13:52:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:52:55 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-wcag2ict-irc
13:52:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:52:56 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
13:53:01 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
13:53:01 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:53:09 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:53:15 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:53:21 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:53:21 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
13:53:27 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
13:53:33 <maryjom> Agenda+ Project status and standup
13:53:43 <maryjom> Agenda+ Survey results: Updated proposal for 4.1.1 Parsing
13:53:49 <maryjom> Agenda+ FPWD public comments
13:53:56 <maryjom> Agenda+ Survey results: Proposal for 2.5.7 Dragging Movements
13:54:06 <maryjom> agenda ?
13:54:42 <LauraMiller> LauraMiller has joined #WCAG2ICT
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13:55:26 <PhilDay> present+
13:56:16 <LauraMiller> present+
13:56:37 <LauraMiller> @PhilDay - What is the link for the IRC scribe instructions? I'll scribe.
13:58:20 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
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13:58:27 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Scribe-list-&-instructions
13:58:56 <LauraMiller> scribe+ LauraMiller
13:59:22 <loicmn> present+
14:00:30 <GreggVan> present+
14:00:57 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
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14:01:26 <shadi> present+
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14:02:12 <LauraMiller> zakim take up item 1
14:02:15 <maryjom> present+
14:02:21 <Chuck> present+
14:02:23 <Devanshu> present+
14:02:24 <ShawnT> present+
14:02:27 <FernandaBonnin> FernandaBonnin has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:02:32 <LauraMiller> zakim, take up item 1
14:02:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:02:35 <olivia> olivia has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:38 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:02:40 <olivia> present+
14:02:50 <bruce_bailey> zakim, agenda?
14:02:50 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
14:02:51 <Zakim> 1. Announcements [from maryjom]
14:02:51 <Zakim> 2. Project status and standup [from maryjom]
14:02:51 <Zakim> 3. Survey results: Updated proposal for 4.1.1 Parsing [from maryjom]
14:02:52 <Zakim> 4. FPWD public comments [from maryjom]
14:02:52 <Zakim> 5. Survey results: Proposal for 2.5.7 Dragging Movements [from maryjom]
14:02:59 <Sam> present+
14:03:33 <FernandaBonnin> present+
14:04:07 <LauraMiller> chuck: reapply for the working group. It's a natural part of the process.
14:04:53 <mitch11> mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:16 <LauraMiller> chuck: invited experts will be kicked out until they are reaccepted.
14:05:17 <Bryan_Trogdon> Bryan_Trogdon has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:05:25 <Bryan_Trogdon> present+
14:05:50 <PhilDay> q+
14:06:05 <bruce_bailey> Has new charter now approved?
14:06:39 <PhilDay> q?
14:06:57 <LauraMiller> Chuck: The new charter has been approved. It needs to be activated. Tilt needs to be apprised.
14:07:21 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:07:53 <LauraMiller> PhilDay: I thought the process was that when all is approved an email will be generated telling us when to start.
14:08:03 <LauraMiller> Chuck: correct
14:08:20 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Get your surveys done
14:08:36 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Time change on Sunday. 10 am Eastern time meeting time
14:08:45 <LauraMiller> zakim, take up item 2
14:08:45 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Project status and standup -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:09:22 <maryjom> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/13/views/2
14:09:47 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:09:54 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Project standup. We have a lot in progress and I did check in with the folks signed up for 2.2 success criteria.
14:10:00 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:10:18 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Sam is yours ready for review?
14:10:20 <LauraMiller> Sam: Yes.
14:12:09 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: All of the in progress success criteria will appear in the next few weeks. There are a few still assigned.
14:12:48 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: How is the response going for the one Mitch11 is working on.
14:13:30 <Chuck> Laura:  It was my intent, but in job transition.  I can try to get to it this week, or I'll reach out to you (MJM)
14:13:31 <LauraMiller> Mitch11: no progress
14:13:51 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Anyone that needs help, let's team up to get them done in the next 2 weeks.
14:14:27 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: I updated the project plan
14:14:39 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Schedule-and-milestones
14:16:12 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Need to resolve public comments and push for a new draft for public review by 12th of March.
14:16:51 <Sam> q+
14:16:57 <LauraMiller> ack sam
14:17:00 <maryjom> ack Sam
14:17:48 <LauraMiller> Sam: No notice about whether or not the topic has been accepted for CSUN.
14:18:17 <LauraMiller> zakim, take up item 3
14:18:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Survey results: Updated proposal for 4.1.1 Parsing -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:18:48 <maryjom> •	https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-parsing-round2/results
14:18:53 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Parsing 4.1.1
14:19:23 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: Updated proposal based on last week's discussion. Will be talking to Kevin about how to handle parsing for 2.2.
