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13:49:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-i18n-irc
13:49:48 <addison> agendabot, find agenda
13:49:48 <agendabot> addison, OK. This may take a minute...
13:49:49 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c5b143d1-0a5b-4adb-8d60-0f5f9bfe5a41/20231005T150000/
13:49:49 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:49:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:49:49 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:49:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:49:53 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:49:55 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
13:49:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:49:58 <agendabot> agenda+ Definition of 'string' revisited
13:50:01 <agendabot> agenda+ String-Meta next steps
13:50:02 <agendabot> agenda+ VCWG special call results
13:50:03 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:50:05 <agendabot> agenda+ HTML EAI support in input type=email
13:50:07 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:50:14 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:55:04 <addison> present+ Addison
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14:01:48 <r12a> present+
14:02:03 <JcK> present+ JcK
14:02:43 <ap> ap has joined #i18n
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14:07:43 <addison_> regrets+ Fuqiao
14:08:02 <Bert> scribe+
14:08:11 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:08:11 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:08:13 <addison_> agenda?
14:08:59 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:08:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:09:06 <addison_> gb, list open actions
14:09:07 <gb> Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #49, #48, #47, #46, #44, #43, #42, #41, #39, #35, #33, #32, #18, #16, #12, #11, #10, #8, #7, #5, #4
14:09:10 <addison_> #49
14:09:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/49 -> Action 49 contact unicode about emphasis mark skipping (on aphillips) due 2023-10-05
14:09:34 <addison_> #48
14:09:35 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/48 -> Action 48 work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal (on xfq) due 2023-10-05
14:09:41 <Bert> addison_: Not sure who to write to, yet, but will figure it out.
14:09:48 <addison_> #47
14:09:49 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04
14:09:55 <addison_> #46
14:09:55 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46 -> Action 46  read the string-meta explainer and consider the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28
14:10:12 <Bert> s/Not/On #49, not/
14:10:36 <addison_> #44
14:10:37 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/44 -> Action 44 follow up on the bidi thread of rdf-star (on r12a) due 2023-09-19
14:10:47 <addison_> #43
14:10:47 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43  pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18
14:10:52 <Bert> r12a: If we do not discuss #46 today, send me email.
14:10:56 <addison_> #42
14:10:57 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/42 -> Action 42  work on tc39 proposal (meet with addison and eemeli to start) (on xfq) due 2023-09-18
14:11:06 <addison_> #41
14:11:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/41 -> Action 41 propose new specdev text on strings for xml (on aphillips) due 2023-09-07
14:11:25 <addison_> #39
14:11:26 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39 -> Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31
14:11:33 <addison_> #35
14:11:34 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30
14:11:44 <addison_> #33
14:11:45 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
14:12:01 <Bert> addison_: #33, worked on that.
14:12:29 <Bert> ... Put some on the agenda.
14:12:39 <addison_> #32
14:12:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/32 -> Action 32 Approve the character markup PR (on fantasai) due 2023-08-17
14:12:42 <Bert> ... Will take another week for the rest.
14:13:03 <Bert> addison_: #32 may be stale.
14:13:11 <Bert> ... Made a new PR.
14:13:20 <addison_> agenda+ tr-design pr
14:13:21 <Bert> r12a: I did look at at it.
14:13:26 <addison_> #18
14:13:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)
14:13:34 <addison_> #16
14:13:34 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips)
14:13:39 <addison_> #12
14:13:40 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips)
14:13:48 <addison_> #11
14:13:48 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal)
14:13:54 <addison_> #10
14:13:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai)
14:13:58 <addison_> #8
14:13:58 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips)
14:14:03 <addison_> #7
14:14:03 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github)
14:14:14 <addison_> #5
14:14:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a)
14:14:21 <addison_> #4
14:14:22 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a)
14:14:37 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:14:37 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:14:54 <Bert> addison_: I had a call with VC, see agenda item.
14:15:12 <Bert> ... Last week I mentioned some chnages to process. This week was first test of that.
14:15:35 <Bert> ... With WCAG, and plh told me it worked.
14:15:36 <r12a> q+
14:15:43 <addison_> ack r12a
14:15:52 <Bert> s/chnages/changes
14:16:27 <r12a> https://w3c.social/@webi18n/111176326932097219
14:16:36 <Bert> r12a: See ^^
14:16:39 <r12a> All 3 major browser engines now support the ability to create custom counter styles.
14:17:01 <Bert> ... All three major browsers support custom counter styles, in the released version.
14:17:27 <Bert> ... Safari was the last to move it from the experimental to the main browser.
14:17:46 <addison_> 🎉
14:18:31 <Bert> r12a: Took time to rewrite all the gap analysis docs as a consequence, but that was worth it.
14:18:40 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:18:40 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:18:48 <addison_> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:19:45 <addison_> agenda?
14:19:47 <Bert> bert: Did not work on review of C
14:19:55 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:19:55 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:19:58 <Bert> ... JOSE and COSE yet.
