16:59:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:59:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-aria-irc
16:59:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:29 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:59:36 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:38 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:59:43 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:43 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:45 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20231005T130000/
16:59:45 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:59:45 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3tfQQqC
16:59:45 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3F3cOQg
16:59:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT
16:59:57 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Seeking clarity on name property with div https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/202
16:59:57 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider allowing searchbox as a child of listbox / menu https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2051
16:59:59 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider allowing combobox to open menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2050
17:00:02 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider creation of a fieldsize/maxlength property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1119
17:00:05 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Monthly PR Triage https://bit.ly/all-aria-prs - Will reserve at least last 15 mins for this
17:00:20 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:01:20 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:01:51 <Rahim> present+
17:02:03 <StefanS> present+
17:02:07 <Adam_Page> present+
17:02:25 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
17:02:34 <jamesn> regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
17:02:47 <jamesn> regrets+ AndreaCardona
17:02:54 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:02:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3tfQQqC -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:01 <giacomo-petri_> giacomo-petri_ has joined #aria
17:03:03 <giacomo-petri_> present+
17:03:19 <Adam_Page> jamesn: 6 new issues
17:03:42 <Adam_Page> ... #2055
17:04:13 <Adam_Page> ... need to wait until spectranaut is back, will agenda for later
17:04:27 <Adam_Page> ... accname #205
17:05:16 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
17:05:31 <melsumner> present+
17:07:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: there’s a whitespace project in accname, including #83 which is applicable
17:07:13 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:07:25 <Adam_Page> jcraig: maybe the resolution here is to not test this particular case in WPT
17:07:36 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:07:59 <sarah_h> sarah_h has joined #aria
17:08:06 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
17:08:11 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: we agreed to change the spec and browsers already did that work speculatively
17:08:29 <Adam_Page> ... so browsers are actually doing it correctly, but the spec hasn’t been updated yet
17:08:57 <jcraig> Bryan is correct about Chromium: https://wpt.fyi/results/accname/name/comp_name_from_content.html?diff&filter=ADC&run_id=5147990542516224&run_id=5101898094346240 PR preview
17:08:59 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this accname #168 issue sounds like what you’ve described, and it just hasn’t been merged
17:09:22 <Adam_Page> ... so this PR needs to get resolved so we can merge it, then write some tests
17:09:57 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I’ll pull accname #205 back; BryanGaraventa is right about this
17:10:28 <Adam_Page> ... and I’ll file a WebKit bug
17:10:49 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: I’ll go back and look at accname #168
17:10:55 <Adam_Page> melsumner: I’ll help with that
17:11:08 <GautierC> GautierC has joined #aria
17:11:21 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next issue, accname #204
17:12:06 <Adam_Page> jcraig: needs CSS spec update
17:12:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: would anyone like to take this?
17:12:48 <Adam_Page> melsumner: I will
17:13:24 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next issue, accname #203
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17:14:07 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:14:18 <CurtBellew> present+
17:15:00 <Adam_Page> ... anyone want to work on this?
17:15:26 <Adam_Page> ... is it urgent?
17:15:30 <Adam_Page> jcraig: no, it can wait
17:15:40 <Adam_Page> ... will tackle in October
17:15:49 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next issue, html-aam #505
17:16:09 <Adam_Page> scotto: encountered this when defining popover mappings
17:16:24 <jamesn> agenda?
17:16:53 <Adam_Page> ... popovertargetaction has toggle behavior
17:17:36 <Adam_Page> ... should we let users know when a close button will actually do nothing?
17:18:26 <jamesn> q+
17:18:40 <jamesn> ack me
17:18:49 <Adam_Page> jamesn: why does this close button even exist if the popover is already closed?
17:19:06 <Adam_Page> scotto: there could be times when you have both an open and a close button in the UI, as siblings in the primary document
17:19:18 <Adam_Page> jamesn: then one or the other should be disabled
17:19:30 <sarah_h> q+
17:20:16 <jcraig> q+
17:20:33 <jamesn> ack sarah_h
17:20:34 <Adam_Page> MattKing: if you have two buttons, then you shouldn’t be using expanded/collapsed
17:20:54 <jcraig> q+ to say this is identical in functionality in <button>foo</button> not disabled, just not doing anything.
17:20:59 <Adam_Page> sarah_h: I don’t think we should automatically disable them since it’s not intuitive for authors
17:21:34 <Adam_Page> ... a good example is a button that always has show behavior — it would be weird to disable that when the popover is open
17:21:53 <sarah_h> ack me
17:21:57 <jcraig> ack me
17:21:57 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say this is identical in functionality in <button>foo</button> not disabled, just not doing anything.
17:22:01 <Adam_Page> MattKing: since this is just triage, we need to agenda it for next week
17:22:16 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I agree with sarah_h
17:22:26 <Adam_Page> jamesn: me too, now that I understand the example better
17:22:34 <Adam_Page> ... will agenda for next week
17:22:36 <Adam_Page> ... next issue, aria #2052
17:22:55 <Adam_Page> ... scotto, will you own this?