14:19:53 <maryjom> Question 1: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-parsing-round2/results#xq2
14:22:03 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: DOM was repaired.
14:24:12 <Chuck> q+
14:24:27 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:24:28 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:26:35 <LauraMiller> Gregg: for 2.0 and 2.1 it is not ambiguous. It does not apply to option 2.2 (has been removed).
14:26:49 <Chuck> q+ to say we don't yet know how to address WCAG 2.0 and 2.1, and this should focus strictly on WCAG 2.2
14:27:11 <maryjom> q?
14:27:53 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:27:53 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to say we don't yet know how to address WCAG 2.0 and 2.1, and this should focus strictly on WCAG 2.2
14:27:57 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: This is about how to handle 2.2. We need to discuss separately how to handle 2.0/2.1
14:28:35 <LauraMiller> Chuck: This charter is focused on 2.2. At the moment we do not have an appropriate understanding how to address 2.0 and 2.1. But that is not in our charter
14:28:40 <Chuck> +1
14:28:52 <Sam> +1
14:28:58 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Incorporate changes to 4.1.1 Parsing guidance as proposed, using Option 2 in the survey, as-is.
14:29:09 <LauraMiller> +1
14:29:09 <loicmn> +1
14:29:09 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:29:09 <Sam> +1
14:29:10 <PhilDay> +1
14:29:22 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:29:45 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:29:46 <mitch11> +1
14:29:47 <olivia> +1
14:29:48 <Devanshu> +1
14:29:49 <GreggVan> +1
14:29:54 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate changes to 4.1.1 Parsing guidance as proposed, using Option 2 in the survey, as-is.
14:29:56 <GreggVan> present+
14:30:31 <maryjom> Regarding non-web documents, specifically PDF: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/241#issuecomment-1785921498
14:31:21 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: AT does not parse PDF. Maybe this SC should not have been applied to non web documents.
14:32:25 <maryjom>  Question 2: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-review-parsing/results#xq3
14:32:35 <maryjom> oDRAFT RESOLUTION: Remove bullet for 4.1.1 Parsing from the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section
14:32:43 <loicmn> +1
14:32:49 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:32:49 <PhilDay> +1
14:32:50 <olivia> +1
14:32:50 <Sam> +1
14:32:51 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:32:54 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:32:57 <mitch11> +1
14:32:57 <Devanshu> +1
14:33:00 <LauraMiller> +1
14:33:19 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Remove bullet for 4.1.1 Parsing from the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section
14:34:17 <maryjom> agenda ?
14:35:00 <Chuck> zakim, remove item 1
14:35:00 <Zakim> agendum 1, Announcements, dropped
14:35:19 <LauraMiller> zakim, take up item 4
14:35:19 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- FPWD public comments -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:36:04 <maryjom> TOPIC: Discussion on 1.4.4 Resize Text
14:36:14 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/discussions/220
14:37:48 <mitch11> q+
14:37:58 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:38:10 <GreggVan> q+
14:38:32 <LauraMiller> Mitch11: Point 1 is someone's comments - they were not Mitch's points.
14:38:40 <LauraMiller> ack GreggVan
14:38:42 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:39:25 <LauraMiller> Gregg: with regard to WCAG this is correct. WCAG only applies to web. If you want to use WCAG for something else, WCAG2ICT is the guidance.
14:39:28 <maryjom> Point 1: All native apps should be exempted from WCAG
14:39:37 <maryjom> Mitch's proposed response: Proposed response: This was a fair question in 2020 (seven years after the first version of WCAG2ICT). However, the AG Working Group has since made it clear that we won't make such blanket exemptions merely because of the "W" in WCAG. On the contrary, the Working Group's 2022 approval of the WCAG2ICT Task Force Work Statement reaffirms our intention to "describe how WCAG 2.x and its principles, guidelines, and succe[CUT]
14:40:02 <maryjom> ...to non-Web Information and Communications Technologies (ICT)."
14:40:27 <mitch11> q+
14:41:10 <LauraMiller> Maryjom: alternate response
14:41:13 <maryjom> My alternate proposed response: The application of WCAG to non-web ICT has been done, in practice, since 2017 when the EN 301 549 and Revised 508 Standards adopted it. Those standards used WCAG2ICT to aid in the interpretation of WCAG to non-web documents and software. While there may be instances where the fit isn’t perfect, WCAG2ICT tries to provide guidance, in the form of notes, to further describe how one might apply each success crite[CUT]
14:41:14 <mitch11> q-
14:41:32 <GreggVan> +1
14:41:35 <loicmn> q+ to point to the date of EN!
14:42:02 <Chuck> ack loi
14:42:02 <Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to point to the date of EN!
