IRC log of i18n on 2023-10-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:36:29 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #i18n

13:36:33 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-irc

13:36:38 [agendabot]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c5b143d1-0a5b-4adb-8d60-0f5f9bfe5a41/20231012T150000/

13:36:38 [agendabot]

clear agenda

13:36:38 [agendabot]

agenda+ Agenda Review

13:36:38 [agendabot]

agenda+ Action Items

13:36:40 [agendabot]

agenda+ Info Share

13:36:42 [agendabot]

agenda+ RADAR Review

13:36:44 [agendabot]

agenda+ Pending Issue Review

13:36:47 [agendabot]

agenda+ Definition of 'string' revisited

13:36:48 [addison]

Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

13:36:49 [agendabot]

agenda+ Emphasis mark skipping

13:36:51 [agendabot]

agenda+ AOB?

13:36:54 [addison]

Chair: Addison Phillips

13:37:12 [addison]

agenda+ Review 'needs-attention' issues

13:45:10 [addison]

agenda+ String-meta next steps

13:54:44 [JcK]

JcK has joined #i18n

13:56:09 [addison]

present+ Addison

13:56:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html addison

13:56:58 [xfq]

xfq has joined #i18n

13:59:56 [addison]

present+ Atsushi, JcK, Richard

13:59:59 [JcK]

present+ JcK

14:00:49 [addison]

present+ Fuqiao

14:01:29 [Najib]

Najib has joined #i18n

14:01:29 [xfq]

scribe: xfq

14:02:27 [addison]

present+ Bert

14:03:05 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 1

14:03:05 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:03:05 [addison]

agenda?

14:04:01 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 2

14:04:01 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:04:21 [gb]

Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #51, #50, #49, #48, #47, #46, #44, #43, #42, #41, #39, #35, #33, #32, #18, #16, #12, #11, #10, #8, #7, #5, #4

14:04:27 [addison]

#51

14:04:27 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/51 -> Action 51 inform fuqiao and richard what to name the string-meta-2 repo (on aphillips) due 2023-10-12

14:04:50 [addison]

#50

14:04:51 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/50 -> Action 50 raise TAG request about reviewing string definitions (on aphillips) due 2023-10-12

14:05:15 [addison]

close #50

14:05:17 [gb]

Closed -> action #50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/50

14:05:23 [addison]

#49

14:05:23 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49 -> Action 49 contact unicode about emphasis mark skipping (on aphillips) due 2023-10-05

14:05:50 [addison]

close #49

14:05:53 [gb]

Closed -> action #49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49

14:05:54 [addison]

#48

14:05:54 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/48 -> Action 48 work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal (on xfq) due 2023-10-05

14:06:08 [addison]

#47

14:06:09 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04

14:06:21 [addison]

#46

14:06:21 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46 -> Action 46 read the string-meta explainer and consider the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28

14:06:32 [addison]

close #46

14:06:34 [gb]

Closed -> action #46 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46

14:06:36 [addison]

#44

14:06:37 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/44 -> Action 44 follow up on the bidi thread of rdf-star (on r12a) due 2023-09-19

14:06:51 [addison]

#43

14:06:52 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18

14:07:10 [addison]

#42

14:07:10 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42 -> Action 42 work on tc39 proposal (meet with addison and eemeli to start) (on xfq) due 2023-09-18

14:07:35 [addison]

close #42

14:07:37 [gb]

Closed -> action #42 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42

14:07:38 [addison]

#41

14:07:39 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/41 -> Action 41 propose new specdev text on strings for xml (on aphillips) due 2023-09-07

14:07:52 [xfq]

addison: hoping to work on #43 next week

14:08:02 [addison]

#39

14:08:02 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39 -> Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31

14:08:09 [addison]

#35

14:08:11 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30

14:08:15 [addison]

#33

14:08:15 [xfq]

... xfq, please send an email to eemeli to say that we no longer need to do this any more re #42

14:08:16 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)

14:08:27 [xfq]

xfq: will do

14:08:40 [addison]

#32

14:08:40 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32 -> Action 32 Approve the character markup PR (on fantasai) due 2023-08-17

14:09:06 [addison]

close #32

14:09:08 [gb]

Closed -> action #32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32

14:09:11 [xfq]

addison: we did #32

14:09:27 [xfq]

r12a: we pushed some CSS to tr-design

14:09:37 [xfq]

... did that CSS include the image styling?

