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14:45:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:46:02 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:46:02 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:46:17 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:46:26 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:47:22 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata is restructured.
14:48:11 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ What to display in case of absence of metadata · Issue #184
14:48:28 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business
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15:01:22 <George> present+
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15:02:31 <gautier> present+
15:02:32 <gpellegrino> present+
15:02:32 <gpellegrino> scribe+
15:02:32 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:02:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata is restructured. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:02:34 <ChrisOliverOttawa_> present+
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15:03:12 <Naomi> present+
15:03:27 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: first agenda item: the restructuring piece
15:03:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:03:46 <gpellegrino> ... we started this work on the document on the "Key information" section
15:04:09 <gpellegrino> ... now that this section is pretty stable, we moved to organize the rest of the document
15:04:09 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
15:04:54 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
15:05:04 <gpellegrino> ... in this new version we're removing the prioritization of metadata, since it's up to the retailer to decide what to display first
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15:05:46 <CharlesL> present+
15:05:51 <gpellegrino> ... the general information and introduction is the old one, the "key information" section was renamed "key accessibility information"
15:06:06 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
15:06:25 <gpellegrino> ... me moved "Discovering accessible content" after key information
15:07:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> This is looking great!
15:07:18 <gpellegrino> ... then we have "Localization" and "Implementations" where we'll list different implementations (VitalSource and Fondazione LIA are ready, maybe also someone from France)
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15:08:24 <gpellegrino> George: what about the importance of different key informations?
15:08:59 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: I would leave defining the order of key information to implementers
15:09:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:10:02 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: maybe we can use a bullet list, so we don't define an order, but just listing
15:10:05 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
15:10:15 <mgarrish> present+
15:10:28 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: any feedback?
15:10:29 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:10:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack bill
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15:11:16 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:11:45 <gpellegrino> Bill_Kasdorf: we may explicit that there may be different orders for information based on different use cases
15:12:11 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:12:17 <gpellegrino> ... it's difficult to make comments on order because you highlight something and "hide" something else
15:12:30 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
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15:12:37 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:12:44 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-pcg-a11y-minutes.html CharlesL
15:12:56 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:13:07 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: if there is no objection, then let's move on!
15:13:09 <jgriggs> present+
15:13:14 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:13:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- What to display in case of absence of metadata · Issue #184 -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:13:33 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: new topic: what to display when we don't have metadata from the epub creator
15:13:34 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/184
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15:14:37 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: when publisher omit something in the metadata, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist
15:14:44 <gpellegrino> ... for example hazards
15:15:21 <gpellegrino> q+
15:15:47 <Naomi> q+
15:15:49 <gpellegrino> ... or like alt-text may mean that we don't have or these are not provided
15:16:06 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
15:16:17 <gpellegrino> ... or conformance
15:16:42 <gpellegrino> q-
15:16:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> I like James
15:17:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> . . . James's suggestion: say "Not reported
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15:18:22 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: during editors call we identified three information that should be displayed even if missing: Supports nonvisual reading, Visual adjustments, Conformance
15:18:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:18:43 <gpellegrino> ... we would like to have feedback from the group
15:19:03 <gpellegrino> Naomi: I think we had discussion on this
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15:19:28 <CharlesL> q+
15:19:34 <CharlesL> ack Naomi
15:19:52 <gpellegrino> ... doing a lot of remediation semi-automatically it is difficult to say something that requires human check
15:20:10 <JonasLillqvist> q+
15:20:13 <AvneeshSingh> ack char
15:20:50 <gpellegrino> ... to the absence of metadata should be clarified, because in some cases some feature may be present, but not listed in metadata
15:21:04 <AvneeshSingh> ack jon
15:21:10 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: I would use Accessibility Summary for telling this
15:21:34 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:21:36 <gpellegrino> JonasLillqvist: I would ask about Visual Adjustments: what is the metadata behind it?
15:21:38 <gpellegrino> q+
15:21:41 <gautier> Visual adjustments is display transformability yes.
15:21:56 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:21:58 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:22:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:22:51 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: displayTransformability, if we have this, this means the content can change to user preferences, ONIX latest there is way to express this with a code in ONIX (I can't recall right now).
15:22:59 <CharlesL> q+
15:23:03 <gautier> q+
15:23:58 <CharlesL> JonasLillqvist: displayTransormability can be difficult to understand.
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15:24:08 <AvneeshSingh> ack bill
15:24:20 <gpellegrino> JonasLillqvist: yes, sometimes displaytransformability is used to divide reflowable from fixed layout
15:24:30 <Naomi> This is the a11y-discov-vocab ticket I was referring to: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-discov-vocab/issues/74
15:25:04 <CharlesL> Bill: how broadly are you considering displayTransformability?
