14:16:24 RRSAgent has joined #ag 14:16:28 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-ag-irc 14:16:28 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:16:29 Meeting: AGWG Teleconference 14:16:33 chair: Chuck 14:16:42 meeting: AGWG-2023-09-19 14:16:51 rrsagent, generate minutes 14:16:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-ag-minutes.html Chuck 14:16:59 agenda+ TPAC Wrap Up (Lessons learned, Current Status, Next Steps) 14:17:07 agenda+ WCAG 2 Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag2x-backlog1/ 14:18:59 regrets: Detlev Fischer, Jennie Delisi, Todd Libby 14:19:22 ljoakley has joined #ag 14:29:28 Chuck has changed the topic to: 14:51:19 present+ 14:51:20 agenda? 14:53:44 laura has joined #ag 14:55:38 present+ Laura_Carlson 14:55:47 Scribe: laura 14:56:58 ShawnT has joined #ag 14:59:01 bruce_bailey has joined #ag 14:59:19 present+ 14:59:45 Francis_Storr has joined #ag 14:59:48 dan_bjorge has joined #ag 14:59:49 jon_avila has joined #ag 14:59:57 present+ 15:00:00 present+ 15:00:27 dan_bjorge_ has joined #ag 15:00:34 DanielHE has joined #ag 15:00:52 Frankie has joined #ag 15:00:57 present+ 15:01:27 GN015 has joined #ag 15:01:28 present+ 15:01:36 present+ 15:01:54 Ben_Tillyer has joined #ag 15:01:56 present+ 15:01:56 present+ 15:02:11 present+ 15:02:21 scotto has joined #ag 15:02:26 present+ 15:02:27 present+jon_avila 15:02:34 Chuck: welcome back. thank you for attending. 15:02:34 giacomo-petri has joined #ag 15:02:36 present+ 15:02:43 dj has joined #ag 15:02:45 present+ 15:02:58 Chuck: Any new members? 15:03:00 q+ 15:03:16 Wilco has joined #ag 15:03:18 Welcome Giacomo Petri! 15:03:24 present+ 15:03:31 mbgower has joined #ag 15:03:31 bri has joined #ag 15:03:36 present+ 15:03:38 ack dj 15:03:43 GP: Gaicaom Petti. I'm a new member. 15:03:48 present+ 15:04:05 Raf has joined #ag 15:04:07 q+ 15:04:07 Can we please have a WCAG 2.2 publishing update? 15:04:08 CH : I'm now with Norhterh Essex 15:04:16 present+ 15:04:34 Makoto has joined #ag 15:04:49 present+ 15:04:52 sarahhorton has joined #ag 15:04:58 AC: WCAG 2.2 will be coming out soon. Making Progress. 15:05:07 present+ 15:05:25 ... agreed to I18y changes. 15:05:28 q? 15:05:31 ack Wilco 15:05:42 ac: next week or the next 15:05:57 wilco: would like to revisit the charter. 15:06:09 zakim, take up item 1 15:06:09 agendum 1 -- TPAC Wrap Up (Lessons learned, Current Status, Next Steps) -- taken up [from Chuck] 15:06:13 presnet+ 15:06:21 present+ 15:06:26 David_Cox has joined #ag 15:06:41 s/presnet+// 15:06:42 chuck: some issues with brreakout rooms. 15:06:50 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oy5Guap5wnMFhp4OPhgGn1ihuHYmksstPqMHMrc_Krg/edit#gid=0 15:06:56 ... did numerous exercises 15:07:18 ... most groups got to the outcomes. 15:07:31 ... lots of progress. Thanks everyone. 15:07:58 ... chairs need to formalize next steps. 15:08:06 tburtin has joined #ag 15:08:47 kirkwood_ has joined #AG 15:08:57 jeanne has joined #ag 15:09:07 ... we recieved positive comments. open to all feedback. Reach out to chairs. 15:09:08 present+ 15:09:44 Rain has joined #ag 15:09:49 present+ 15:09:50 chuck: comments on how the sessions were run. Intersting process. 15:09:54 present+ 15:10:26 ... when week to week we could work in between meetings. 15:10:53 q? 15:11:08 ... worked well for brainstorming. But no tikme to contemplate things. 15:11:29 Jem has joined #ag 15:11:47 present+ JaeunJemmaKu 15:12:08 ... content that came out of the sessions. Mike Gower's feedback. 15:12:41 The user needs biased towards anecdotes 15:13:10 MG: user needs based on antidotes. 15:13:11 q+ 15:13:16 q+ on the research, I found a variety of how it went, depending on the topic. 15:13:28 ... good to be more rigorous. 15:14:11 ... User needs could be QAed against existing versions. 15:14:39 ... Lots of good material left on the cutting room floor. 