14:09:41 [xfq]

addison: yes

14:09:47 [gb]

Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #51, #48, #47, #44, #43, #41, #39, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #10, #8, #7, #5, #4

14:09:49 [xfq]

... we should be cool in that regard now

14:09:53 [addison]

#18

14:09:54 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)

14:09:58 [addison]

#16

14:09:58 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips)

14:10:03 [addison]

#12

14:10:04 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips)

14:10:26 [addison]

#11

14:10:26 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal)

14:10:32 [addison]

#10

14:10:33 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai)

14:10:38 [addison]

#8

14:10:38 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips)

14:10:43 [addison]

#7

14:10:43 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github)

14:10:48 [addison]

#5

14:10:48 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a)

14:11:50 [addison]

#4

14:11:50 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a)

14:12:31 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 3

14:12:31 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:12:37 [xfq]

addison: about #4, I've recently unblocked part of it

14:12:53 [addison]

agenda?

14:13:11 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 4

14:13:11 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:13:19 [addison]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

14:13:36 [xfq]

addison: we have no new incoming requests

14:14:05 [xfq]

Bert: started vc-jose-cose

14:14:25 [addison]

agenda?

14:14:26 [xfq]

... lots of technologies that are not W3C technologies that I have to look up

14:14:31 [xfq]

... not finished

14:14:47 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 10

14:14:48 [Zakim]

agendum 10 -- String-meta next steps -- taken up [from addison]

14:15:16 [xfq]

addison: last week, we discussed taking the stuff I added to the explainer and turning those into a note

14:16:08 [xfq]

... upon reflection, my proposal is to keep string-meta as the best practices doc and to create a requirement doc

14:17:11 [xfq]

r12a: I guess I had misunderstood what we were planning to do last week

14:17:23 [xfq]

... I thought this was all about doing something with the explainer

14:17:31 [xfq]

... making the explainer more focused

14:17:49 [xfq]

... I hadn't realized that you wanted to move stuff out of the string-meta document

14:18:15 [xfq]

... I still think the explainer is needed, but it needs to be way way way shorter than what we currently have

14:18:30 [xfq]

... I think some of the stuff that we have in the explainer is like an FAQ

14:18:47 [xfq]

... we could restructure string-meta a little

14:19:22 [xfq]

... I would have thought that if we have the introduction followed by some text that says this is the stuff you really need to read

14:19:42 [xfq]

... we don't necessarily have to move the rest of the stuff out

14:19:53 [xfq]

addison: I can make structural changes

14:20:18 [xfq]

... we don't have to move things out of there unless they're distracting

14:20:45 [xfq]

... the best practices section i think needs a massive rewrite in light of the changes that we want to make

14:21:09 [xfq]

... given that we're doing something different than the explainer originally did

14:21:21 [xfq]

... the rewrite of the explainer should make it much cleaner

14:22:51 [xfq]

r12a: the audience for the explainer is kind of different from the string-meta document

14:23:27 [xfq]

... I think it would be clear to be clear about what the audience is

14:23:43 [xfq]

... string-meta is kind of general purpose for anybody

14:23:55 [xfq]

... it has all the information that you would need

14:24:08 [xfq]

... the explainer is useful for TC39

14:24:39 [xfq]

... my question is what are we trying to do with the explainer?

14:24:46 [xfq]

... do we need more than one explainer?

14:24:54 [xfq]

addison: should these be articles?

