IRC log of aria-apg on 2023-09-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:54:15 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-aria-apg-irc
- 17:54:20 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 17:54:21 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
- 17:57:17 [Matt_King]
- MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
- 17:57:27 [Matt_King]
- present+
- 17:57:33 [Matt_King]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:57:34 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
- 17:58:49 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
- 18:00:57 [jugglinmike]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 18:01:06 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, start the meeting
- 18:01:06 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 18:01:07 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria-apg
- 18:01:07 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
- 18:01:24 [jugglinmike]
- meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference
- 18:01:27 [Jem]
- Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practice
- 18:01:51 [jugglinmike]
- present+ jugglinmike
- 18:01:58 [jugglinmike]
- scribe+ jugglinmike
- 18:02:00 [Jem]
- present+
- 18:02:57 [howard-e]
- howard-e has joined #aria-apg
- 18:03:22 [howard-e]
- present+
- 18:04:09 [jongund]
- present+ jongund
- 18:05:12 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: reflections on TPAC
- 18:05:20 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: APG was discussed in multiple contexts
- 18:05:43 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The most substantial discussion was around the Tooltip pattern. It got 90 minutes of discussion in the ARIA WG!
- 18:06:24 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/TPAC-2023-ARIA-Meetings
- 18:06:26 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I need to revisit the minutes to capture the essense of that discussion
- 18:06:43 [Jem]
- tooltip: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2002
- 18:06:43 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I think we made some decisions that enable some forward progress on the Tooltip pattern
- 18:07:26 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: Why did this pattern get consideration at TPAC?
- 18:07:40 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Tooltips are all over the place, APG doesn't have an example, and we have an issue that's been open for 7 years
- 18:08:04 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Separately, we talked about bringing new features into ARIA and making sure we have alignment with screen reader developers
- 18:08:18 [Jem]
- Tuesday meeting agenda: Relationship with ATs, and update on ARIA-AT results
- 18:08:45 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I suggested that for the new features we're working on in 2024, we should include early prototype examples in the APG, and then give the ARIA-AT community group an opportunity to consider how they would write tests
- 18:09:47 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That seems to be agreeable to the folks involved in the discussion, though some expressed concerned that it might be too early for that kind of design
- 18:09:57 [Jem]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1884
- 18:10:06 [Jem]
- 1.4 prioritization
- 18:10:08 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: ARIA has four very clear priorities for the 2024 roadmap
- 18:10:45 [Jem]
- notification proposal: https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1958
- 18:10:47 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: 1. ARIA actions, 2. AT notifications, 3. changes to ARIA Model to support UI popover, and (my favorite) 4. list view
- 18:11:02 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm already working on the ARIA pull requests for modal and list view
- 18:11:36 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: ARIA actions, as we know, has already made a lot of progress. The main thing is to get someone (hopefully Sarah) to write an example
- 18:12:08 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The main implication for APG is that we need a way to write content that is LOUDLY labeled as "experimental". That content is included as a way for the community to iterate
- 18:12:27 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I don't know if we can prioritize this by the end of this year, though
- 18:13:17 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I felt really good about the progress we made on all of these things! APG also received some nice call outs; it seems as though the wider community is recognizing our work.
- 18:14:31 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Status of Site Updates
- 18:14:31 [Jem]
- Topic: Status of Site Updates
- 18:15:25 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We landed three changes, including the longstanding patch from jongund "Listbox Examples: Update scrolling of listbox item with focus into view when page is magnified"
- 18:15:40 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2622
- 18:16:04 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Those patches are listed in the agenda for this meeting
- 18:16:14 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: PR 2780: Fix for iOS Safari combobox bug
- 18:16:23 [jugglinmike]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2780
- 18:17:00 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I put in a review checklist, and I'm pretty sure we only need people looking at the visual presentation and the code
- 18:17:25 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: There's not much code, but the code review is important because we want to make sure the approach is appropriate
- 18:18:10 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The patch uses absolute numbers, and I wonder if that is the best way
- 18:18:47 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: I can do a code review
- 18:20:23 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: My second question is about the two examples which are NOT changed by this pull request. Could we have someone look and verify that this problem does not exist in iOS and Safari on those two?
