14:14:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #adapt
14:14:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-adapt-irc
14:14:27 <Sharon> zakim, start meeting
14:14:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:14:28 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Sharon
14:14:55 <Sharon> meeting: APA WAI-Adapt Task Force Meeting 28 November 2023
14:15:08 <Sharon> rrsagent, make logs public
14:15:16 <Sharon> agenda?
14:15:22 <Sharon> chair: Sharon
14:15:28 <Sharon> present+
14:16:29 <Sharon> agenda+ WKU for Accessibility Statement: What does an MVP of this use of WKU look like?  Link: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/blob/add-explainers/explainers/accessibility-meta.md
14:16:49 <Sharon> agenda+ WKU for A11Y Reporting: What does an MVP of this use of WKU look like? Link: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/blob/add-explainers/explainers/accessibility-reporting.md
14:17:13 <Sharon> agenda+ WKU vs. Destination: Similarities and Differences
14:18:38 <Sharon> agenda+ Report of the Issue 240 Link: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240
14:18:39 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
14:19:11 <Sharon> agenda+ Continue the concept definition discussion
14:58:01 <Sharon> agenda?
14:58:07 <janina> janina has joined #adapt
14:59:06 <matatk> matatk has joined #adapt
15:01:18 <vikas> vikas has joined #adapt
15:01:59 <Abhinav> Abhinav has joined #adapt
15:02:05 <Abhinav> present+
15:03:10 <vikas> present+
15:03:17 <matatk> present+
15:04:12 <janina> present+
15:05:14 <janina> scribe+
15:05:39 <janina> zakim, next item
15:05:39 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- WKU for Accessibility Statement: What does an MVP of this use of WKU look like?  Link:
15:05:39 <Zakim> ... https://github.com/w3c/adapt/blob/add-explainers/explainers/accessibility-meta.md -- taken up [from Sharon]
15:05:42 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:05:51 <russell> russell has joined #adapt
15:05:56 <russell> present+
15:06:23 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:06:23 <Zakim> Present: Sharon, Abhinav, vikas, matatk, janina, russell
15:06:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see russell, Abhinav, vikas, matatk, janina, RRSAgent, Zakim, Sharon, Roy, gb, Mike5Matrix, gonzu_15, justinestrada, Github, imlostlmao, sdd
15:06:53 <janina> matatk: Appreciates github questions from Abhinav
15:07:05 <janina> matatk: Discusses best procedures on github
15:07:33 <janina> matatk: Suggests voicing comments to date
15:07:35 <matatk> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/tree/add-explainers
15:08:25 <Abhinav> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/commit/338df0df8b4f75dff8ab958447b1d01e36a0e99a
15:08:35 <Abhinav> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/commit/3bc6a7d159862a75dbcf60b3f874b27510f2d862#diff-0837c1432cec3bab13cbdd2c49f270f6e83bdb30e78cbb121ab25af681f09c88
15:09:16 <janina> matatk: reads Q: Do we expect a separate page for login and logout?
15:09:49 <Sharon> q?
15:10:33 <janina> matatk: We need to revgisit destinations thinkin; Which are key?
15:11:02 <janina> matatk: Suggests logout won't stay, but it's how we first received the list
15:11:26 <janina> Abhinav: Concerned not always a predictable URI
15:12:07 <janina> Abhinav: Also the concerned that login dialog is often buried in page content
15:12:17 <janina> Abhinav: Also a timeout concern
15:12:39 <janina> Abhinav: Also i18n
15:14:01 <janina> matatk: Notes WKU are intended to redirect to a page;
15:14:17 <janina> matatk: Also intended to be machine readable
15:14:57 <janina> matatk: So if the login URI has some custom value, that's a small minority of use cases so seems not the pattern to base our approach
15:15:43 <janina> matatk: We do need to know more precisely whether our expectation is correct and to quantify it
15:16:15 <janina> matatk: WKU are pages one can access regardless of where one's currently brosed to
15:16:55 <janina> matatk: We do however have multiple options for applying our destinations
15:17:04 <janina> matatk: e.g. rhel
15:17:04 <Abhinav> q+
15:17:49 <janina> matatk: espect some sitewide destinations will always appear, but some not because page specific
15:18:27 <Sharon> ack Abhinav
15:18:55 <janina> Abhinav: Asks about how we expect a particular portion of the page to be highlight
15:19:12 <janina> q+
15:19:34 <Sharon> q?
15:20:07 <janina> matatk: Notes there's nothing in the explainer about highlighting -- suppose we could look into whether idiomatic by browser
15:20:59 <janina> matatk: Also notes that fragments of pages will be a common use case and likely a key one
15:21:56 <janina> matatk: Notes further that 'help' may be to local task, not a global help
15:23:00 <Abhinav> q+
15:23:36 <janina> matatk: We can show tghe user the phrasing they prefer, e.g. login, sign on, etc
15:23:56 <janina> matatk: i18n is made possible because we're machine readable
15:24:12 <Sharon> q?
15:24:18 <Sharon> ack janina
15:24:46 <matatk> scribe+
15:25:06 <matatk> janina: I think we do want to highlight which part of the page contains the desired activity (e.g. log in).
15:25:14 <matatk> janina: Maybe we need to talk to WHATWG or COGA.
15:25:35 <matatk> janina: Don't think we have a reliable mechansim to assure ourselves that anything that is a link that says "help" is local or global?
