Collaboration between W3C and Ecma International

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Table of contents

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Triana: Here we go alright. So I international, I am the Secretary General. We are a nonprofit standards organization based in Geneva.
… Daniel Eric is our Vice President on our board and represents Bloomberg and talking about some of his experiences with 3
… yeah. I first got involved with Aka Javascript
… of. So we worked on
… the Javascript specification 2, 62. This is what we spend most of our time on. We also have an internationalization library called access by the internal property of the global Javascript
… It's a security task group, which is
… recently not only Javascript. They're also Css.
… this thing that's been internally
… implemented in many different contexts without a specification, we have a new task group.
… So
… we develop this, the the Javascript specification where there's sort of a custom set of tools that we have. We're not using using Exmarka. And this is the the language staff
… that
… the new addition, ecoscript 2023, is kind of about generally being taken iters graph
… what what usually makes sense to reference, as well as the annual versions which are go through a formal standards process. So this is the most recent one from June. So already available.
… So the
… 300 remote person.
… There's
… these days. It's kind of between 20 and 30 people who attend in person
… the last 3 or 4 days. You review proposals and consider advancing things through A
… the Tc. 39 escapes.
… First, we have. That's an idea of a proposal that we put on the table. So this is kind of like incubation, for
… we do integration kind of in the community.
… Someone present an idea. And then, even though the idea is, yeah, we're all gonna discuss it together.
… It's on the table. We have a first back with the with the coherent specification as well as subscribe motivation.
… That that committee thinks, yeah, this is something that we should. We should actually kind of.
… It's H. 3. There's a very complete draft.
… And you say it's
… has worked out as we as we can figure out how to do. And it's time to
… to implement this and consider shipping it.
… And it's H 4. There are multiple shipping implementations, and it could be merged into the editor's draft, which then annually is cut and released, similar to the
… process. For the what we need specification for HTML is like every 6 months
… released 5 of these 3 ski hits of it. The version of things
… to be stage 4, you need multiple implementations. And usually yes, for multiple browser implementations. They also have to be
… so this is kind of like our portion with platform tests. We also break with platform tests for proposals because of their concerns with how Javascript, any Tml
… or the web platform features interact.
… We have a pretty good flow with these go back. You know, they're run by javascript engines just like web platform tests use by browsers.
… I
… we got a staging director recently. So it's easier to commit kind of informal or partial tests. And looking forward, we're hoping to adopt a 2 way sync mechanism like web platform tests.
… Oh, that's kind of a project here.
… So yeah.
… yes.
… we've been working on a bunch of interesting projects that that are kind of poor. For the web platform in Tcp.
… One is the graph and finalization registry. For a long time it was a very core principle, but it shouldn't be possible to observe garbage collection.
… You know, there are couple when you guys that do. But it's kind of bad. Now.
… that's still the design principle. But there is an explicit Api or the developers use if they want to look at their garbage collection.
… And this was. This was considered important for Javascript interaction to free underlying resources. We also have, we have Javascript models standardized in Tcp. And I,
… and one interesting feature of modules which is now in the standard. It's top level weight where a Javascript module can load an asynchronous resource as part of its
… until that away has completed.
… Nice nature programmers is question mark, dot or question mark question mark, which we call optional chaining or the logical lesson
… that's about
… thinking ordinary video programming patterns, just lot nicer and easier to type private field proper encapsulation for Javascript. Finally.
… and at a previous breakout session, we were talking about
… message resource things about having internationalization you built into the Dom. Well, we've been adding many internationalization features to to the browser Apis, which maybe in the future could be coupled by Dom.
… So okay.
… Yup.
… the previous library things that are already standard. These things that are stage 3 are are almost set. It's almost like it's only 3. Candidate recommendation is theory. But
… maybe in practice, scheduled recommendations are are further along. Not sure, anyway, resizable rate buffers are a
… you have to kind of you sort of threw it away and get a new one. So you have any type to raise on top of it, and they pick up validated.
… And now they're growth. One place, temporal, unused, that are library for dates, and Javascript is at Stage 3, and it's well in progress. Multiple browsers
… it's been in. Take 3 for a while, but it recently reached the milestone where we don't anticipate more changes.
… So one of these that has particularly deep web platform integration potential is resource display.
… This is the thing where you there's a using statement. Now in Javascript at Stage 3,
… where it's it's sort of like Cri Iii or the python, with statement where you say I'm using this thing, and then, at the end of the scope, it gets disposed. This concept of disposal might make sense for
… for web-based assets as well.
… Decorators
… non Javascript modules like Json, also edit and also standard library features like iterator outfits. So if you have an iterator, you can app over it like by
… you know, we're we're well long. We've been catching up to 515 years ago with the condition of iterator efforts.
