13:59:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-wcag2ict-irc
13:59:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:59:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
13:59:13 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:16 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
13:59:16 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:59:26 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:59:33 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:59:40 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:59:40 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
13:59:53 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
13:59:58 <maryjom> Agenda+ FPWD public comments
14:00:05 <maryjom> Agenda+ Proposed change to guidance heading text
14:00:11 <maryjom> Agenda+   Survey results: Closed functionality: SCs 2.1.1, 2.4.2, and 2.4.5
14:00:16 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:40 <maryjom> Regrets: Mitch Evans, Olivia
14:00:42 <FernandaBonnin> FernandaBonnin has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:01:29 <maryjom> agenda ?
14:01:29 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:29 <FernandaBonnin> present+
14:01:29 <ShawnT> present+
14:01:29 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
14:02:00 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:32 <Sam> present+
14:03:05 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:03:05 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:03:05 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:05 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:03:05 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:03:10 <GreggVan> present+
14:03:20 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
14:03:26 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:03:48 <PhilDay> maryjom: Still 2 SCs for WCAG2.2 that need an author - dragging movements and ...
14:04:03 <GreggVan> can you put the links for those in IRC?
14:04:25 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Work-for-the-week#preparation-for-the-19-october-meeting
14:04:28 <PhilDay> ... focus not obscured
14:04:37 <PhilDay> maryjom: Link above is for the prep for next week
14:04:57 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/39
14:05:02 <PhilDay> (dragging movements)
14:05:08 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/39
14:05:11 <Bryan_Trogdon> Bryan_Trogdon has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:05:17 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/38
14:05:20 <Bryan_Trogdon> present+
14:05:31 <PhilDay> issue 38 is focus not obscured
14:05:31 <Sam> I will take up SC 2.4.11
14:05:34 <maryjom> Above 2 links are for SC 2.5.7 and 2.4.11
14:05:54 <PhilDay> maryjom: Another reminder
14:06:05 <PhilDay> get your surveys done early if at all possible
14:06:32 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:32 <bruce_bailey> i appreciated extra reminder for survey !
14:06:36 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:06:36 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- FPWD public comments -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:06:46 <Devanshu> present+
14:07:29 <PhilDay> You can always view the wiki to see what work is needed for the coming week - even if the email doesn't go out.
14:07:38 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Work-for-the-week
14:08:11 <PhilDay> Public comments. There are a number of comments -consider taking some on and drafting a response
14:08:50 <PhilDay> ... Some of them might need a discussion before completing the response - let Mary Jo know if you think discussion is needed. Otherwise use label function to say Ready for Review.
14:09:14 <PhilDay> ... For those who have taken on an issue, is there any discussion needed?
14:09:25 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:09:44 <PhilDay> bruce_bailey: Since so many are from Melanie, should we schedule a call with her?
14:10:11 <PhilDay> maryjom: I think it is more about getting a good answer from the group for her questions, rather than needing to understand her questions.
14:10:53 <PhilDay> One example - was heading - we are not putting the short name of the SC in the title. If we do that, then titles get even longer, so we will discuss this later.
14:11:50 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/225
14:11:50 <Chuck> q?
14:11:51 <PhilDay> Another example was CSS pixels, which Mitch is working on
14:12:32 <GreggVan> q+
14:12:46 <Chuck> ack Br
14:12:46 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:13:08 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Extremely rare is more helpful than 'never known'.
14:13:22 <PhilDay> ... Just in case you can usually find at least 1 example.
14:14:02 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Sets of software - we did find 3 examples last time we looked, but they are rare. Gregg would have to look at notes to find them.
14:14:58 <PhilDay> maryjom: Another one that will require discussion. Intent sections; she felt that the document gets too long.
14:15:10 <PhilDay> ... She suggested a link might suffice
14:15:31 <PhilDay> ... Maybe keep them in the drafts, but could consider swapping for a link for the final version
14:16:11 <GreggVan> q+
14:16:13 <PhilDay> ... Above are examples of issues that need taking up, and might need discussion
14:16:35 <GreggVan> q-
14:17:13 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Do we have collapsing text capability? That's a way of having something short, then read the text inline. Not sure if we can do it for notes.
