18:04:15 RRSAgent has joined #aria 18:04:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/16-aria-irc 18:04:20 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:04:21 Meeting: ARIA WG 18:04:21 chair: JamesNurthen 18:04:24 present+ 18:04:24 pkra has joined #aria 18:04:28 present+ 18:04:29 giacomo-petri_ has joined #aria 18:04:37 present+ 18:04:37 agendabot, find agenda 18:04:37 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 18:04:38 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20231116T130000/ 18:04:38 clear agenda 18:04:38 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/3v93w364 18:04:38 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/39rzjmw8 18:04:40 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT 18:04:43 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 18:04:43 present+ 18:04:45 agenda+ -> aria-hidden=false https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1256#issuecomment-1799271506 18:04:47 present+ 18:04:48 agenda+ -> [Question] wai-aria/role/listbox-roles.html wpt test https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2012 18:04:51 agenda+ -> aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996 18:04:54 agenda+ -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467 18:04:57 agenda+ -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721 18:05:00 agenda+ -> Consider creation of a fieldsize/maxlength property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1119 18:05:03 agenda+ -> ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110 18:05:07 agenda+ -> Hierarchy of treeitems per aria level only? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2065 18:05:10 agenda+ -> describe grouping (and naming of the group) for exclusive accordions
https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/509 18:05:28 scribe: Rahim 18:05:49 zakim, next item 18:05:49 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/3v93w364 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:05:57 scotto has joined #aria 18:06:01 present+ 18:06:21 jamesn: 18:06:44 BGaraventa has joined #aria 18:06:59 jamesn: assigning aria #517 to James Craig 18:07:35 pkra: Looks like #2079 relates to new ACT rules? 18:07:38 BGaraventa has joined #aria 18:07:47 scotto: Can assign #2079 to me 18:08:01 ...I'll respond in the issue 18:08:36 jamesn: aria #514 seems editorial? Please take a look and if you agree, create a PR in html-aam 18:08:51 ...assigned to Adam Page 18:10:19 Do we need clarification that generics can be named in certain contexts in the ARIA spec? 18:10:43 q+ 18:10:51 jcraig: Yes, I think I created an issue for this; we absolutely need tests and clarification (having a name for an element as part of labelledby computation, although it doesn't get its own name) 18:11:16 jamesn: Isn't it true that authors must not name generics, must there should be a name calculation 18:11:44 ack me 18:11:55 BGaraventa: there seems to be confusion on what is a name and what is part of child traversal algorithm; not usually calling out everything that has an accessible name. Just calling out what has actual contents or a label; sometimes not always nameable elements 18:12:20 q+ 18:13:11 jcraig: Should make this more clear in the spec; what we've got is a rule that allows 1) verify what is valid in one context and not allowed in another context (for leaf node element); e.g., text will be referencable in its own text node 18:13:30 jamesn: If named a generic in certain contexts, is this an author error or not? 18:14:10 Matt_King: If the thing is referenced by aria-labelled, that thing doesn't have a name; always an author error to put name on generic. But referencing a generic element with label/labelledby doesn't give the thing a name 18:14:55 jamesn: Can someone put in aria #220 what the issue is (with code example)? 18:15:14 ack scotto 18:15:35 BGaraventa: I have a code example and can put it in the issue (accname #220, not aria repo) 18:16:27 scotto: Want to understand the use case; want to challenge the idea that it was ever a good idea to do this 18:17:22 StefanS has joined #aria 18:17:29 present+ 18:17:59 BGaraventa: Disagree that it's an authoring error to name a generic 18:18:39 (disagreement on whether this is an authoring error or not within the group) 18:19:22 jcraig: Unsure that this is fully supported across browsers 18:20:02 jamesn: Please put example in issue accname #220 18:20:07 zakim, next item 18:20:07 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/39rzjmw8 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:21:40 scotto: companion issue for aria issue #1880, James N. will assign reviewers 18:22:16 jamesn: core-aam #212 is editorial, Peter K. will take a look (actually, James N. will self-assign) 18:22:23 zakim, next item 18:22:23 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:23:29 jamesn: wpt issue #43013 has 2 reviewers, doesn't need more reviewers 18:24:13 ...wpt issue #42986, Valerie will re-review 18:24:39 jamesn: for #42769 has multiple reviewers; James agrees it's a good change 18:25:32 jcraig: will re-review wpt #42760 18:25:37 zakim, next item 18:25:37 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:26:11 jamesn: No meeting next week (week of Nov 20 due to Thanksgiving); no deep dive either. Anything for after 2 weeks? 