… Next slide
… at Stage 2. We have Asian context. Asian context is a
… is a somewhat detailed proposal for
… adding variables to javascript that are saved and restored across asynchronous operations.
… There's a session about this in a future breakout session later today. That unpreable run and I encourage you all to attend that
… Another interesting proposal that set stage 2. So these are things that as a committee, you think we want to do if we can figure out an effective way to do it.
… But there's still more details to work out. So, referring module evaluation, they can see you could import a Javascript module, but it's not immediately run when you import, and it's only run when it's used is one of these proposals at Stage 2.
… It's like.
… And then we have very early ideas, like authentications, sort of static types written inside of syntax
… book so that developers can change. Talks are loaded
… pattern matching decimal
… a bass stand data type. And Javascript can have
… quantities that are human readable that we don't round to and
… binary fluid
… which could help avoid both, and message format a new
… but still earlier stage proposal about how we can make it so that you have string templates that are filled in linguistically sets input these will. These proposals are early, even though maybe some of them have been in development for years, they still will will take a lot more time to nail down if we
… if you
… yeah.
… So the source I'm really excited about this one.
… So you can see the the current source map specification off to the right. It's a Google Doc. You can request edit access. I think it's just Googlers go ahead and access right now.
… Because the when source was started. The idea was, we're not gonna do a standard process because this is just to make the Dev tools stuff like that doesn't need a standard.
… And I think we've reached the logical conclusion of that. And it's it's just a mess, because the the document that they have really wasn't specific enough to interpret a lot of age cases.
… Hi, Ferd.
… multiple anecdotes of people getting totally burned out of developing web development tools because of source maps and the different types of bugs. And it's not because there's source, not producers involved with zoomers.
… So it's not just the browser is consuming source maps. Let's see if a pipeline build tools that produce them
… errors in any in any part of that.
… Or just interpretation means that,
… you know, the fix isn't necessarily local. So we're trying to make this specification more concrete and more kind of correct with a test suite. So hopefully, we can reach the point where we can file bugs against actual
… implementation to tell them, yeah, you're you're doing it wrong. Here's the specification
… they get together every couple of weeks to to work on this. But and just we're also looking at new features like chrome. Has this feature followed? Ignored list
… distorted.
… I thought, certain functions with respect to some aspects of devtools.
… There's also very, only because first maps can only map function names, not variable names. So this this has been a really interesting standard. It's newly just from a few months ago John Cooperman. Here it's it's co-tering it with me.
… And then,
… we've been able to engage a bunch of parties who are involved in their development tools for the web. But we're not participants in either X amount or so. This leads to, you know.
… or
… more collaboration or more membership in organizations. Yeah, I think so, even though only for Javascript, we found that they were in school, because there's a lot of overlap in particular, what we start looking at variable, namely, going to be, you know.
… doing some sort of
… you know, mixing of the the layers
… where some Javascript certificate logic will have to be there.
… And I was just going to say that forming this new Tg. Was very easy, and as this subject is related to Javascript, that is much more, it can very easily become its own technical committee
… and go further.
… Yeah.
… thank you. Thank you. I hope that you all found that interesting for those who are not directly involved with the or working for Edmo. I'm just gonna do a short presentation on Ekma, what we are, our structure and our processes. And then we need to a more of an open conversation.
… So who is international if he didn't already know Ecmo through Ecma script or or Javascript. I hope this presentation and conversation with Daniel and myself will help you have a better picture.
… We are a not for profit. Organized standard organization based in Geneva.
… We have been around for 62 years. Developed many international standards. We have the proven track with over 500 publications.
… Our Secretariat. So our staff. We are based in Geneva for a small group.
… And I think one of the things that we do offer that it's very interesting and exciting, for the community is our patent policy, and this also includes, of course, the world Tp interest.
… So you know, what is Benet working on? I just said, we're 62 years old. There's a broad scope of the work that Ethn has been doing from its
… the findings in the beginning, from his founding in the beginning on hardware computer hardware. There are software standards of communication.
… I just wanted to highlight a little bit more specifically that we also strong a programming language. And I've listed their, we've just spoken about, and some of the broken in in
… PC. 49 is where Sis suite is our C sharp.
… we just thought approved in a Jtc. One isol suite, which is excellent, and of course we have done it.
… But I can jump in here. Sometimes people ask, so what is Echo responsible for? And how does this differ from what and what we're responsible for? And ultimately.
… ultimately, it's kind of the decision of participants which standards they want to be in, you know. People come up with different kinds of logic like, oh, this thing logically on. This has some programming languages, others are standardized, and Iso or Webassembly, or Css.
