12:58:11 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 12:58:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-i18n-irc 12:58:19 Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS 12:58:25 rrsagent, make log public 12:58:28 rrsagent, make minutes 12:58:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-i18n-minutes.html xfq 13:00:52 r12a has joined #i18n 13:01:58 scribe: xfq 13:02:03 present+ xfq, florian 13:02:37 present+ r12a 13:06:51 Topic: Agenda Review 13:06:56 present+ atsushi 13:07:31 agenda+ Generic font family 13:07:45 agenda+ Action Items 13:07:54 agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports 13:08:01 agenda+ Review on-going issues 13:08:18 florian: the CSSWG need to come up with a structure 13:08:36 ... a list of things that need to be described for each one we might want to add 13:08:37 atsushi has joined #i18n 13:09:13 ... the conclusion from the last meeting was that fantasai and I had to prepare a list 13:09:33 ... maybe the font name, maybe a sample of the fonts, maybe a description of what it's for 13:09:42 ... and maybe a description of why it matters 13:09:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/wiki/Generic-font-families 13:10:06 r12a: Chris has started to implement bits of it in the css-fonts spec 13:11:17 ... in Geek Week I made a list of generic font categories 13:11:21 ... see above 13:11:40 ... including Windows, macOS, Noto, and SIL fonts 13:11:55 ... you've got a list of what the categories would be 13:12:05 ... you've got a description of why you'd need it 13:12:12 ... and you've got links to the actual fonts 13:12:45 florian: is it complete for now, even though we might add some more in the future? 13:13:12 r12a: it's an initial list based on an exhaustive survey of the pre-installed fonts on macOS and Windows 13:13:37 ... somebody responded on the thread on the CSS thread that there may be more 13:14:05 florian: those are not necessarily available through pre-installed or commonly available fonts 13:14:10 r12a: this list is for discussion 13:14:23 ... what's also useful about it is it's not very long 13:14:54 florian: some are very specific to some writing systems 13:16:33 ... loopless is meant for Thai, but it @@ 13:16:45 xfq: it only lists Fangsong for SC 13:16:56 ... but there are also TC and Japanese Fangsong fonts 13:17:09 r12a: and heavy right down at the bottom 13:17:20 florian: is that different from bold? 13:17:28 r12a: these are much heavier than bold 13:17:54 ... it seemed to be a common thing that many scripts would have extremely heavy font faces 13:18:11 ... the same goes for slanted 13:18:22 ... we had Hebrew in there and I took it out 13:19:26 r12a: Syriac @@ 13:19:57 ... it is to persuade people that there needs to be an open interface so that people @@ 13:20:19 ... in the case of Syriac, we have three fonts 13:20:57 ... I think Noto needs two fonts for Lanna 13:21:18 r12a: there are 2 scenarios 13:21:36 ... one is where you're using the font to style the text for things like headings 13:21:40 ... it's very common 13:22:01 ... and the other scenario is like nastaliq 13:22:19 florian: I am convinced that those need supporting 13:22:34 ... I'm not convinced that those needs supporting through generic font families 13:22:45 ... because language is also a factor in selecting fonts 13:23:03 ... in terms of UI to pick up fonts, absolutely 13:23:59 ... that's also useful for systems which are less clear-cut than Windows or Mac about what's a system font and what's not 13:24:12 ... like Debian GNU/Linux 13:24:41 ... is there within that list anything which like nastaliq? 13:24:51 r12a: syriac and lanna 13:25:18 ... it's not "what you can do", it's actually "what you must not do" 13:25:23 ... this is the key factor 13:25:31 ... you must not fall back to this wrong font 13:26:42 florian: I will certainly take some time offline after this meeting to read through the list and organise my thoughts 13:26:57 https://typo.social/@ri/111368995519804048 13:27:01 ... but probably I'm not the only person who should be caring about this 13:27:41 https://www.w3.org/2023/11/17-clreq-minutes.html#t01 13:30:54 xfq: Fangsong fonts can also have Latin glyphs, which contain Latin letters of similar style to the Chinese Fangsong font 13:31:00 florian: @@ 13:31:15 s/which contain/which might contain 13:32:03 florian: at least I'll take an action to review it 13:32:09 ... but I suspect that's not enough 13:32:19 s/@@/the motivation for having those is script specific, but there is no restriction on the unicode range covered, so if it contains glyphs for latin (for example), that'll be used to 13:32:20 this is a mechanism to select fonts - it's not influenced by unicode character ranges - so latin characters in a fangsong font is not an issue 13:32:26 s/used to/used too 13:33:39 florian: I expect my availability to improve starting from next week 13:33:45 r12a: working on ruby! 13:33:52 florian: yes, I hope to 13:34:28 Topic: Ruby 13:34:46 florian: a reasonable next topic I think is the question of how it is supposed to be read 13:35:28 ... Muraka-san has written ruby-t2s-req 13:36:03 ... it currently only mentions Japanese 13:36:11 ... does it apply to Chinese and Zaima? 13:36:41 r12a: every other week somebody pops up and says we could use ruby for this sort of thing 13:38:11 florian: I'm thinking about the next steps 13:38:18 ... not to do them, but to discuss them a little bit 13:38:45 r12a: do you think it would be an HTML attribute? 13:38:57 ... I would have thought it would be a CSS property 13:39:13 florian: it's a semantic difference 13:39:28 ... sometimes it's phonetic, sometimes it's not 13:40:24 ... that's not for immediate solution 13:40:37 ... but it should be somewhere on our radar 13:41:04 ... I wouldn't want to miss it 13:41:13 https://github.com/w3c/ruby-t2s-req/pull/42 13:43:14 xfq: I have two comments 13:43:16 ... @@1 13:45:37 ... Zaima PR ^ 13:46:10 ... Warichu tts, copy/paste, string-searching etc. 13:53:46 rrsagent, make minutes 13:53:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/21-i18n-minutes.html xfq