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18:58:04 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
18:58:39 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has changed the topic to: 
18:58:43 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has changed the topic to: CG meeting for 2023-09-21
18:59:19 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
19:00:07 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
19:00:34 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
19:00:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:00:36 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:00:51 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
19:01:10 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:01:13 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:02:11 <murray_moss> murray_moss has joined #aria-at
19:02:38 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
19:02:46 <howard-e> present+
19:04:36 <murray_moss> present+
19:04:44 <jugglinmike> Topic: Test plan schedule for APG examples
19:05:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll postpone this until next week when Lola can join us
19:05:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: (Next week's meeting is a Wednesday meeting)
19:06:23 <Sam_Shaw> Sam_Shaw has joined #aria-at
19:07:35 <jugglinmike> [scribe error: we WILL discuss this topic today]
19:07:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're soon going to be rewriting some test plans, so we want to be able to plan for that
19:08:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think there are a couple of clear winners in terms of where we ought to focus
19:08:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've put together a spreadsheet with analytics from APG: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q9PI7wXjfBvnsl2-_56-HEYpGB36JJxjKPOytldeyYI?usp=drive_fs
19:10:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you sort by visits, the ComboBox appears to be the most sought-after (36,000 visits)
19:10:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But when we're batching work up, we have to be careful not to choose simply giant plans
19:11:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have to make our way through this entire list, eventually, so we should include shorter plans (or those that are less likely to raise contentious issues) along the way
19:11:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Along those lines, I'm thinking of "Accordion"
19:12:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the top three are Combobox, Accordion and Tabs
19:12:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Accordion is similar to Disclosure
19:13:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anyone have any insight into my intuition that Accordion would be fairly straightforward and we should move on to that one?
19:13:23 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
19:13:38 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: We've already written a plan, so it's also good from that perspective
19:14:52 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:15:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Accordion has 23 tests
19:15:27 <jugglinmike> s/23 tests/30 tests/
19:15:29 <jugglinmike> present+ Michael_Fairchild
19:15:48 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: I agree that Accordion is a good choice
19:17:17 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: looking at the Candidate Review page in ARIA-AT App, the action menu button is in the "candidate" phase
19:17:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Vispero has already started working on that
19:19:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Because we already have the one "Disclosure" example, and because it's somewhat similar to Accordion, what do we think about choosing one of the Combobox examples for priority number 11?
19:19:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "Select only" is simpler than any of the ones with autocomplete
19:20:18 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: but we already have test plans for the examples with autocomplete
19:20:48 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Autocomplete "both" is huge--it has 60 tests or more
19:21:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The one thing about "Select only combobox" is that you can often used a plain HTML select element in its place
19:22:36 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: If I were to choose one that I see often and that I consult on often, I would choose "editable with list autocomplete"
19:23:26 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: I think they're all pretty popular. I think "select only combobox" is popular because unlike the native "select" element, it allows authors to style options
19:24:10 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: But it doesn't work well in Safari
19:24:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What about the "selfish screen reader" point-of-view? Which of these do we struggle with the most?
19:26:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What happens to me a lot is that I press the "down arrow" key and get nothing. However, I almost never know if that's due to a bug in VoiceOver
19:26:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Even if the one in APG works correctly, sometimes small differences in the implementation affects the screen reader (even when it doesn't appear that those differences ought to matter)
19:27:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In my day-to-day life, I encounter more problems with editable ones than "select-only" ones. But it's a hard call to make that way
19:27:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I may be biased because I use the Mac at work, and I hardly use it out on the wider web
19:28:02 <jugglinmike> Michael_Fairchild: This may be a bit of a tangent because TalkBack is not in scope for what we're doing right now, but ListBoxes are broken in TalkBack pretty much across the board
19:28:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Figuring out how to do a test for a mobile screen reader, now that we have the new V2 format, is just a test execution concern (V2 addressed the test writing concerns we had)
19:29:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we still have to figure out how we're going to collect that data, but I'm hoping we'll have a little time before the end of the year for Bocoup to start digging in to that
19:30:09 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: we know people would like to style the select-only combobox. Meanwhile, I can't recommend that any client uses that pattern because it doesn't work in Safari.
19:30:29 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: But I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to implement it in the wild
19:30:44 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: But I personally see editable comboboxes everywhere
19:31:22 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: We can choose the example that's all over the web, or we can choose the one that developers would like to use (even though it doesn't work in Safari)
19:31:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I want to lean toward the "select only" example first because all of the issues with writing the test which would pertain to the dropdown are covered
19:32:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But it doesn't have any of the complications of test-writing that concern interacting with the input
19:32:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So let's get the dropdown part down, first, and then the lessons we learn from doing "Select only" should be applicable to doing "autocomplete both"
19:34:13 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi
19:34:41 <jugglinmike> Hadi: in a single-select, when I go to a select box, do I need to differentiate that it is a single-select or that it is a multi-select?