14:17:25 <PhilDay> ... Chuck to ask if we can collapse elements within Notes
14:18:35 <maryjom> TOPIC: Draft response to Issue 228 on 2.1 Accessibility Services of Platform Software
14:18:48 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/228#issuecomment-1757456384
14:20:01 <PhilDay> ... Mary Jo shares screen to show response number #228
14:20:42 <PhilDay> ... We can't add in details about what tools could be used - out of scope for us, even if it might be useful.
14:21:14 <PhilDay> ... Had 5 +1s. Inviting comments from the call...
14:21:36 <Sam> +1 for MJ responce for issue 228
14:21:54 <PhilDay> ... No further comments so issue #228 can move from Draft to released.
14:22:08 <maryjom> Draft RESOLUTION: Send response for issue 228 as-is.
14:22:15 <Sam> +1
14:22:15 <Devanshu> +1
14:22:19 <PhilDay> +1
14:22:21 <ShawnT> +1
14:22:24 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:22:25 <Bryan_Trogdon> +1
14:22:31 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Send response for issue 228 as-is.
14:23:31 <PhilDay> Anyone else that has self assigned an issue - draft then use the Labels function to select [Ready for TF review]
14:23:40 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:23:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Proposed change to guidance heading text -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:23:51 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/238
14:24:00 <PhilDay> maryjom: This is also somewhat in response to one of Melanie's comments
14:24:50 <bruce_bailey> Woot!
14:24:51 <PhilDay> maryjom: shows some of the latest changes to draft. Success criteria now have the correct numbering on them which required Daniel to do some post processing.
14:24:58 <PhilDay> Thanks to Daniel for the hard work.
14:24:59 <PhilDay> q+
14:25:04 <bruce_bailey> q+ to ask about link
14:25:05 <Chuck> q+
14:25:21 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:26:01 <PhilDay> PhilDay: Will we break the numbers in the future with other edits?
14:26:10 <PhilDay> maryjom: No - we just pull the filename in markdown
14:26:13 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:26:13 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask about link
14:26:18 <PhilDay> ... so it will stay aligned.
14:26:48 <PhilDay> bruce_bailey: Requesting link from editors draft. If you go to the Code view of the repository - link is always at the end of the readme at the foot of the page
14:27:01 <PhilDay> https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/
14:27:03 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:27:28 <PhilDay> Reverting to issue #238 on shortening headings, adding SC short name to headings
14:27:44 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/238
14:28:14 <PhilDay> This gets rather long and repetitive. MJ worked up some different versions and illustrated how it would look for different types of heading.
14:28:20 <Sam> q+
14:28:52 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:28:53 <dmontalvo> q+
14:29:25 <maryjom> ack sam
14:29:28 <PhilDay> Feedback so far on issue; Phil & Olivia like the idea of removing principle, guideline etc from title. Mike not convinced
14:29:49 <PhilDay> Sam: Like the shorter one - better for text to speech so you can make it quicker to navigate
14:29:55 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:30:40 <PhilDay> Mike_Pluke: I take that point. However, recently went to a group that uses EN 301 549 for evaluating websites. They are not experts, and may not be familiar with WCAG, so adding in extra items might help them to understand.
14:31:00 <PhilDay> ... Don't feel really strongly.
14:31:03 <maryjom> ack dmontalvo
14:31:25 <PhilDay> dmontalvo: Maybe we can go beyond this
14:31:39 <FernandaBonnin> q+
14:31:44 <PhilDay> Don't even bother with "Applying 1 to" and just do "1 to "
14:32:12 <dmontalvo> Perceivable for Non-Web documents and Software
14:32:31 <dmontalvo> or Principle 1 Perceivable for Non-Web Documents and Software
14:32:33 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
14:32:59 <PhilDay> FernandaBonnin: I agree that titles are long, but agree with comment in the issue. Having them look similar to WCAG guidelines helps to familiarise and understand what you are reading about.
14:33:09 <PhilDay> ... Think the longer titles is more comprehensible
14:34:19 <PhilDay> ... Mary Jo shows what is in the document.
14:34:35 <PhilDay> Guidance When Applying Guideline 1.4 to.... (we don't have the short name for 1.4)
14:34:46 <dmontalvo> q?
