: Can you share the code or examples for that higher-level tool?
16:42:01 <PaulG> matatk: I was just thinking, whenever we show people we should use the TAG explainer format
16:42:36 <PaulG> ...they focus on the user problem being solved
16:43:18 <PaulG> ...and compare how the various solutions (ssml, web speech, etc) deliver on those solutions
16:44:01 <matatk> https://tag.w3.org/explainers/
16:44:20 <PaulG> zakim, next item
16:44:20 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, PaulG
16:44:24 <matatk> ack me
16:44:28 <PaulG> q?
16:44:32 <PaulG> zakim, next item
16:44:33 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Action Items -- taken up [from PaulG]
16:45:08 <PaulG> zakim, next item
16:45:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, PaulG
16:45:15 <PaulG> zakim, close item 3
16:45:15 <Zakim> agendum 3, Action Items, closed
16:45:16 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:45:16 <Zakim> 4. Github Issues and examples [from PaulG]
16:45:19 <PaulG> zakim, next item
16:45:19 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Github Issues and examples -- taken up [from PaulG]
16:45:25 <PaulG> zakim, close item 4
16:45:25 <Zakim> agendum 4, Github Issues and examples, closed
16:45:26 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:45:26 <Zakim> 5. Other Business [from PaulG]
16:45:27 <PaulG> zakim, next item
16:45:28 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Other Business -- taken up [from PaulG]
16:45:57 <PaulG> Alan: clarification: web speech is not a solution for these problems
16:47:33 <PaulG> https://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-gap-analysis-and-use-cases/#gap-analysis
16:48:17 <matatk> PaulG: We mentioned Web Speech in the gap analysis, but we didn't include it in the table (probably because it's very separate from the content)
16:48:23 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk
16:48:31 <matatk> PaulG: Maybe we just call that out, and make it more clear.
16:48:50 <matatk> PaulG: We can explain why AT users are left behind if things are not moved into the AX tree
16:49:17 <matatk> S_Wood: I may have some slides that explain this.
16:49:34 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-pronunciation-minutes.html matatk