17:22:59 <Adam_Page> scotto: we should agenda this too
17:23:10 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay, will do
17:23:13 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:23:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3F3cOQg -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: html-aam #504
17:23:44 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’d like jcraig’s review on this
17:23:52 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I will
17:24:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next PR, aria #2054
17:24:34 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll add MattKing for review
17:24:46 <Adam_Page> CoryJoseph: I’ll review also
17:25:11 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next PR, aria #2053
17:25:14 <Adam_Page> ... editorial change
17:25:22 <Adam_Page> ... pkra has already reviewed it
17:25:31 <Adam_Page> ... I think that’s enough
17:25:42 <Adam_Page> ... if anyone else would like to review, please feel free, otherwise I’ll merge
17:25:43 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:25:43 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:52 <Adam_Page> jamesn: WPT open PRs
17:26:00 <Adam_Page> ... there are 11 here, jcraig — do any need attention?
17:26:16 <Adam_Page> jcraig: yes, we’re trying to figure out focus areas for Interop 2024 this week
17:26:21 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay
17:26:28 <Adam_Page> ... #42234
17:26:50 <Adam_Page> jcraig; every form element has an embedded control
17:26:59 <Adam_Page> ... it’s a long one, but not difficult to review
17:27:15 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll review this one
17:27:22 <Adam_Page> ... next, #42203
17:27:34 <Adam_Page> jcraig: this is effectively editorial
17:27:39 <Adam_Page> ... quick, easy review
17:27:45 <Adam_Page> ... good first review
17:27:55 <Adam_Page> Rahim: I’ll review
17:28:10 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, #42093
17:28:22 <Adam_Page> jcraig: we can pass, already approved
17:28:29 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, #42013
17:28:34 <Adam_Page> Rahim: I’m still working on this
17:28:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, #42011
17:28:59 <Adam_Page> jcraig: this is a manual test, leave for spectranaut
17:29:11 <Adam_Page> ... ditto for #41522
17:29:36 <Adam_Page> ... we’re good on all the rest
17:29:45 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:29:45 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Seeking clarity on name property with div https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/202 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:00 <Adam_Page> jamesn: accname #202
17:30:03 <Adam_Page> ... can we close this?
17:31:36 <Adam_Page> jcraig: assign it to me and I’ll close it after chewing on it some more
17:31:41 <giacomo-petri_> q+
17:33:13 <scotto> q+
17:33:13 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri_: as an author, I may want to use the title and let the browser use it as a “fallback”
17:33:25 <Adam_Page> MattKing: I think this is a case where accname should say title should *not* be a fallback for accname
17:33:34 <GautierC> GautierC has joined #aria
17:33:35 <Adam_Page> ... so authors can use it to be a mouse tooltip, but it wouldn’t be the accname
17:34:05 <Adam_Page> MattKing: we probably should also prohibit aria-describedby on a generic
17:34:16 <Adam_Page> jcraig: let’s file an issue on accname
17:34:22 <Adam_Page> ... giacomo-petri_, would you?
17:34:34 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri_: yes, I’ll file an issue
17:34:46 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: should we have a deep dive?
17:35:09 <melsumner> I almost feel like we could just clarify as an editorial thing. WDYT?
17:35:29 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s discuss this after the issue is created
17:35:36 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:35:36 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Adam_Page
17:35:58 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:36:02 <Adam_Page> scotto: I also think there’s an html-aam issue here, I’ll file one
17:36:06 <jamesn> ack giacomo-petri_
17:36:08 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:36:08 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Consider allowing searchbox as a child of listbox / menu https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2051 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:36:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: scotto?
17:37:02 <Adam_Page> scotto: we have common patterns where a button will invoke a popup, and that popup is a listbox but there’s a textbox at the top
17:37:34 <Adam_Page> ... typeahead to filter the list of options
17:37:46 <Adam_Page> ... per current allowance, I’d normally recommend that popup be a dialog
17:37:51 <Adam_Page> ... and then associate the text input with the listbox
17:38:14 <Adam_Page> ... we’re coming up with a new select element over in open UI, this being one of the use cases
17:38:26 <Adam_Page> ... it would require the browser to juggle the DOM
17:39:04 <Adam_Page> ... so I’ve wondered can we just allow the searchbox as a first child of listbox?
17:39:17 <Adam_Page> MattKing: I don’t get it — isn’t this just a combobox?
17:39:28 <Adam_Page> scotto: it’s not as simple as that
17:39:43 <Adam_Page> ... I’m talking about the *button* that opens the popup, where the text field is inside the popup
17:40:00 <sarah_h> q+
17:40:06 <Rahim> q+
17:40:08 <Adam_Page> MattKing: I’m talking about just the select
17:40:14 <Adam_Page> ... I agree that the popup should be a dialog
17:40:15 <jamesn> agenda?
17:40:45 <Adam_Page> ... I’m just saying that the contents of the dialog; the combination of the textbox with listbox, *that* is just a combobox
17:41:30 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:41:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:41:48 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, we could treat the original element as a plain button, but then if that dialog is being dynamically injected, how do we express the button?