14:34:55 <PhilDay> ... All of them have "Guidance when applying 0.0"
14:35:24 <PhilDay> If we feel that we must include success criterion, at least put the text after the number to help screen reader users to navigate more quickly
14:35:28 <Mike_Pluke> Q+
14:35:50 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:36:37 <GreggVan> q+
14:36:43 <PhilDay> Mike_Pluke: Agree that "Applying Guideline" is less relevant. Also personally substitute SC for success criteria to reduce the text. So could do "Applying SC 1.x SHORT NAME"
14:36:54 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:37:11 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:37:44 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Agree with Mike. just define SC at the top, then don't need to type out Success Criteria repeatedly
14:38:04 <PhilDay> ... Guideline is less of an issue as it is used less commonly.
14:38:09 <maryjom> Applying Principle 1 Perceivable to Non-web Documents and Software
14:38:17 <maryjom> Applying Guideline 1.1 Text Alternatives to Non-web Documents and Software
14:38:47 <PhilDay> bruce_bailey: Thinks that for principle and guideline this approach works
14:38:53 <bruce_bailey> ack me
14:39:09 <maryjom> Draft RESOLUTION: Change Guideline and principle headings as posted above.
14:39:14 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:39:15 <PhilDay> q+
14:39:45 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:40:06 <PhilDay> PhilDay: Suggests adding brackets around the short name, to make it easier to parse the overall title
14:40:37 <Sam> +q what does that look like? Can you provide an example?
14:41:03 <PhilDay> maryjom: Now showing WCAG 2.2 to show guidelines short names to see if we need additional punctuation.
14:41:22 <PhilDay> bruce_bailey: short names are probably OK
14:41:27 <dmontalvo> And also in WCAG itself there's no quotes or punctuation: Guideline 1.1 Text Alternatives
14:41:30 <PhilDay> q+
14:42:04 <maryjom> Draft RESOLUTION: Change Guideline and principle headings as posted above.
14:42:08 <PhilDay> +1
14:42:09 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:42:09 <Bryan_Trogdon> +1
14:42:12 <Sam> +1
14:42:21 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:42:22 <maryjom> +1
14:42:24 <GreggVan> +1
14:42:31 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:42:35 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Change Guideline and principle headings as posted above.
14:42:54 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:42:55 <maryjom> Option 1: Applying SC 1.1.1 Non-text Contrast to Non-web Documents and Software
14:43:08 <PhilDay> For Success criteria, we could just use SC
14:43:10 <maryjom> Option 2: Applying Success Criterion 1.1.1 Non-text Contrast to Non-web Documents and Software
14:43:22 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:43:26 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:44:13 <PhilDay> bruce_bailey: With the Success criteria, you have the long part of the success criteria right before this, so we could just use the number in context
14:44:56 <PhilDay> q+ to say use the short name for consistency
14:44:59 <GreggVan> q+
14:45:01 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:45:01 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to say use the short name for consistency
14:45:22 <PhilDay> PhilDay: Keep short names in the title for consistency
14:45:34 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Sometimes people get lost when jumping titles
14:45:54 <PhilDay> ... so it might be worth using the short name as well, because the numbers are less perceivable
14:45:55 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:46:06 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:46:11 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:46:45 <GreggVan> +1
14:46:52 <PhilDay> bruce_bailey: Screen reader users would like to skip, so just put "Applying" at the start to make them easily distinguishable
14:47:02 <maryjom> Poll: Which option is your preference?
14:47:19 <PhilDay> 1
14:47:21 <FernandaBonnin> 1
14:47:23 <Bryan_Trogdon> 1
14:47:27 <Mike_Pluke> 1
14:47:27 <GreggVan> 1
14:47:27 <Sam> Option 1
14:47:29 <ShawnT> 1
14:47:38 <bruce_bailey> use "sc" i forget if that is 1 or 2
14:48:22 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Update the headings for the SC guidance using option 1 above.
14:49:02 <PhilDay> Only thing left - definitions. Presume we do the same "Applying DEFINITION NAME to non-web..."
