15:55:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:55:40 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-irc
15:55:43 <ktk> meeting: RDF-star Working Group Weekly Meeting
15:56:06 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:56:28 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
15:57:12 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/d45f4f0d-141c-440d-8fec-ef5842345ca2/20231102T120000/
15:57:12 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:57:12 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two weeks: [1]
15:57:12 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:57:12 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
15:57:12 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
15:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
15:57:18 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
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15:57:48 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:57:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
15:57:53 <ktk> RRSAgent, make public
15:57:53 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public', ktk.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:57:54 <gkellogg> present+
15:58:00 <gkellogg> scribe+
15:58:01 <pfps> present+
15:58:01 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
15:58:40 <ktk> present+
15:58:51 <ktk> Regret+ pchampin
15:59:18 <gkellogg> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:59:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html gkellogg
15:59:39 <ktk> Regret+ niklasl
16:00:01 <olaf> present+
16:00:09 <ktk> Regret+ fsasaki
16:00:27 <AndyS> present+
16:00:38 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:00:46 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:00:55 <ktk> Chair: ora
16:01:02 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:01:02 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two weeks: -- taken up [from 1]
16:01:04 <gtw> present+
16:01:14 <ora> present+
16:02:00 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:03:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:03:14 <TallTed> present+
16:03:15 <AZ> present+
16:03:17 <gkellogg> Erich_Bremer: I work in bioinformatics with pipelines.
16:03:18 <gkellogg> ... I
16:03:34 <gkellogg> s/I/I've been working with RDF and RDF-star, which will work nice/
16:03:52 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star — 2023-11-02 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/d45f4f0d-141c-440d-8fec-ef5842345ca2/20231102T120000/
16:03:59 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
16:04:05 <Dominik_T> present+
16:04:45 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:04:45 <tl> present+
16:04:45 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
16:04:45 <Souri> present+
16:04:52 <draggett> present+
16:05:58 <Erich_Bremer> Erich_Bremer has joined #rdf-star
16:06:01 <gkellogg> Erich_Bremer: I was briefly in another group, but this is pretty much my first WG.
16:06:10 <TallTed> present+ Erich_Bremer
16:06:57 <gkellogg> ora: We look forward to hearing your real-world use cases.
16:07:34 <pfps> q+
16:07:47 <ora> ack pfps
16:08:05 <gkellogg> pfps: I'm looking at the meeting announcement, and it's missing the links.
16:08:27 <gkellogg> ktk: I forgot to change that we don't put scribes as the first item anymore and things changed.
16:08:44 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2023/10/19-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:08:51 <pfps> the email announcement is fine.  it's the description on w3.org that is missing the links
16:08:52 <gkellogg> subtopic: Approval of minutes
16:09:07 <ktk> pfps: I updated it now
16:09:20 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:09:23 <gkellogg> <gkellogg> +1
16:09:26 <AndyS> <AndyS> +1
16:09:28 <Dominik_T> +1
16:09:35 <tl> +1
16:09:54 <AZ> +1
16:09:54 <gkellogg> s/of minutes/of minutes from 2023-10-19/
16:10:02 <ora> +1
16:10:05 <olaf> +1
16:10:10 <ktk> RESOLUTION: approve minutes of October 19
16:10:23 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2023/10/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:10:32 <gkellogg> subtopic: Approval of minutes from 2023-10-26
16:12:08 <pfps> last week's minutes also look fine to me because the presentations have slide backup on the email list
16:12:43 <ktk> PROPOSAL: approve minutes of October 26
16:12:45 <gkellogg> tl: There was a correction on the abstract syntax (which was captured)
16:13:19 <gkellogg> TallTed: You can use SED substitution to correct the log.
16:13:35 <ktk> +1
16:13:37 <pfps> +1
16:13:38 <gtw> +1
16:13:39 <AndyS> <AndyS> +1
16:13:39 <ora> +1
16:13:40 <AZ> q+
16:13:40 <gkellogg> <gkellogg> +1
16:13:40 <olaf> +1
16:13:41 <tl> +1
16:13:43 <Dominik_T> +1
16:13:47 <ora> ack AZ
16:13:52 <Souri> +1
16:14:02 <gkellogg> AZ: What do we do with [to be completed ...]
16:14:21 <gkellogg> ... I think we missed something niklasl said.