- 18:21:16 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The other two examples are "select only" and "date picker". They do not use the CSS which are modified by this patch (they have their own separate CSS)
- 18:21:28 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: I can look at those, too
- 18:21:53 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Thanks! If those also need changes, I'd like those changes to be included in the scope of this patch
- 18:22:45 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Because I don't actually understand what was wrong (or what "auto" does in that patch), I had trouble choosing a good title for this pull request
- 18:25:18 [jugglinmike]
- [Jem explains the problem]
- 18:26:33 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Okay, thank you. I have the answer that I need for the third question. If jongund and jem submit reviews, then Andrea will have what she needs
- 18:26:43 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: PR 2775: Feed example changes
- 18:27:11 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Because neither Andrea nor Ariella is here, I think we should skip this today
- 18:27:22 [jugglinmike]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2775
- 18:27:34 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Issue 2798: Question about how typeahead should work in treeviews
- 18:27:45 [jugglinmike]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2798
- 18:28:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The reporter believes that the description of tree view is not specific enough about scrolling in a specific situation
- 18:29:20 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: They offer a solution
- 18:29:22 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: As far as I can tell from native implementations of tree view, their suggestion would be more of a search than a typeahead.
- 18:29:58 [Jem]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/treeview/examples/treeview-navigation/
- 18:30:05 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Scrolling to things in tree view that are inside of a collapsed node seems more like a search behavior to me
- 18:32:01 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: in my mind, scrolling into collapsed content would not necessarily be great because the user may have content collapsed on purpose--as a mechanism to limit the number of potential destinations
- 18:32:41 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Imagine trying to use "type ahead" with a huge tree view like the Windows Registry
- 18:34:18 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: there's also the implementation concern of tree views whose "branches" are expensive to retrieve
- 18:34:31 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: e.g. for a file system hierarchy which requires disk I/O
- 18:35:44 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: In those situations, implementations may intentionally defer the population of collapsed items. They can't provide a general search across all the content of the tree view because they haven't retrieved (or otherwise computed) collapsed content
- 18:36:13 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Issue 2800: HTML structure of listbox with grouped options
- 18:36:27 [jugglinmike]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2800
- 18:37:18 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Is this just another equally valid way of structuring content? Or is it better in some way? Are there any disadvantages?
- 18:38:47 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: The suggested approach may be semantically more accurate
- 18:39:13 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I have some concerns about indexing, but now that I think about it, I don't know if we have a spec for this case
- 18:40:15 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: In Chrome, the way indexes are calculated, is that the entire list has 11 items.
- 18:40:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: But at one point in time, there were people arguing about how/when numbering restarts in groups and menus
- 18:41:17 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Firefox is different! It says "cat" is "one of five", "reindeer" five of five, and then "dolphin" is one of three
- 18:41:54 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We have a meaningful difference between Firefox and Chrome, and I think it shouldn't exist
- 18:42:15 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I wonder what WebKit does, but I'm not going to try that just now
- 18:42:35 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: From my perspective, this is one list that just has some groupings within it
- 18:45:12 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: It's kind of funny because HTML doesn't actually have a semantic structure equivalent to "group" which fits within the "UL" element
- 18:45:19 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The "select" element does, though
- 18:46:03 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: In a sense, Firefox is justified in its behavior because the HTML semantics describe three separate lists
- 18:46:32 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That would still be the case even in this reporter's example because there are still separate lists (they're just nested)
- 18:48:38 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: I always thought that role="presentation" applied recursively to all of an element's contents
- 18:49:38 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: It does, but authors can re-surface specific ancestor nodes by specifying an explicit role on them. This is what the proposed example does
- 18:51:18 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: My initial impression was that these were two equivalent way of coding it, that they're both valid, and authors can choose between either. I still feel that way
- 18:52:09 [jugglinmike]
- [all in attendence agreed that this is a matter of personal preference]
- 18:54:31 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: updating the version of skipTo
- 18:55:00 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: I found the template for the example. For the other pages (like the simple "about" pages) are there templates? Or are those more hard-coded
- 18:55:20 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: To update the version, you update it in aria-practices, and that will automatically apply everywhere
- 18:55:33 [jugglinmike]
- jongund: But I need to add an HTML "data-" attribute to the script tag
- 18:55:55 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Oh! That would require two pull requests that would have to be merged simultaneously. I'm not sure how that would work
- 18:56:46 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I recommend you open an issue in the WAI-ARIA-Practices repository that describes your requirements, and a pull request in the ARIA-Practices repository that implements what you need to do there
- 18:57:11 [jugglinmike]
- howard-e: I will keep a look out for the ARIA-Practices pull request and review it
- 18:58:05 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That ARIA-Practices pull request should only modify content/shared/js
- 18:58:22 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, end the meeting
- 18:58:22 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jugglinmike, Jem, howard-e, jongund
- 18:58:24 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 18:58:26 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
- 18:58:32 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 18:58:32 [jugglinmike]
- RRSAgent, leave
- 18:58:32 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items
- 18:58:32 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria-apg