14:49:35 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: update term definitions to be consistent such as "Applying “accessibility supported” to Non-Web Documents and Software"
14:49:43 <PhilDay> +1
14:49:45 <Sam> +1
14:49:48 <GreggVan> +1
14:49:49 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:49:50 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:49:53 <Bryan_Trogdon> +1
14:50:01 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: update term definitions to be consistent such as "Applying “accessibility supported” to Non-Web Documents and Software"
14:50:08 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:50:08 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Survey results: Closed functionality: SCs 2.1.1, 2.4.2, and 2.4.5 -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:50:59 <PhilDay> SC 1.2.1.1 Keyboard. 5 responses, split between option 2 or 3
14:52:03 <PhilDay> Changes are editorial: "product with closed functionality". Everyone was amenable to both options. Slight majority for option 3, with "products with closed functionality"
14:52:23 <PhilDay> No comments heard, so polling.
14:52:41 <GreggVan> q+
14:52:47 <maryjom> Option 3:  2.1.1 Keyboard — Requires operation via a keyboard interface which allows alternative input devices. When a closed functionality product either does not have a standard keyboard or one cannot be connected, it would need an alternate way to access all functionality that does not require accurate pointing, path-based movements, or specific timings.
14:53:24 <maryjom> Option 3 with edit:  2.1.1 Keyboard — Requires operation via a keyboard interface which allows alternative input devices. When a product with closed functionality either does not have a standard keyboard or one cannot be connected, it would need an alternate way to access all functionality that does not require accurate pointing, path-based movements, or specific timings.
14:53:26 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Keyboard interface is better than just keyboard
14:53:33 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:53:35 <GreggVan> 3
14:53:57 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:54:07 <Chuck> ack Br
14:54:57 <maryjom> Poll: Incorporate 2.1.1 Keyboard option 3 with edits, as above. 1) Yes 2) no
14:54:57 <PhilDay> 1
14:54:57 <Sam> 1
14:54:57 <bruce_bailey> 1
14:54:57 <Mike_Pluke> 1
14:54:59 <Bryan_Trogdon> 1
14:55:11 <maryjom> Resolution: Incorporate 2.1.1 Keyboard option 3 with edits, as above. 1) Yes 2) no
14:55:19 <GreggVan> q+
14:55:41 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate 2.1.1 Keyboard option 3 with edits, as above.
14:55:47 <ShawnT> +1
14:55:59 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:57:19 <PhilDay> GreggVan: You can do alternative forms of input (e.g. speech input). How you apply this to closed products. If you close the ability to add other assistive technology, then it becomes more difficult.
14:57:25 <maryjom> TOPIC: 2.4.2 Page titled
14:58:05 <bruce_bailey> good edit from Olivia
14:58:05 <PhilDay> Next one 2.4.2 Page titled. All liked option 2, Olivia had a slight editorial
14:59:26 <GreggVan> q+
14:59:41 <PhilDay> Comment was whether we need a definition.
14:59:42 <maryjom> ack gregg
14:59:57 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Was going to say the same thing - we need to define it.
15:00:05 <Sam> +1
15:00:29 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Accept Option 2 for 2.4.2 Page Titled, as-is.
15:00:32 <Sam> +1
15:00:32 <GreggVan> +1
15:00:33 <PhilDay> +1
15:00:35 <Devanshu> +1
15:00:40 <Bryan_Trogdon> +1
15:00:40 <Mike_Pluke> +1
15:01:01 <PhilDay> RESOLUTION: Accept Option 2 for 2.4.2 Page Titled, as-is.
15:01:05 <bruce_bailey> +1
15:01:10 <GreggVan> +++
15:01:11 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Accept Option 2 for 2.4.2 Page Titled, as-is.
15:01:11 <PhilDay> Survey contains definition for menu driven interface
15:01:32 <PhilDay> reagent, draft minutes
15:01:34 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
15:01:43 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
15:02:57 <dmontalvo> zakim, end meeting
15:02:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been FernandaBonnin, ShawnT, Sam, Mike_Pluke, GreggVan, Daniel, bruce_bailey, Bryan_Trogdon, Devanshu, ++
15:02:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:03:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:03:06 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dmontalvo; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:03:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:04:39 <dmontalvo> s/reagent, draft minutes//
15:04:47 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-wcag2ict-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:08:20 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #WCAG2ICT
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17:45:15 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
17:45:31 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
17:45:31 <RRSAgent> I see no action items