16:15:25 <gkellogg> gkellogg: it was about the need to use the Abstract Syntax and not higher-level syntactic sugar
16:15:47 <gkellogg> ktk: niklasl isn't hear now.
16:16:08 <gkellogg> TallTed: Using ??? rather than "to be completed" makes it easier to just accept.
16:16:41 <AZ> +1
16:16:51 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approval of minutes from 2023-10-26, with corrections by pchampin (noted down by ktk)
16:16:59 <gkellogg> zakim, next agendum
16:16:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:17:09 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:17:21 <gkellogg> ora: We need to come up with a topic for next week.
16:17:44 <gkellogg> ... We had a lot of good discussion with many proposals, but we need to decide what we're going to pick up.
16:18:05 <gkellogg> ... We need to make a decision on what to do, but some more discussion is still needed.
16:18:10 <ora> q?
16:18:12 <tl> q+
16:18:28 <gkellogg> AndyS: We also said to look at the use cases to see how they fit the proposals.
16:18:33 <pfps> q+
16:18:49 <gkellogg> ... They're quite big, with a lot of detail. We need to get down to a few examples that capture the range of needs.
16:18:58 <ora> ack tl
16:18:58 <gkellogg> ... This could replace the "seminal example".
16:19:10 <pfps> q-
16:19:26 <gkellogg> tl: I agree; I started trying to do that, but I'm at ISWC next week.
16:19:54 <gkellogg> ... I've been looking at the Abstract Syntax, and think that my proposal can work without changes. It looks just like named graphs, but requires some changes to how we model.
16:20:10 <gkellogg> ... That will take some time to work out.
16:20:34 <gkellogg> ora: anyone else at ISWC? (olaf and AZ)
16:20:49 <gkellogg> tl: niklasl is also not here next week.
16:21:08 <gkellogg> ora: We're loosing some significant participation.
16:21:46 <gkellogg> ... Should we have the meeting or postpone? That would make the next long meeting in three weeks.
16:22:17 <gkellogg> Souri: One of the upcoming thursdays is Thanksgiving, which is a holiday in the US.
16:22:36 <gkellogg> ... Nov 30.
16:22:51 <gkellogg> AndyS: How about we adjust the schedule?
16:23:06 <gkellogg> Souri: We could convert a 1-hour meeting to a shorter discussion.
16:23:22 <gkellogg> ora: Why don't we have mainly discussion for the next couple of meetings.
16:23:36 <gkellogg> ... Cancel next week, and have a 1-hour discussion in two weeks.
16:23:59 <gkellogg> s/Nov 30/Nov 23/
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16:24:44 <gkellogg> ktk: The next long meeting would be Dec 7th.
16:24:53 <enrico> present+
16:25:01 <gkellogg> ora: that will allow us to make some progress.
16:25:04 <gkellogg> q+
16:25:21 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:25:36 <TallTed> s/upcoming thursdays/upcoming Thursdays (Nov 23)/
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16:26:51 <gkellogg> gkellogg: I'm concerned about how much time we're loosing
16:27:07 <gkellogg> ora: If someone would like to schedule something longer, I'm happy to attend and help.
16:27:38 <gkellogg> ... Next week is shot due to ISWC. Could we have a longer meeting on Nov 16th?
16:27:50 <gkellogg> ... Maybe we could shift the time?
16:28:04 <gkellogg> Souri: If we could go an hour later, that would help.
16:28:20 <gkellogg> ... If we could go 12-2 instead of 11-1 that would help.
16:28:28 <gkellogg> ... Also, US goes off DST this weekend.
16:28:35 <gkellogg> ora: I'm happy to do that.
16:29:02 <gkellogg> ktk: The main problem for me on the 16th is I'm in Jakarta.
16:29:15 <gkellogg> ... I would be unlikely to make a two hour meeting.
16:29:43 <gkellogg> ktk: We'll do a two-hour meeting on the 16th starting an hour later.
16:29:51 <enrico> q+
16:30:04 <AndyS> q+
16:30:39 <gkellogg> ktk: the next long one would be Dec 7, then Dec 21 then Jan 4th.
16:30:52 <gkellogg> q?
16:31:06 <ora> ack enrico
16:31:40 <gkellogg> enrico: I can't join a later meeting. What about the semantics groups meetings? I think we should delay until we have more consensus for our direction.