14:20:07 <addison_> gb, list open issues from w3c/i18n-activity with label pending
14:20:07 <gb> addison_, sorry, I don't understand what you want me to do. Maybe try "help"?
14:20:45 <addison_> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+pending
14:21:47 <Bert> r12a: That's the shadow DOM stuff, going on since months.
14:22:27 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 6
14:22:27 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Definition of 'string' revisited -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:22:37 <addison_> https://deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_string
14:22:50 <Bert> addison_: I made some edits, see ^^
14:23:17 <Bert> ... "Unicode scalar value" doens't link correctly. I need to debug that.
14:23:37 <r12a> q+
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14:23:57 <Bert> ... Wrote about different types of strings. No change to the recommendations, but the explanations are completely different.
14:24:15 <Bert> ... So I'd like to merge this. Can r12a review it?
14:24:21 <addison_> ack r12a
14:24:41 <Bert> r12a: Much better than before!
14:25:16 <Bert> ... You didn't change the mustard. We had a discussion before about what Web Platform means.
14:25:25 <Bert> ... Not sure we had a better alternative.
14:26:02 <Bert> ... Do you mean, when designing a feature _that uses utf-16_?
14:26:29 <Bert> addison_: No, for general string.
14:26:45 <Bert> ... It tries to explain the mustard.
14:27:09 <Bert> r12a: Doesn't it assume the string is in utf-16?
14:27:28 <Bert> addison_: Kind of, but a JSON file, e.g., would be in UTF-8.
14:27:47 <Bert> ... In UTF-8, there should be no surrogates.
14:27:59 <Bert> ... WebIDL will use DOMString.
14:28:24 <Bert> ... Only use USVString if you need to count characters or similar.
14:28:35 <Bert> ... That is the theory.
14:28:49 <Bert> ... Just don't specify utf-8 and then work with bytes,
14:29:17 <Bert> r12a: Do we say why we choose DOMString?
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14:29:35 <Bert> addison_: May need to clarify when to use USVString.
14:30:01 <Bert> ... I will stab at it again.
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14:30:39 <Bert> r12a: There may be something about DOMString assuming utf-16.
14:31:05 <Bert> addison_: Infra spec defines string as utf-16.
14:32:05 <Bert> r12a: If you use utf-16 code units, you should use DOMString, otherwise you use USVString. But now it gets confused.
14:32:28 <Bert> addison_: JavaScript strings are utf-16.
14:33:05 <Bert> r12a: Maybe we should say use DOMString when required by the API, otherwise use USVString.
14:33:24 <Bert> ... But may conflict with the TAG.
14:33:53 <Bert> addison_: Maybe we should say why we are in this knot.
14:34:29 <Bert> atsushi_: Prefer the original description.
14:34:45 <Bert> addison_: The difference is the surrogate handling.
14:35:05 <Bert> ... RDF guys use XML strings, not DOMStrings.
14:35:14 <Bert> atsushi_: From implementation POV,
14:36:00 <Bert> ... it is just the interface.
14:36:10 <Bert> addison_: Depends on what language you write it in.
14:36:37 <addison_> action: addison to raise TAG request about reviewing string definitions
14:36:45 <Bert> r12a: XML would use utf-8 as well. It is the internal encoding of the DOM that uses utf-16 strings.
14:36:46 <gb> Created -> action #50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/50
14:37:15 <Bert> r12a: Is surrogates the only difference between DOMString and USVString?
14:37:29 <Bert> addison_: Counting characters and indexing is also different.
14:37:50 <Bert> ... That's why you want a USVString when looking at the internals of a string.
14:37:50 <addison_> agenda?
14:38:21 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 11
14:38:21 <Zakim> agendum 11 -- tr-design pr -- taken up [from addison_]
14:38:47 <Bert> addison_: r12a and xfq raised an issue on tr design.
14:39:05 <addison_> https://github.com/w3c/tr-design/pull/341
14:39:12 <Bert> ... I made a pull request ^^
14:39:29 <Bert> ... r12a, did you have a concern with it?
14:39:36 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/guidelines/editing
14:39:44 <Bert> r12a: I had a look at it and at our guidelines ^^
14:40:04 <Bert> ... You did it somewhat differently.
14:40:24 <addison_> https://deploy-preview-117--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#char_ref
14:40:39 <Bert> ... We say in our guidelines that you can use an image. Not an issue per se.
14:40:52 <Bert> addison_: It is trying to be the same as in specdev.
14:41:18 <Bert> ... Cannot be exactly the same, because of the context, but the text is the same.
14:41:29 <Bert> r12a: Happy with the specdev thing.
14:41:45 <Bert> addison_: I published specdev and glossary on TR last week.
14:42:04 <Bert> ... The section about character styling is in there.
14:42:18 <addison_> agenda?