18:26:26 agenda? 18:26:50 https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/506 18:27:07 was in the agenda ^ 18:27:18 ...would you like to talk about html-aam #506 at a later time? Or anything else to be proposed? 18:27:28 zakim, next item 18:27:28 agendum 5 -- -> aria-hidden=false https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1256#issuecomment-1799271506 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:28:04 in another conversation with @aleventhal about this, it resulted in the rehashing of some of the points raised in this thread, particularly the reminder about JS framework/component libraries having used aria-hidden=false on components that could very well be put inside of an aria-hidden=true subtree. 18:28:04 18:28:04 With that in mind, and the fact that the ARIA spec has essentially warned people away from using aria-hidden=false for years, maybe the best thing to do is nothing for aria-hidden=false. 18:28:04 18:28:04 Aaron created this chromium bug to do just that: 18:28:05 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1500299 18:28:22 q+ 18:28:50 scotto: I can speak to this; for the comment in aria #1256. Spoke with Aaron L. about the aria-hidden=false problem. We've both aligned on the idea that "false" should do nothing; the only place it does do something is WebKit but unsure about the use case 18:29:25 ...can navigate to element with aria-hidden=false; so long as no nested elements, will be announced by VO 18:30:20 jcraig: This issue is targeted at never using aria-hidden=none (?); can't "un" inert something. If a view is rendered and aria-hidden on the body, aria-hidden=false could unhide it 18:30:52 ...I don't think we should dismiss this idea yet; but don't think we should change anything until agreement on what needs changing 18:31:49 scotto: Not sure what to do then; all the situations where aria-hidden=false is used on elements that would become "unhidden" in situations where we don't want them to. Then, at a impasse if we do, if we don't...so much usage of aria-hidden=false for where it shouldn't be used (e.g., AngularJS) 18:32:16 sarah has joined #aria 18:32:32 ...in AngularJS, aria-hidden=false is used in a widespread way (for things that should NOT be set to aria-hidden=false). Can understand the use case for what it should/could have been. People are relying on the fact that it doesn't do anything 18:33:18 jcraig: Unfortunate that it does that; flip side is that a couple frameworks misuse it 18:33:26 I'm going to stay connected and try to multi-task ... at least multi-listen 18:34:27 scotto: I would propose, and someone already said this; I think there is a use case. I wonder if it's at a point where we want the use case to be viable; we need another value, e.g., aria-hidden="unhidden". Then, false can mean nothing and we can move away from that. I dunno, I don't see a path forward with false but I acknowledge that we do want this behavior via new value or different attribute 18:34:43 jamesn: Definitely too much "baggage" for false (aria-hidden value) 18:35:02 jcraig: Once we have isIgnored() as WPT property, then can work out the issues with where it is ignored 18:35:09 jamesn: How do we move forward on this? 18:36:05 scotto: I've talked to Aaron L. on this; I would be happy to write the spec update to indicate that aria-hidden=false is the same as if the attribute isn't there; if we want to do something with a new value, then that would be a different PR. Missed what James C. just said (apologies)...that's what I can do here, then pick up work on what we want aria-hidden=false can do 18:36:17 jamesn: Is it documented anywhere what WebKit does with aria-hidden=false? 18:36:56 scotto: I have a codepen example somewhere; didn't mean to misspeak, just observed that's what WebKit does 18:37:08 jcraig: *unintelligible due to background noise* 18:37:35 aria-hidden="really-false" 18:37:36 scotto: I will post next week what the current behavior is (and the PR); can scrutinize it together but we have something we can work on together, people can introduce alternative ideas 18:37:46 jamesn: As long as we have a path forward, great 18:37:52 zakim, next item 18:37:52 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Rahim 18:37:57 q? 18:38:03 ack jcraig 18:39:31 jcraig: Wanted to mention that WebKit implemented it according to spec (a decade or so again); since then, issues have been raised by Gecko (I believe). Had an interop problem due to stack and expectations changing that haven't been implemented by other engines. But in addition, are real bugs...don't want to change anything until agreement on what's changed. Getting closer to interop is desirable; if too much baggage with aria-hidden=false, can 18:39:31 look into further but will agree with PR likely 18:39:34 zakim, next item 18:39:34 agendum 