16:31:53 <gkellogg> ora: the TF is free to decide it's own schedule.
16:31:59 <ora> ack AndyS
16:32:31 <gkellogg> AndyS: For the meeting on the 16th, what inputs should we bring. We need a way to have discussions that converge.
16:32:52 <gkellogg> ... There's a lot of material, but maybe we can reduce to a set of facts to foster convergence.
16:33:15 <gkellogg> ora: We have material, so I expect at a minimum people to decide on a proposal they support.
16:33:16 <tl> q+
16:33:45 <gkellogg> ... I wouldn't object if someone wanted to synthesize something from existing proposals.
16:34:05 <ora> ack tl
16:34:21 <gkellogg> tl: I think we should focus on a use case and use that to measure the different proposals.
16:34:47 <gkellogg> ... But, we need to focus on what that is.
16:35:03 <gkellogg> ... AndyS proposed to have a simple use case example to focus on.
16:35:26 <gkellogg> AndyS: I didn't say a single use case, we could have a couple. For example the Superman example.
16:35:48 <gkellogg> ... The point is that examples should be a couple of lines long that have the essence of the problem.
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16:36:00 <gkellogg> q?
16:36:09 <pfps> q+
16:36:19 <ora> ack pfps
16:36:30 <gkellogg> AndyS: pfps, what's your feeling of what use case makes more engagement.
16:36:41 <gkellogg> ... There's still a lot to go through, and it's pretty long.
16:36:54 <gkellogg> pfps: A use case document is often longer than what's on the website.
16:37:17 <gkellogg> ... At one time I created a summary page that lays them out, and it's still up to date.
16:37:29 <gkellogg> ... They don't have examples, but they are distilled.
16:38:09 <pfps> The Summary is at https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/wiki/Summary
16:38:32 <gkellogg> ... That only has completed use cases, there are a couple of more that are in process.
16:38:38 <gkellogg> ... I can update that.
16:38:42 <ktk> q+
16:38:57 <gkellogg> ... I can add some RDF to the examples, as well.
16:39:18 <ora> ack ktk
16:39:33 <TallTed> `action: pfps to ...`
16:39:39 <pfps> action: pfps to update Summary wiki page with new use cases and RDF snippets
16:39:46 <gb> I created -> issue #8 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/issues/8
16:39:46 <gb> but I could not add the "action" label.
16:39:46 <gb> That probably means I don't have push permission on w3c/rdf-common.
16:39:46 <gkellogg> ktk: For Erich_Bremer, I think it would be good for you to go through the use cases to see if there's something you think is not covered.
16:39:47 <TallTed> s/`action: pfps to ...`//
16:40:16 <ora> q?
16:40:18 <gkellogg> close #8
16:40:20 <gb> Closed -> issue #8 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/issues/8
16:40:45 <tl> Is Enrico's question about sem TF meeting still up?
16:40:52 <gkellogg> q?
16:42:10 <gkellogg> ora: Between looking at use cases and proposing examples, is there something else?
16:42:21 <gkellogg> AndyS: I think there's more to do, but not realistic right now.
16:42:44 <gkellogg> zakim, next item
16:42:44 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -- taken up [from 2]
16:42:57 <ktk> Open Actions: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:43:27 <gkellogg> ora: No actions to discuss without pchampin.
16:43:36 <gkellogg> zakim, next item
16:43:36 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, gkellogg
16:43:42 <gkellogg> zakim, close item 3
16:43:42 <Zakim> agendum 3, Review of open actions, available at, closed
16:43:43 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:43:43 <Zakim> 4. Review of pull requests, available at [from 3 via agendabot]
16:43:46 <gkellogg> zakim, next item
16:43:46 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 3]
16:43:48 <ktk> Pull requests: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:44:08 <gkellogg> q+
16:44:31 <gkellogg> ack me
16:44:47 <gkellogg> gkellogg: I think the dirlangstring requests can be merged
16:44:55 <gkellogg> AndyS: What do we need to do about rdf:JSON
16:45:33 <gkellogg> gkellogg: not sure how to resolve without a concensus.
16:46:25 <gkellogg> ... Mostly about I-JSON limitations.