14:42:07 <bruce_bailey> +1 and this point is so good i hope it makes it into WCAG2ICT
14:42:11 <LauraMiller> Loicmn: Date was incorrect. Needs to be updated.
14:42:28 <maryjom> POLL: Which response do you prefer: 1) Mitch's initial response 2) Mary Jo's alternate with date(s) fixed 3) something else.
14:42:38 <mitch11> 2
14:42:39 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
14:42:39 <loicmn> 2
14:42:44 <mitch11> present+
14:42:52 <LauraMiller> 2
14:42:55 <GreggVan> q+
14:42:56 <FernandaBonnin> 2
14:42:58 <PhilDay> 2
14:42:58 <olivia> 2
14:43:39 <bruce_bailey> +1 to two sentences as Gregg states
14:44:08 <maryjom> q?
14:44:13 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:44:19 <maryjom> Add preamble, it is true that WCAG was originally written for Web content. However, ...the application...
14:45:02 <Chuck> It is true that WCAG applies only to web content.  However, ...
14:45:16 <loicmn> +1
14:45:21 <PhilDay> +1
14:45:22 <Sam> +1
14:45:22 <LauraMiller> +1
14:45:24 <mitch11> +1
14:45:26 <olivia> +1
14:45:28 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:45:32 <Devanshu> +1
14:45:37 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:45:47 <GreggVan> +1
14:45:48 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:45:58 <GreggVan> +1 adding. Directly
14:46:04 <maryjom> It is true that WCAG applies directly only to web content.  However, ...
14:46:11 <GreggVan> +1
14:46:47 <GreggVan> +8 to Chuck's thank you to Mitch
14:47:08 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Respond to point 1 with option 2, as edited above with dates fixed.
14:47:09 <bruce_bailey> +1 thanks to Mitch for slogging through threads
14:47:25 <GreggVan> +1
14:47:29 <Sam> +1
14:47:31 <mitch11> +1 (to the resolution) smile
14:47:33 <olivia> +1
14:47:35 <LauraMiller> +1
14:47:37 <Devanshu> +1
14:47:42 <loicmn> +1
14:47:50 <PhilDay> +1
14:47:50 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Respond to point 1 with option 2, as edited above with dates fixed.
14:48:04 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:48:09 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:48:24 <maryjom> Point 2: Native apps on small screen devices should be exempted from 1.4.4 because the requirement is unclear or not feasible.
14:49:28 <maryjom> Proposed response: Comments in #4 raise valid, important concerns about clarity and feasibility of applying 1.4.4 to non-web ICT, especially as ICT has evolved in the past 10 years. Now that the WCAG2ICT Task Force is active again, we're optimistic that we can respond to the community's points in an improved Working Group Note and achieve consensus on the update.
14:49:52 <maryjom> Mary Jo's proposed edits: Comments in Issue #4 raise valid, important concerns about the clarity and feasibility of applying 1.4.4 to non-web ICT, especially as ICT has evolved in the past 10 years. The WCAG2ICT Task Force is working to respond to the community's points in an improved Working Group Note. We are also active in related WCAG issues on this criterion, as some of the clarifications are also needed in the Web context.
14:52:08 <PhilDay> q
14:52:14 <PhilDay> q+
14:52:36 <mitch11> q+
14:52:42 <Chuck> q+
14:53:44 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:53:58 <Chuck> +1
14:54:10 <LauraMiller> PhilDay: Agree it's a useful thing to do but we have agreed not to set a size in previous discussions.
14:54:30 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:55:04 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:55:09 <maryjom> q?
14:55:43 <LauraMiller> Chuck: Gregg had mentioned that pinch zoom doesn't work well. 1.4.10 reflow that's correct. 1.4.4 it does work.
14:57:02 <Sam> q+
14:57:07 <GreggVan> +1.   Chuck is correct.  I conflated.
14:57:36 <maryjom> ack Sam
14:57:40 <mitch11> q+
14:59:05 <LauraMiller> Sam: It is still required to support low vision users in other ways.
14:59:09 <maryjom> ack mitch
15:00:16 <LauraMiller> Mitch11: the things we don't agree on can be punted to other things
15:01:33 <LauraMiller> I also need to drop, , ,
15:02:19 <LauraMiller> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:02:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html LauraMiller
15:03:15 <LauraMiller> zakim, bye
15:03:15 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been PhilDay, LauraMiller, loicmn, GreggVan, shadi, maryjom, Chuck, Devanshu, ShawnT, bruce_bailey, olivia, Sam, FernandaBonnin,
15:03:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:03:18 <Zakim> ... Bryan_Trogdon, Mike_Pluke, Daniel, mitch
15:40:13 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
15:40:26 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:40:26 <RRSAgent> I see no action items