… And we haven't found to be a barrier to work across those different institutional boundaries both with
… C plus plus which references the Javascript standard, as well as with obviously standard referencing Javascript as well
… already mentioned. I mean, we are a members based organization. So our members are also overlapping in many of these different associations. So Google Microsoft, just to name with you, we have about 8 plus 80 plus members of which 25% of them are universities. So it's quite a dynamic group.
… So I'll just look at the structure in the process. In the next couple of slides. I forget the next slide. It looks like a busy slide, but it's one picture, as we say.
… just to let you know. I just give you an image of what we are. It's a very black organization. They're not many different layers. You've got technical committees that are really the brains behind
… the work that they're the efforts for working on those committees, as we mentioned their Tds that can form their task groups, specific subjects or new subjects that need to be added as the source map, which is well within that, so they govern the work that they they take into the next stages. As Daniel's also mentioned, the Secretary is there to support
… the General Assembly, the management, and the technical Committee to give the tools they need to support them in the processes of some administrative and administration that typically needs to take place when you want to bring standards into an international organization or into an international flavor.
… Our management is our what we call our executive committee, which then, of course, is looking at all the standards they're recommending it.
… They're guiding the technical committees where needed, and that works very interactively, and some of the technical committee members are also members of the the
… of the Management Committee.
… The General Assembly is like 4, maybe the final voting on the standards. Currently, we do it twice a year. It can. We're very flexible. That makes sense. But that's the case we have right now.
… So you know, you have a work item, the the Tc is work on it. They come to the final draft. It comes to the Executive committee. You move it on for voting through general committee, and then you have a standard so very smooth and straightforward process.
… We have different tools that could be use that can be helpful. We offer support through the Secretariat, and of course I already mentioned our policies that are royalty free. We are associated with a number of different organizations that listed them there on the slide. Our most attractive one would use the Jtc. One Iso is where we can take a standard into an international flavor. Relationships under the consortium
… process. That was a structure like you think it's quite flat or easy through to bring a standard out. So like I said, you work on an item you bring in a proposal. You need 3 members to be interested in it.
… Technical Committee. You draft it, you do your iterations. He will be forward. come to a final adoption in consensus with your community, with your technical committee.
… It goes to a vote.
… and then it moves on to becoming a international review. We think such such reviews important. But the technically this is mostly implemented by the Tc. So the Tc. Better. 9. For example, when we have proposals before, not before making the the
… you know the annual cut, because that's a little too late before advancing. Stage 3. We get buy in from often when there's significant intersection
… from the what way HTML reviewers and or the tag.
… When there's significant integration technical integration issues or sort of structural issues, we we frequently file issues in both of those repositories to get this sort of broad review
… and
… ultimately a a lot of the determination of who is relevant for views is deferred to the Tc. Rather than having a sort of one size fits all approach. So I think for for Tc to 9 this flexibility works well. The gang doesn't end up doing a detailed technical review of proposals, I mean members of the Ta
… as within the organization which but
… the review is really more done inside the Pcs and then for Dcc, one that's about becoming an Iso standard and that has quite a smooth process for that. Members of the Pcs typically don't have to worry very much about that, because the actual administration handles those those sorts of you know, Iso technical process.
… So just just to kind of reiterate some of things that we've talked about, and some of the reports that Daniel just mentioned
… really believe that each instructors, quite likely I showed you. Our structure is very is flat. How we work together with a technical committee. But what the technical committees did
… also comes as like in likely. So I think it's a very smooth process. So have strong experts involved solving problems working together in the different
… meeting processor in the different discussions. So it is,
… always considered a good standard goes towards high chance of being accepted and being published in an international scope.
… if we do have some processes. Of course we need to have some processes to make them happen, but I think they're very flexible, and we're going to listen to see what Pcs need and what Newport needs.
… Our fast track was mentioned with the Iso. Jtc. One is to really take a standard once completed from Edna and bring it into that international body. Fast practice. And it happens in days. But it happens smoothly may take a few months because it still has to go through iso processes
… flexibly to adapt like, I say, we want to hear what the Tc's need. We always listen to that. So we can make sure we're meeting their needs. And of course we have our IP policy. I think that works very well with the organization and the open source approach.
… Yeah. And about the structure. I wanted to add that this flexibility has included over the past 5 or 10 years, making several different processing is the equipment level to suit the needs of the technical committees. This included different sorts of this sort of
… annual version standard device. The Iso level included the adoption of the world's free patent policy, as well as the liberal copyright license which is subsequently been adopted elsewhere. Various parts of the use
… policy changes to enable stronger code of conduct. There was already a conduct policy, but we strengthened it. Because it's a small organization. It's pretty likely to make such changes. Just get everyone together and talk it out. And we can make a change with a majority both at the Ga, so I think
… so why should we work together? I'm gonna say he wants to conclude. And then so as I mentioned about our our structure. We like to think it's modern and it's effective. We talk public about our policy, the copyright of the royalty free and also very important. One member contribution. So we have a very
… friendly, invite, expert policy. We encourage it. We have a number of invite experts that come to in fact, not only with some of our other Tc, so sometimes our time limited, they're always at my discretion. We work very well together, and this always.