19:35:22 <jugglinmike> Hadi: the behavior of the two is very similar. For example, in single-select, you arrow up and down and hit enter to close the box. But in a multiselect, selection is followed by a finalization step
19:35:58 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I agree, and I think that the most appropriate pattern to use when you have a multiselect that is filterable--that can be a tricky question to answer
19:36:24 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: ...but APG does not have a multiselect example to test
19:36:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Though we do have a multiselect list box
19:37:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's also that pattern that some people refer to a "pill list"
19:37:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I just marked "Select only combobox" as number 11 in the sequence
19:37:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Action button is 9, disclosure is 10
19:38:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We might round out this year by marking Accordion as number 12
19:38:34 <jugglinmike> s/Action button/Action menu button/
19:39:13 <jugglinmike> Hadi: That sounds fine to me
19:40:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have 1 through 12 marked here. I think that gives us enough direction for the time being
19:40:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could discuss what would be 13 and 14. I think we have enough data to discuss that, now
19:40:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But I think we should get through the "select only" combobox draft review before we think about how to prioritize "Select only combobox both"
19:41:29 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Are we going to refactor the first eight?
19:41:53 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The test builder isn't ready yet, so we have to refactor and then wait for that
19:42:10 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: by the time we get there, we may have refactored a bunch of them
19:42:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When we run the new test preview code, we don't know if we'll discover any new challenges there. It's kind of a wildcard
19:43:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we were going to take on another pattern that's a little different and also very popular, Tabs seems like a good candidate
19:43:09 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: we do have a test plan for Tabs
19:43:43 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: At the beginning of this year, we had two test plans, and the examples changed, so I rewrote both test plans
19:44:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are two "tab" examples: "automatic activation" and "manual activation". Which should it be?
19:44:05 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Goodness me!
19:44:10 <jugglinmike> present+ Justin
19:44:21 <jugglinmike> Justin: I think automatic activation is more common
19:44:48 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: automatic activation is the default (and likely) only paradigm available in Windows
19:45:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: On macOS, it's the opposite!
19:46:40 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: we always try to have automatic be the default. We generally only advise manual tabs if loading the content requires non-trivial resources
19:47:16 <jugglinmike> Justin: in our component library, we have a manual activation pattern. I don't know how often it's used, though. I haven't seen it in the wild
19:47:32 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: the new Slack interface has manual tab activation
19:48:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think I see both in everyday life.
19:48:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: As a screen reader user, I haven't noticed that there are any more problems with one or the other
19:49:22 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Inevitably, when we take on manual tabs, we're going to have a conversation about whether the "not selected" state is conveyed. For that reason, I'd like to put off manual tabs
19:49:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, we'll plan on prioritizing automatic tabs. We'll kick the issue James_Scholes just discribed down the road
19:50:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm pretty excited that we have some new stuff with comboboxes and tabs coming up. I think that will be very valuable to the APG
19:50:39 <jugglinmike> Topic: Next app deployment
19:51:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have been doing testing, and I see howard-e has made a draft pull request for the deprecation date
19:51:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I haven't been super-methodical, though. I haven't tested every aspect of every GitHub issue. I've tried to focus on the things that I thought were the biggest changes or the most critical workflows
19:51:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Has IsaDC or James_Scholes had any more time to look at the staging server? Do you have any concerns?
19:52:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think because we are not actively testing right now, the risk of deployment is on the lower side
19:52:26 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: When are you planning on doing the deployment?
19:52:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'd like to get it out there when we're aligned. I want to make sure that the data which is getting surfaced is correct. That's the most important thing to me
19:52:54 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
19:53:04 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I can land the "deprecation date" fix shortly after this meeting
19:53:26 <jugglinmike> howard-e: On the MVP board, that's the only other active "must have" item that's still pending
19:53:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you add that to staging, and I were to test and approve it later today, would it be possible to do a deployment tomorrow?
19:54:02 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I prefer Monday
19:54:26 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Monday works for us, too. That gives us some time tomorrow to put it through its paces
19:55:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I also see that there was a fix for the wording about the phase names in the "plan version" table.
19:55:29 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I've reviewed that. There was an item that I left some feedback on. Once that's addressed, I can include it in the next deployment
19:55:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's plan on a deployment for Monday, then, assuming that the reviews go well
19:56:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I still have not done a final pass on the documentation in issue 977
19:56:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: All the V2 documentation which is based on that is accurate and complete, though
19:57:00 <jugglinmike> howard-e: and I'm the one working on the builder for V2
19:57:51 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I'll be submitting a pull request against your work later today--just some typos and whitespace fixes
19:58:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great!
19:58:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we're in a great place. Some good, exciting decisions today. We'll be talking about AT Driver on Monday, and this group will meet again on Wednesday
19:59:04 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:59:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, murray_moss, James_Scholes, IsaDC, Michael_Fairchild, Hadi, Justin
19:59:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:59:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/21-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
19:59:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:59:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
19:59:18 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
19:59:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items