6 -- -> [Question] wai-aria/role/listbox-roles.html wpt test https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2012 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:40:19 spectranaut_: have we talked about this already? James N. unsure 18:40:32 jcraig: Don't recall talking about this in the group 18:40:53 jamesn: Should consider adding a requirement on user agents? As a should or must? 18:41:22 jamesn: Have a WPT test; there's not a concrete UA must that backs this up 18:41:43 this is when we discussed last: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/07-aria-minutes#t05 18:41:53 ...if we have consensus on UA where they agree what the behavior should be 18:42:18 ...Valerie, should we have a prototype for what the procedure should be? 18:42:27 spectranaut_: If there are kinks in the procedure, can work that out 18:42:52 jamesn: Could have a bunch of tests (e.g. with orphaned roles) *which already exists as James C. points out* 18:43:06 ...already assigned to Scott; but someone else could take it on 18:43:34 scotto: The WPT test was assigned to me (aria #2012) but happy for someone else to look at it 18:43:58 jcraig: please add me a co-assignee (along with Rahim) 18:44:01 zakim, next item 18:44:01 agendum 7 -- -> aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:44:20 jamesn: I know Matt K. had some stuff on this but he had to leave; he's already added comments 18:44:38 scotto: I've had a long conversation with muan as well; will get to this as soon as a I can 18:44:43 jcraig: Keep on agenda or remove? 18:44:57 jamesn: Leave it on, we have 2 weeks; let's see if there's progress before being re-added to agenda 18:45:00 zakim, next item 18:45:00 agendum 7 was just opened, Rahim 18:45:11 zakim, close this item 18:45:11 agendum 7 closed 18:45:12 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:45:12 8. -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467 [from agendabot] 18:45:18 zakim, next item 18:45:18 agendum 8 -- -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:46:21 jcraig: Is Emilia (?) actively working on SVG AAM mapping? Quite a bit of date and/or ambiguous 18:46:55 jamesn: No actions on svg-aam other than spec maintenance on editorial stuff 18:47:23 ...should we talk about this in the next editors/planning meeting to determine what we're going to do? 18:47:51 pkra: Same issue with dpub-aam; we should talk about it 18:48:29 jamesn: for html-aam #467, should we do a deep dive or talk about it in one of these meetings? 18:48:33 jcraig: Not really sure 18:49:03 ...possible that these will be easier to work out kinks at a later date; already have rendering differences but for now, not a pressing issue 18:49:09 zakim, next item 18:49:09 agendum 9 -- -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:49:43 scotto: Need to drop now 18:49:55 ...(and leave meeting) 18:50:27 zakim, close this item 18:50:27 agendum 9 closed 18:50:28 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:50:28 10. -> Consider creation of a fieldsize/maxlength property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1119 [from agendabot] 18:50:30 jamesn: Should we skip this? OK, let's skip it, or perhaps take up in 2 weeks time? 18:50:44 zakim, next item 18:50:45 agendum 10 -- -> Consider creation of a fieldsize/maxlength property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1119 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:50:57 agenda? 18:51:36 jcraig: Yes, we should (consider creation of...) but not until it's testable 18:51:52 jamesn: Talked about in aria spec 1.4, hopefully will be testable by next year 18:52:23 jcraig: Lots of challenges with interop stuff 18:53:49 sarah: maxlength on an input prevents input/typing, not an option on contenteditable 18:54:10 jamesn: Maxlength on exists but screen readers don't do anything with it 18:54:50 sarah: html-aam says it's not mapped in any API 18:54:59 jamesn: Is there anything in the a11y APIs it could map to? 18:55:15 q+ 18:56:15 sarah: Just did a bunch of testing on this 18:56:59 ...but did not test on iOS; implemented a live region but it isn't a good solution for this. Almost never announces due to character limit so having an api for this would be nice 18:57:20 jamesn: Once we get notifications (ARIA notifications), could work? 18:57:47 ...want to know when you have some characters left, and when you are reaching the end (vs. when you get to the end) 18:57:57 jcraig: Seems like on the AT side of things, don't need to spec it 18:59:01 jamesn: Sarah, you've done experimentation and didn't land on a good solution (live region approach not good) 18:59:18 sarah: Can look at what UIA has available; if others (James C.) can look at other APIs 18:59:39 jamesn: aria #1119, should I assign to you (Sarah)? 18:59:40 sarah: Sure 19:02:08 tzviya has joined #aria 19:03:50 keithamus has joined #aria 19:06:05 bkardell_ has joined #aria 19:20:19 rrsagent, make minutes 19:20:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/16-aria-minutes.html jcraig 19:21:35 present+ 21:04:57 Matt_King has joined #aria