14:43:01 <Bert> r12a: I just approved the PR
14:43:01 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:43:01 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- VCWG special call results -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:43:30 <Bert> addison_: We had a special call with Verifiable Credentials.
14:43:56 <Bert> ... We reviewed language & direction metadata.
14:44:04 <Bert> ... They are going to put metadata.
14:44:41 <Bert> ... They are kind of JSON-LD, but they don't require JSON-LD, so they use just a feature from JSON-LD.
14:45:10 <Bert> ... It is a weird, but it satisfies the req to have lang & dir metadata.
14:45:16 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 7
14:45:16 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- String-Meta next steps -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:45:50 <addison_> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/blob/gh-pages/explainers/string-meta-explainer-updated.md#is-there-a-better-approach
14:46:01 <r12a> [ ^^ previous topic url https://www.w3.org/2023/10/03-vcwg-special-minutes.html ]
14:46:24 <Bert> addison_: Last week we discussed a different approach.
14:47:19 <Bert> ... We do need to clean up stringmeta, but it can explain how to serialize a string.
14:47:31 <Bert> r12a: Should we have it in specdev?
14:47:40 <Bert> addison_: That is an option.
14:48:01 <Bert> r12a: Handy to have a spearate little doc to point people to.
14:48:52 <Bert> ... Would you make the little doc a Respec doc?
14:48:58 <Bert> addison_: Yes.
14:49:44 <Bert> r12a: Best to do this doc first, before specdev.
14:50:10 <Bert> addison_: Then we need a repo. With what name?
14:50:19 <Bert> r12a: Will think about it.
14:50:28 <addison_> action: addison to inform fuqiao and richard what to name the string-meta-2 repo
14:50:32 <gb> Created -> action #51 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/51
14:50:42 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 9
14:50:42 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- HTML EAI support in input type=email -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:50:51 <addison_> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4562
14:51:07 <Bert> addison_: Thread has woken up.
14:51:56 <Bert> ... Proposed over 3 years ago an input type "email" that validates addresses with unicode on both sides of the "@".
14:52:45 <Bert> ... There is now a long discussion about EAI addresses, whether they are used, what they can contain.
14:53:25 <Bert> ... HTML is not responsible for encoding the address, just for testing that what you typed is a valid address.
14:54:44 <Bert> atsushi_: From CJK users, IDMA selects domain. Should have validation of them.
14:55:11 <Bert> addison_: So you are saying the rhs is restricted by IDMA and browsers already know how to resolve those.
14:55:47 <Bert> atsushi_: lhs is free. Users can use a combined form, with Kana or @@.
14:56:18 <Bert> s/IDMA/IDNA/g
14:57:18 <Bert> atsushi_: From the RFC 822 and 1521(?), the local part is restricted.
14:57:32 <Bert> ... John?
14:58:34 <atsushi_> s/1521(?)/821/
14:58:52 <Bert> JcK: Non-ASCII on either side is not recommended. RFC strongly recommend not using AA labels.
14:59:59 <Bert> ... On the lhs side there are no rules, no expectation that two encodings give the same results, the interpretation is purely up to the local mail server.
15:00:34 <Bert> ... What big providers are doing. E.g., use of % signs.
15:01:14 <Bert> ... Use of % in URLs clashes with various things.
15:03:34 <Bert> ... % in lhs will not work, it means a change in the standards.
15:04:14 <Bert> .. Trying to interpret the lhs will lead to trouble.
15:05:02 <Bert> addison_: So that means don't normalize it. HTML doesn't actually send email.
15:05:36 <Bert> ... What atsushi sai about the rhs: browser do know something about that.
15:06:21 <Bert> JcK: But requiring validation of the IDNA on the rhs, is not recommended by Unicode people. It is too much trouble.
15:09:00 <Bert> atsushi_: We cannot do much. It is an RFC.
15:09:10 <Bert> addison_: We can write new RFCs...
15:10:10 <Bert> JcK: Some providers claim millions of users using certain addresses.
15:10:55 <Bert> ... Address is Unicode with "@" in the middle.
15:11:15 <Bert> addison_: So only thing we can validate is that it has a "@ in the middle...
15:12:48 <Bert> addison_: I'm not volunteering to write a new RFC.
15:13:12 <addison_> zakim, take up agendum 10
15:13:12 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:22:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-i18n-minutes.html addison_
15:41:18 <addison_> zakim, who is here?
15:41:18 <Zakim> Present: Addison, r12a, JcK
15:41:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see Najib, addison_, JcK, RRSAgent, Zakim, atsushi_, r12a, BoKilgore, imlostlmao, Github, gonzu_15, clafase, MojGraph, fantasai, sangwhan, hadleybeeman, bigbluehat,
15:41:20 <Zakim> ... astearns, Rachael, koji, Mek, cwilso, florian, alastairc, eemeli, csarven, gb, agendabot, plh, Bert, hsivonen
15:41:29 <addison_> present+ Atsushi, Bert
15:41:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-i18n-minutes.html addison_
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