… It is a, it's rigid process. So this is good. We take feedback. Very well with that.
… our standards are available freely. You can download it from our website.
… That's
… that's right. It was established at 62
… If you've been established in 62, it should be very well to say how trusted we are, and and the reputation of getting it is a 60 plus your whole organization. We have. We are Sdos, and we have had over the years with the previous secretary. Very strong relationship organization.
… Again. I think our infrastructure is quite efficient in what we do. And we would always be there to support to establish standards.
… So the collaboration with the other SEO, I think that's also important to mention. You know, time goes on. Demands of the market change demands of regulations change, governments change. We have a very established relationship with many of these standards organizations who are well trusting itma and believe the work that we do so Iso, i, ec, jtc, one. Where we have a very unique relationship as category a. The only ones that have it.
… It enables everyone to work on these international standards, which is very important. It gives a lot of disability to do the work that's being done. And and it's a very relevant some of the work that we're coming out with, with. Of course, the open source community. So I think it's important to recognize that.
… We can offer a platform.
… It's easy to
… forget, as browser developers, that this is internationally recognized. Standards are important for some users, but we're seeing a lot more regulation in the computer space these days. And it's important for that regulation to have certain things to reference. I think it's kind of in our shared interest that that regulars make make good decisions with respect to these things
… becoming an internationally recognized standard, making sure that our strong technical work as is done in the is is recognized as international standards from. So it's good that we have efficient processes that various different groups of technical professionals can do that without
… of
… overhead or some. That's another.
… Yeah, and ensure that your focus.
… So we spoke about is the new work and and the example we took earlier in Danville's presentation slides, which is the T. Snap
… very quick to create. There was an idea. There were members that were interested.
… Within a couple of weeks. We just began it. We set it up together we have a chair and already meeting, and I think we had this first discussion in July and then September, and I think they were with it, maybe 2 to 3 times, and their number invited experts on that. So they're non members that are coming in and working in the process.
… So I think it. That is very efficient, and that is directly exposed to it. So if you have any comments
… to that.
… a.
… thank you. Alright.
… yeah. So these things were working
… technically overlapping areas. And I think historically, we've seen that it can be a little bit just like which programming language, which aspects, what platform is it which settings that you is kind of
… historical or based on the preferences of individuals involved. So it's really it's because these things overlap so much in a way that doesn't follow any
… any single layer. It's really important to work closely together, technically, to to make sure that all these things line up.
… You know, for example, promises, we're we're key element to many when the Apis for multiple
… and in general, that was plays a huge role in developer economics. And at Tc 39, we like to talk about how
… the things that we, the the language that we're building is used outside of the web. And I think the reason to be very proud of the web. But standards are also used outside the web as well. We have Major Cg popularizing
… various server environments. So I think,
… I think we're we're working on these very closely related goals. Closely related values
… Tc, 39 and the W. Threec. Have in common that we.
… our kind of thing is the quality of all these different stakeholders. This is core ideological goal. It's not just not just 3 parties that have both and
… yeah, so I think we're, we're natural kind of partners.
… So how? How should we collaborate? I would really like to encourage more
… contributions on both sides from one into the other. So for for Tc. 39, everyone is encouraged to come to Github and comment on proposals. If anybody in the agency wants to come and attend a meeting we'd be happy to. We'd be happy to have you.
… I don't know
… some Tc, they're not proposals. Go through tag review and be interesting to get feedback for for that And which other kind of queue would
… you like to suggest that we take? Are there any Javascript pain points that participants have noted that we should be discussing here.
… I don't know
… contribution for feedback on things, and sometimes with
… W. 3 C, or what? Like people asking, PC, they're on for feedback. It's often
… Sometimes it ends up being a little bit like
… Just use this tool to show that the language doesn't have anything to say about something. I think, oftentimes the language does have ways to contribute. We've seen this with
… Import attributes of recent feature is added support non javascript modules based on specific web platform feedback about how something something is needed.
… And I think we can. I think we can deliver on things like that in the future as well.
… it's just a
… just a question of making sure that everyone's aware that things are valuable on both sides to divide. It's not like we have to solve it in our camp because our problem
… maybe maybe with that I would request that we stop the recording presentation and open it up to questions.