14:24:59 [xfq]

r12a: yeah

14:25:05 [xfq]

addison: OK, so let's do this

14:25:24 [xfq]

... I think we need to change string-meta because that's the core document

14:25:41 [xfq]

... and redo the explainer so it's focused in the right way

14:26:06 [xfq]

... and the third thing is to decide a durable location

14:26:19 [xfq]

... I don't think a github markdown page is the right location

14:26:32 [xfq]

... maybe let's fix the explainer first

14:27:09 [xfq]

... explaining language metadata is relatively straightforward

14:27:30 [xfq]

... it's not a huge thing

14:27:44 [xfq]

... but explaining bidi seems to be a full-time job

14:28:47 [xfq]

Explainer -> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/blob/gh-pages/explainers/string-meta-explainer-updated.md

14:29:27 [xfq]

r12a: the WG-specific stuff targeting a particular audience is perhaps enough for another explainer

14:29:43 [xfq]

addison: agreed

14:30:22 [xfq]

... in the current explainer there's a section that says what are "spillover effects"

14:30:34 [xfq]

... that whole thing probably just goes away

14:31:14 [xfq]

r12a: I was going to say that you do have some other useful stuff like what we want TC39 and Ecma to do

14:31:18 [xfq]

... that's really useful

14:31:29 [xfq]

addison: I'll take the action to fix the explainer

14:31:45 [xfq]

r12a: the first thing is to decide who's the audience for the explainer

14:31:54 [xfq]

... and whether we need one or more

14:32:05 [xfq]

... and then fix the explainer to meet the audience

14:32:09 [xfq]

addison: I agree

14:32:31 [xfq]

... we need to do some work on organizing the documents

14:32:46 [addison]

agenda?

14:33:01 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 7

14:33:01 [Zakim]

agendum 7 -- Emphasis mark skipping -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:33:20 [addison]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2023OctDec/0013.html

14:33:25 [xfq]

addison: did everybody follow that thread?

14:33:40 [addison]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2023OctDec/0011.html

14:34:01 [addison]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2023OctDec/0011.html

14:34:22 [xfq]

addison: Ken and Robin Leroy replied to my email

14:35:10 [xfq]

... basically I asked Unicode if they wanted to keep track of character property for emphasis mark skipping

14:35:23 [xfq]

... and the answer was approximately no

14:35:51 [xfq]

... and more specifically, it sounds like someone could write a Unicode technical note

14:36:02 [xfq]

... someone in this case means CSS

14:36:27 [xfq]

r12a: Unicode folks might start more technical notes as well

14:36:36 [xfq]

... like how to implement Kashmiri

14:36:51 [xfq]

addison: the process is not clear

14:37:06 [xfq]

... and the learning curve is steep

14:37:24 [xfq]

r12a: note sure if it's that complicated

14:37:34 [xfq]

... they don't require a particular format

14:37:45 [xfq]

... you can publish an HTML page and link to it

14:37:52 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 6

14:37:52 [Zakim]

agendum 6 -- Definition of 'string' revisited -- taken up [from agendabot]

14:38:09 [addison]

https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/117

14:38:17 [xfq]

... you can see the technical notes written by Norbert Lindenberg, for example

14:38:27 [xfq]

... just produce something similar to that

14:38:32 [addison]

https://deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string

14:39:09 [xfq]

addison: have a look and see what you think

14:39:25 [xfq]

... the difference here mainly is I pulled the mustard to the front

14:39:31 [xfq]

... which is our style

14:39:39 [xfq]

... and then the explanatory text

14:40:34 [xfq]

r12a: I thought we were going to say use USVString unless you need to use DOMString

14:40:47 [xfq]

addison: I'm reluctant to break that for the moment

14:41:31 [xfq]

... in the HTML space and the JS space, you pretty much want to use DOMStrings

14:41:41 [xfq]

... but everywhere else it's wrong

14:41:53 [xfq]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:41:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html xfq

14:42:07 [xfq]

... is that the only thing that's wrong with this section?

14:42:32 [xfq]

r12a: it just seems kind of weird to dogmatically state the opposite of what we think really should be the case

14:42:53 [xfq]

... or make it clear this is a preliminary guideline based on the current TAG practice

14:45:23 [xfq]

addison: trying to fixing the linking in i18n-glossary

14:45:35 [r12a]

https://respec.org/xref/?term=UTF-16&types=_CONCEPT_

14:45:36 [xfq]

xfq: it could be a bug in ReSpec

14:45:40 [xfq]

addison: could be

14:47:41 [xfq]

xfq: if we want to link to it in other specs, we need to use class="export"

14:47:58 [xfq]

... like <dfn class="export">UTF-16</dfn>

14:48:27 [addison]

agenda?