15:14:52 ack Ch 15:14:52 rrsagent, make minutes 15:14:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-ag-minutes.html Jem 15:14:59 ... should make sure not discarded. 15:15:22 Chuck: lacked research in some cases. 15:15:37 ... note that we need to find it. 15:16:02 ... That did work well. Lots to be reviewed.. 15:16:19 q+ to ask that we publish the research links so we can get public help in identifying research. 15:16:29 ... also need to check overlap. 15:16:51 ack ala 15:16:51 alastairc, you wanted to comment on the research, I found a variety of how it went, depending on the topic. 15:17:01 ... we have alot of things in the scratch pads. 15:17:05 q+ 15:17:17 ac: differs by topic 15:18:06 ... need to solidify foundation material. 15:18:10 ack Jeanne 15:18:10 jeanne, you wanted to ask that we publish the research links so we can get public help in identifying research. 15:18:37 q+ 15:18:39 jeanne: variety of approached by groups. 15:18:56 ... like tthat we kept process flexible. 15:19:40 +1 to showing our work! 15:19:48 ... variety of approaches. Would like to publish the research that we based things on. 15:19:50 ack Wil 15:19:52 Jeanne++ 15:19:58 Also +1 to showing our research work! 15:20:20 wilco: we were just scraching the surrface. Worried me. 15:20:59 ... missed opptorinies to meet with other groups. Siloing 15:20:59 ack Gregg 15:21:04 Present+ 15:21:14 +1 for the lost opportunity for TPAC inter-group meetings 15:21:15 gregg: there arre user needs docs. 15:21:23 ... they could be cited. 15:21:46 +1 to cross group meetings 15:21:53 ... have research if there is value. 15:22:14 LoriO has joined #ag 15:22:32 ... lack research if something is there or not. 15:22:43 q? 15:22:48 ... some things are known. 15:22:53 present+ 15:23:32 chuck: overall process gave us a lot of content for exploratory. 15:23:45 ... still alot to do. 15:24:18 ... Exicited. alot of approaches and diversity. 15:24:23 q? 15:24:29 q+ to mention TR ISO/IEC TR 29138-1 15:24:44 Information technology — Accessibility 15:24:44 considerations for people with 15:24:44 disabilities — 15:24:44 Part 1: 15:24:45 User needs summary 15:24:45 ack Gregg 15:24:45 GreggVan, you wanted to mention TR ISO/IEC TR 29138-1 15:25:03 https://www.iso.org/standard/71953.html 15:25:10 gregg: https://www.iso.org/standard/71953.html 15:25:16 Information technology — Accessibility considerations for people with 15:25:16 disabilities — Part 1: User needs summary 15:25:30 q+ to ask if IE re-application requests should have gone out? (sorry to miss queue during 1st agenda item) 15:25:33 Information technology — Accessibility considerations for people with disabilities — Part 1: User needs summary 15:25:55 q+ 15:26:09 ack Br 15:26:09 bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask if IE re-application requests should have gone out? (sorry to miss queue during 1st agenda item) 15:26:33 bruce: any progress on reapplication for invited experts? 15:26:55 ac: will check with w3c staff. 15:26:55 q+ Is there any new info or a timeline written up on when the AG WG charter restart will happen? 15:26:55 ack ljo 15:27:19 +1 !!!! 15:27:36 lori: enjoyed working with other people I hadn't met before. 15:27:42 q+ to ask if there's any new info or a timeline written up on when the AG WG charter restart will happen? 15:27:48 ack Dav 15:27:48 David_Cox, you wanted to ask if there's any new info or a timeline written up on when the AG WG charter restart will happen? 15:27:55 chuck: it was more personable. 15:28:05 David Cox: 15:28:23 ... any timeline for charter restart? 15:28:50 chuck: it is in progress. not aware of status page. 15:29:36 q+ 15:29:44 ac: previous charter was approvedby some groups but may need to go through again. 15:29:50 ack Ch 15:30:22 kirkwood_ has joined #AG 15:30:27 chuck: a page may be a good idea. Will discuss with chairs. 15:30:33 q+ conference feedback 15:30:47 ack Conf 15:30:53 ack Feed 15:31:29 q+ 15:31:33 ack Wil 15:31:35 tburtin: Trying to recover. Took a lot of physical energy. 