17:41:57 <jamesn> ack sarah_h
17:42:02 <sarah_h> ack me
17:42:04 <jamesn> ack Rahim
17:42:29 <Adam_Page> Rahim: in terms of structure of this widget, does it make sense for the search to be outside the listbox?
17:42:34 <Adam_Page> ... as a sibling?
17:42:42 <Adam_Page> scotto: per current rules, yes, it would be a sibling
17:42:45 <melsumner> FWIW, JS engineers in my world get this wrong ALL THE TIME
17:42:53 <Adam_Page> ... just trying to open the question of whether that’s necessary
17:43:21 <Adam_Page> ... in my own experiments, it seemed that enclosing the text box in the listbox wasn’t a huge problem
17:43:33 <Adam_Page> ... what do we gain by prohibiting it?
17:43:34 <jamesn> q?
17:44:02 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: I’m familiar with this kind of control in Firefox
17:44:13 <Adam_Page> ... the issue I had was with virtual cursor context
17:44:46 <Adam_Page> ... you can’t see that there *is* an input
17:44:56 <Adam_Page> ... when I went looking for it, I had to turn off the virtual cursor and had to tab through instead
17:44:58 <Adam_Page> ... irritating
17:45:12 <Adam_Page> ... because a listbox is intended to be a one-line widget
17:45:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: how do we move this forward?
17:45:33 <Adam_Page> ... create some examples and see what actual problems we encounter if we were to pursue this?
17:45:39 <Adam_Page> sarah_h: I have an example of it in a menu
17:46:14 <Adam_Page> MattKing: fundamentally, it seems like an a11y tree issue
17:46:41 <Adam_Page> ... text boxes and list boxes should stay separate
17:46:55 <Adam_Page> jamesn: path forward to prototype some cases?
17:47:01 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: I can certainly test
17:47:05 <jamesn> zakim, close this item
17:47:05 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:47:06 <Adam_Page> sarah_h: I’ll make some examples
17:47:07 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:47:07 <Zakim> 6. -> Consider allowing combobox to open menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2050 [from agendabot]
17:47:15 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 8
17:47:17 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Monthly PR Triage https://bit.ly/all-aria-prs - Will reserve at least last 15 mins for this -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:47:40 <Adam_Page> jamesn: need to get through some old PRs across all repos
17:47:50 <Adam_Page> ... oldest first, from 2019
17:47:56 <Adam_Page> ... accname #60
17:48:00 <Adam_Page> ... this can be closed, right?
17:48:04 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: yes
17:48:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, accname #66
17:49:06 <Adam_Page> jcraig: there will be conflicts
17:49:11 <Adam_Page> jamesn: yes
17:50:09 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I think we should just use a standard HTML example
17:50:38 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll take assignment of this PR
17:50:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: who wants to review?
17:50:46 <Adam_Page> BryanGaraventa: me
17:51:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, accname #90
17:51:41 <Adam_Page> ... why hasn’t this been merged?
17:52:19 <Adam_Page> ... looks like this can be merged by editors
17:53:00 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I’m suspicious of one change; I’ll add a comment
17:53:12 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, aria #1413
17:53:21 <Adam_Page> ... I’m just going to close this, there was never agreement
17:53:27 <Adam_Page> ... and will leave the underlying issue open
17:53:47 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, aria #1494
17:54:07 <Adam_Page> ... I thought this was done?
17:54:17 <Adam_Page> ... very simple change
17:54:23 <Adam_Page> ... something to drive validators on
17:54:58 <Adam_Page> scotto: definitely remember talking about this, maybe we just never brought it back up for re-review
17:55:47 <Adam_Page> jamesn: did we handle this with an authors MUST NOT statement in section 9. Handling Author Errors?
17:56:00 <Adam_Page> ... volunteers for review?
17:56:15 <Adam_Page> JaunitaGeorge: I’ll review
17:56:27 <Adam_Page> melsumner: I’ll also review
17:56:58 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, html-aam #359
17:57:22 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ve been requesting UIA help on this
17:57:51 <Adam_Page> ... mappings for UIA don’t make sense
17:58:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: will re-ping
17:58:15 <Adam_Page> jamesn: graphics-aria #9
17:58:27 <Adam_Page> ... just needs to be merged — right, dmontalvo?
17:58:34 <Adam_Page> dmontalvo: yep, we can merge
17:58:44 <Adam_Page> jamesn: done, merged
17:58:53 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, html-aam #395
17:59:04 <Adam_Page> scotto: this one goes along with a PR I just merged
17:59:09 <Adam_Page> ... I need to check on this
17:59:11 <Adam_Page> ... we have reviewers
17:59:16 <Adam_Page> ... just need some double-checking
17:59:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: next, html-aam #396
17:59:38 <Adam_Page> scotto: yep, I’ll take this
18:00:06 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:00:06 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rahim, StefanS, Adam_Page, giacomo-petri_, melsumner, Francis_Storr, Daniel, CurtBellew
18:00:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/05-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:16 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:00:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
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