14:48:50 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 9

14:48:50 [Zakim]

agendum 9 -- Review 'needs-attention' issues -- taken up [from addison]

14:48:57 [xfq]

xfq has joined #i18n

14:49:06 [addison]

gb, list open issues from w3c/i18n-activity with label needs-attention

14:49:06 [gb]

addison, sorry, I don't understand what you want me to do. Maybe try "help"?

14:50:11 [r12a]

gb, list open issues from w3c/i18n-activity

14:51:12 [addison]

gb, list open issues with label needs-attention from w3c/i18n-activity

14:51:12 [gb]

addison, sorry, I don't understand what you want me to do. Maybe try "help"?

14:51:20 [addison]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Aneeds-attention

14:51:40 [addison]

w3c/i18n-activity#1758

14:51:41 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1758 -> Issue 1758 Reference for punycode-encoding of IDN (by w3cbot) [tracker] [needs-attention] [s:rdf-concepts]

14:52:02 [addison]

https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/63

14:52:03 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/63 -> Issue 63 Reference for punycode-encoding of IDN (by domel) [i18n-tracker] [spec:substantive]

14:53:16 [xfq]

addison: do we need to change this to needs-resolution?

14:53:43 [xfq]

JcK: almost any time you talk about Punycode you're saying something wrong

14:53:54 [xfq]

... but I don't quite understand what the issue is here

14:54:10 [Bert]

gb, list open issues with label needs-attention from REPO w3c/i18n-activity

14:54:10 [gb]

Found issues in w3c/i18n-activity: #1758, #1560, #1361, #1026, #980, #809, #765, #590, #506, #404, #370, #259, #258, #219, #216, #98, #78, #46, #8

14:54:11 [xfq]

addison: RDF has a bunch of stuff about URL resolution

14:55:34 [addison]

w3c/i18n-activity#1560

14:55:35 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1560 -> Issue 1560 support Unicode(or UTF-8 encoded) identifiers (by w3cbot) [close?] [tracker] [needs-attention] [s:wasm-core] [t:char_ranges] [t:markup_identifiers]

14:55:50 [addison]

https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues/830

14:55:50 [gb]

https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues/830 -> CLOSED Issue 830 support Unicode(or UTF-8 encoded) identifiers (by Zhang-Junzhi) [future feature] [i18n-tracker]

14:57:16 [xfq]

addison: this is an issue they created themselves, xfq discovered and tracked

14:57:41 [xfq]

... I don't think we have enough information to keep it open

14:58:34 [xfq]

xfq: do we have guidelines in specdev about Unicode identifiers?

14:58:54 [xfq]

addison: it's good to allow them to be non-ASCII

14:59:03 [xfq]

r12a: I'm not sure the WG decided against it

14:59:03 [addison]

https://github.com/WebAssembly/spec/issues?q=is%3Aissue+unicode+names

15:00:08 [xfq]

r12a: it sounded more to me like there's not enough interest

15:01:22 [xfq]

... what's the status of the document?

15:02:34 [xfq]

xfq: https://www.w3.org/TR/wasm-core-1/ is REC

15:02:34 [xfq]

... https://www.w3.org/TR/wasm-core-2/ is FPWD

15:03:45 [xfq]

Transition request: https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/119

15:03:46 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/119 -> CLOSED Issue 119 [WASM] CR transition for WebAssembly Core Specification (by ericprud) [Entering CR] [Awaiting Editor] [Awaiting Team Contact]

15:05:28 [atsushi]

atsushi has joined #i18n

15:05:37 [addison]

zakim, take up agendum 8

15:05:37 [Zakim]

agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]

15:05:58 [xfq]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:05:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html xfq

15:07:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/12-i18n-minutes.html addison

15:07:41 [xfq]

xfq has joined #i18n

15:09:07 [addison]

zakim, bye

15:09:07 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Atsushi, JcK, Richard, Fuqiao, Bert

15:09:07 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #i18n