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15:26:20 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: There are different levels, we check against WCAG for reflow, enlarging text, we check that.  There are some publishers who put this in al reflow EPUBs. 95% reflowable EPUBs can adjust font size etc.
15:26:58 <CharlesL> Bill: publishers may just automaticly choose displayTransformability. since the Reading Systems can do this.
15:27:22 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: could have a reflowable EPUB but could be still problematic.
15:27:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack char
15:27:58 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: we didn't update the techniques document, there will be updated links to tell the metadata behind this key information
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15:28:16 <George> q?
15:28:26 <George> q+
15:29:00 <gpellegrino> ... in our program we check that metadata reflects the content
15:29:28 <gpellegrino> ... to be sure that is not used in not correct manner
15:29:31 <gpellegrino> q+
15:29:32 <gautier> q-
15:29:33 <JonasLillqvist> q+
15:29:35 <gpellegrino> q-
15:29:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack gau
15:29:57 <AvneeshSingh> ack geor
15:30:05 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
15:30:38 <AvneeshSingh> ack jon
15:30:39 <gpellegrino> George: we should make sure that is the textual content that will be transformed
15:31:44 <CharlesL> q+
15:31:59 <gpellegrino> JonasLillqvist: I just looked at the DAISY Knowledge Base, to check what are their requirements for displaytrasformability: not image of text, proportionate units of measures
15:32:13 <gpellegrino> ... I think the "images of text" is too strong as requirement
15:32:14 <AvneeshSingh> ack char
15:33:29 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: It's true that infographics or images of tables are difficult to manage in live text, so we require to have an alt-text and an extended description
15:33:56 <gpellegrino> ... I think that with these mitigations you can claim that displaytrasformability is true
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15:34:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:34:52 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: I think this is a long discussion, I posted a link to a PR trying to work on this
15:34:52 <gpellegrino> q+
15:35:00 <gpellegrino> q-
15:35:19 <gpellegrino> ... not sure if alt-text can me a mitigation
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15:36:17 <gpellegrino> ... we need further discussion
15:36:17 <CharlesL> s/can me a/can be a
15:37:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:37:10 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: If we have an agreement on how to evaluate displaytransformability
15:38:01 <gpellegrino> ... then we may has displaytransformability displayed even if not present?
15:38:05 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:38:11 <gpellegrino> ... ok let's update the guidance
15:38:40 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: do you want other metadata group to be in the "display even with no metadata" group?
15:39:39 <gautier> q+
15:39:39 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: I think navigation may also be important
15:39:39 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:39:39 <gpellegrino> ... expecially for textbooks
15:39:39 <Naomi> q+
15:39:39 <gpellegrino> q+
15:39:39 <AvneeshSingh> ack gau
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15:40:05 <gpellegrino> gautier: I think it is about the audience, if I'm in a scholar context Navigation is important
15:40:07 <gpellegrino> q-
15:40:20 <gpellegrino> ... in fiction this is less important
15:41:13 <gpellegrino> ... same in academic: pagelist is important
15:41:33 <gpellegrino> ... but I also know that a lot of books do have TOC
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15:42:15 <gpellegrino> ... so maybe we can recomend to display something about navigation even if no metadata is present
15:42:30 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:43:04 <gpellegrino> Naomi: Same as Gauthier, but with the example about "Math and Charts"
15:43:41 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:43:54 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: I think "Conformance" is really important, the other information is more contextual
15:44:12 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:44:33 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:44:33 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Any other business -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:44:39 <gpellegrino> ... so we agree to have three information to display always (telling that are missing, if no metadata is present): "Supports nonvisual reading", "Visual adjustments", "Conformance"
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15:45:07 <gpellegrino> George: the issue about certification, we had feedback about "self-certified"
15:45:09 <gpellegrino> q+
15:46:06 <gpellegrino> ... so I updated the section according to this, I think this simplify the conformance section
15:46:10 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:26 <gpellegrino> ... we leave to the user to "check" the certifier
15:46:26 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:46:37 <gpellegrino> q-
15:47:27 <gpellegrino> I would say that at the Frankfurt Book Fair there are two events about metadata and accessibility
15:48:04 <gpellegrino> Supply Chain Seminar from EditEUR (next Tueasday), and accessibility round table (on wednesday)
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15:48:45 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:48:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-pcg-a11y-minutes.html CharlesL
15:48:58 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
15:49:08 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
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15:50:04 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
15:50:04 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, George, gautier, gpellegrino, ChrisOliverOttawa_, Naomi, Bill_Kasdorf, CharlesL, mgarrish, jgriggs
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