15:25:53 <Sharon> ack Abhinav
15:26:07 <janina> Abhinav: Asks what's machine readable
15:27:21 <janina> matatk: We have common destinations supplied by COGA; suggesting standirdizing those, just like attrib values we get allow UX to present verbiage user wants, but perform action based on standard
15:27:45 <Sharon> q?
15:27:53 <janina> matatk: What we call it isn't important, it's the standard definition that does
15:28:10 <janina> Abhinav: Who's calling?
15:28:13 <janina> matatk: Not the user
15:28:48 <janina> matatk: Expect uA will provide list of known destinations available on a page
15:29:55 <janina> Abhinav: Is it a value URI for browser extension?
15:30:07 <janina> matatk: Initially, yes. Eventually we'd like to see direct browser support
15:30:44 <janina> matatk: Would it help for me to make a PR for each explainer?
15:31:05 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:31:13 <matatk> agenda?
15:31:18 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
15:31:26 <janina> zakim, take up item 4
15:31:26 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Report of the Issue 240 Link: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -- taken up [from Sharon]
15:31:26 <matatk> zakim, take up item 4
15:31:29 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Report of the Issue 240 Link: https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -- taken up [from Sharon]
15:31:52 <janina> russell: Have possibly important news
15:32:19 <janina> russell: The unicode proposal is now publically available; seems to have been accepted modulo minor edits
15:33:06 <janina> russell: While working on doc requested, i found myself changing viewpoint
15:34:35 <russell> https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2023/23138-n5228-blissymbols.pdf
15:34:37 <janina> russell: Notes that BCI IDs are included by unicode in its standard
15:34:42 <janina> russell: May be a game changer
15:35:22 <janina> russell: Regarding our terminology discussion; probably most dispositive is performed by Unicode
15:35:32 <russell> https://www.unicode.org/glossary/
15:36:08 <janina> russell: of course lots of contention and disagreement on terms; probably a historical artifact
15:36:25 <janina> q+
15:36:51 <Sharon> ack janina
15:37:35 <matatk> janina: Sounds like the only difference between our registry and Unicode is that ours may be more up to date because there could be a years-long gap between Unicode updates? I have no metrics to judge this by.
15:38:09 <matatk> russell: The IDs in Unicode are just for the characters. There will be a majority of IDs not in Unicode because compound symbols get new IDs, but no new Unicode symbol would be needed.
15:38:12 <matatk> q+
15:39:36 <janina> russell: Of all 1400 chars in Unicode
15:39:50 <janina> russell: Total in BCI including chars in 6200
15:40:35 <Sharon> ack matatk
15:41:14 <janina> matatk: Wonders whether the "just use unicode" proposers are aware of this discrepency?
15:41:29 <janina> matatk: Also impedes authoring significantly
15:42:14 <janina> matatk: How does one delineate end of concept? Easy for us because one value; but ultimately we may paint ourselves into a corner without a delimeter
15:42:30 <janina> russell: ultimate delimeter is a space -- just like an English word
15:43:09 <matatk> ack me
15:43:10 <janina> russell: Big problem is to represent a concept not defined as an ID until the bliss word is created for it
15:43:28 <janina> q+
15:44:10 <matatk> q+
15:44:14 <matatk> ack janina
15:44:15 <Sharon> ack janina
15:44:28 <matatk> janina: To russell's last point: I don't think we can solve that, but we can minimize it.
15:45:28 <russell> q+
15:45:31 <Sharon> ack matatk
15:46:02 <janina> janina: The problem will persist because new concepts will always be formed, as new words and new word meanings are eternally being created
15:47:02 <janina> matatk: We want mapped concepts between symbol sets; but we can only know about concepts we've been told of
15:47:15 <janina> q+
15:47:36 <Sharon> q?
15:47:40 <janina> matatk: Ad hoc isn't good enough because we can be more responsive than unicode
15:48:35 <janina> matatk: xkcd isn't necessarily a good approach; BCI is already very good
15:48:35 <janina> matatk: We need community consensus
15:49:08 <janina> matatk: We need a process symbol set creators can easily support
15:49:42 <janina> matatk: Seems clear to me we need something on top of unicode
15:49:58 <Sharon> ack russell
15:50:26 <janina> russell: Easy to create id for new concept and register it; creating the BCI authorized is harder
15:50:47 <matatk> s/xkcd isn't/xkcd ('one [more] standard to rule them all') isn't/
15:50:58 <janina> russell: Notes unicode is maintaining emoji compounds; perhaps they might support
15:51:06 <Sharon> ack janina
15:51:20 <matatk> janina: The key is responsiveness to our end users, which includes content authors, and symbol creators.
15:52:05 <matatk> ... Some people support living standards, that are all up to date. This process (Unicode) can take years to update.
15:52:29 <matatk> ... We do need a balance, where authorized values are updated relatively quickly.
15:52:42 <matatk> ... Worth investigating how often the Unicode compounds will be updated.
15:52:55 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-adapt-minutes.html matatk
15:55:33 <janina> zakim, end meeting
15:55:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Sharon, Abhinav, vikas, matatk, janina, russell
15:55:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-adapt-minutes.html Zakim
15:56:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, janina; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:56:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #adapt
15:56:22 <janina> rrsagent, bye
15:56:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items