16:47:08 <gkellogg> pfps: I have two concerns: one is that JSON is JSON and has a syntax. It is not limited to IEEE floating-point syntax, and string syntax is not limited to nice codepoints.
16:47:21 <gkellogg> ... If you're going to say JSON do JSON.
16:47:38 <gkellogg> ... Otherwise, we'll confuse everyong.
16:47:42 <TallTed> s/say JSON do JSON/say JSON, do JSON/
16:48:00 <gkellogg> ... Also, I-JSON is not well defined; I don't know how to know what is I-JSON and what is not.
16:48:19 <gkellogg> ... It has to do with what floating point numeral relates with IEEE.
16:48:48 <gkellogg> ... If we're going to include it, someone's going to have to come up with a good definintion.
16:49:09 <gkellogg> ora: Let's say we go with what JSON says, do we need some guidance.
16:49:27 <AndyS> scribe+ AndyS
16:49:38 <TallTed> s/need some guidance./need some guidance?/
16:49:46 <AndyS> gkellogg: Codifying the work from JSON-LD
16:50:03 <AndyS> ... uses canonical form
16:50:25 <AndyS> ... it is what happens in JSOLD-LD libraries
16:50:45 <TallTed> s/JSOLD-LD/JSON-LD/
16:51:11 <AndyS> ... has been used for several years
16:51:59 <AndyS> ... there is now an RFC - wasn't at the time.
16:52:22 <AndyS> ... JSON-LD processing duplicates what is now the RFC
16:52:25 <TallTed> JSON Canonicalization Scheme (JCS) -- https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8785
16:52:58 <gkellogg> https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11-api/#dfn-canonical-lexical-form
16:53:30 <gkellogg> https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11/#the-rdf-json-datatype
16:53:59 <AndyS> gkellogg: JCS is mentioned
16:54:49 <AndyS> pfps: This is not IJSON?
16:55:49 <AndyS> ... defining doc from JSON-LD is 10.2 - lex space is all of JSON.
16:56:32 <AndyS> gkellogg: JCS used to get to value space
16:57:20 <AndyS> pfps: lex to value is parsing consistent ECMAscript.
16:57:39 <AndyS> gkellogg: my impl uses a different JCS impl.
16:57:51 <AndyS> pfps: what is the lexical space?
16:58:13 <AndyS> gkellogg: effectively IJSON because only way out of JSON-LD.
16:59:06 <AndyS> gekllogg: JSON-LD is RDF with constrainsts like no surrogates
16:59:47 <AndyS> pfps: does not limit lexical space to IJSON.
17:00:04 <TallTed> s/IJSON/I-JSON/
17:00:06 <TallTed> s/IJSON/I-JSON/
17:00:16 <TallTed> s/IJSON/I-JSON/
17:02:08 <gkellogg> ora: I'd like to see pfps and gkellogg work on a solution that is practical.
17:02:08 <TallTed> perhaps pfps and gkellogg could move this to the mailing list, or have a separate zoom session (perhaps using semantics TF call time), that others could also join
17:02:15 <AndyS> ora: this is an important issue to get right.
17:02:54 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:03:01 <gkellogg> ora: Next week is canceled.
17:03:17 <gkellogg> AndyS: There's an issue for deciding EXISTS errata.
17:03:24 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
17:03:43 <gkellogg> s/errata/criteria/
17:03:51 <gkellogg> zakim, end meeting
17:03:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gkellogg, pfps, ktk, olaf, AndyS, gtw, ora, TallTed, AZ, Dominik_T, tl, Souri, draggett, Erich_Bremer, enrico
17:03:51 <AndyS> s/deciding/deciding the criteria/
17:03:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
17:04:00 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gkellogg; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:04:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:06:55 <TallTed> gkellogg, pfps -- if you set up a special call, please have ora or AZ or pchampin add it to the group calendar, so it automagically shows up for subscribers. (Knowing my weaknesses, I will likely overlook it if announced on the mailing list.)
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20:25:45 <gkellogg> s/dirlangstring/directional language-tagged string/g
20:26:39 <gkellogg> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:26:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html gkellogg
20:28:09 <gkellogg> s/criteria EXISTS criteria/criteria for EXISTS/
20:28:14 <gkellogg> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:28:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html gkellogg
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<pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/10/26-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/11/16-rdf-star-minutes.html