15:31:37 Current Chartter: https://www.w3.org/2019/12/ag-charter 15:31:39 Proposed: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2022/charter.html 15:32:08 Wilco: will we revisit a charrter at a new meeting? 15:32:30 ac: haven't heard anythin concete. 15:32:41 q? 15:32:43 q+ 15:32:45 ack Ch 15:33:01 wilco: worried that it may not be a realistic charter. 15:33:06 q+ to say that the charter has been approved and post-poned multiple times. 15:33:21 ack Jeanne 15:33:21 jeanne, you wanted to say that the charter has been approved and post-poned multiple times. 15:33:29 chuck: hearing that we should revist the charter. 15:33:59 jeanne: charter has been approved but not started. 15:34:09 q+ 15:34:23 ack Ch 15:34:29 +100 to Jeanne 15:34:41 ... changing at this time could be catastrophic. 15:35:11 Looking at the proposed, the two year 2022-24 timeframe seems appropriate (although it would need to 2023-25), under '1.2 Focus for the charter' 15:35:22 chuck: need to talk to w3c contact about ramifications. 15:35:22 +1 15:35:36 q? 15:35:53 zakim, take up next item 15:35:53 agendum 2 -- WCAG 2 Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag2x-backlog1/ -- taken up [from Chuck] 15:36:06 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag2x-backlog1/results 15:36:55 TOPIC: Question 1 - Added third line to In brief section for WCAG 2.0 SCs #3356 15:37:02 Chuck has changed the topic to: Question 1 - Added third line to In brief section for WCAG 2.0 SCs #3356 15:37:17 chuck: Michael has continued to work on the 'in brief' sections for the understanding documents. This update adds the 'why it's important' to the WCAG 2.0 SCs in PR 3356. 15:38:09 q+ 15:38:13 ac: rain and gregg had feedback 15:38:54 ag: haven't seen all the feedback yet. Not all my content but EOWG too. 15:38:58 q+ on the length requirements 15:39:17 ack Gregg 15:39:27 q+ 15:39:58 gregg: picked out some for comments and posted them to the list. 15:40:19 ack ala 15:40:19 alastairc, you wanted to comment on the length requirements 15:40:28 mg: I'll put them in as comments. 15:41:03 ac: some would expand length. They are supposed to be brief. 15:41:07 ack Rain 15:41:41 Great - always good to separate 'concerns' from 'considerations'. 15:41:53 rain: sent huge amout of feedback. Small amout of concerns are at the top. 15:42:21 q? 15:42:32 ... could be their own topic. focus on ones that need tweeking. 15:42:34 q+ 15:42:46 ack ala 15:42:59 Chuck: mike will review. 15:43:25 ac: may be better to do them individually in the future. 15:43:53 TOPIC: Question 2 - Text Spacing and scoped styles with shadow dom #2495 15:44:02 Chuck has changed the topic to: Question 2 - Text Spacing and scoped styles with shadow dom #2495 15:44:31 chuck: In issue 2495 Scott raised that a (relatively) new feature of HTML blocks the user's ability to apply their own styles. 15:44:31 To clarify this aspect Scott created PR 2794. 15:44:54 6 Agree with the update. 3 Agree if it is updated (specify change in the comment). 15:45:35 q? 15:45:51 ac: need explain what shadow root is. Greggs comment more substansive. 15:45:54 q+ 15:46:08 Gregg: We can't add an exemption in the understanding document that is not in the provision itself. 15:46:19 ... the way to fix this is to point out that the SC says it applies where the technology allows it. 15:46:41 ... So it should not say it is exempted. We should instead say that it is not required in this instance because it is not supported by this technology 15:46:41 the tricky bit is that HTML does not support it but the particular implementation blocks it. 15:46:54 "then it is not applicable to that portion of content." 15:47:40 ... not sure if it a feature or a capabilty. 15:47:40 ack Wil 15:48:07 wilco: this thing is not possible in shadow dom. 15:48:17 q+ 15:48:24 ... it has broader implications. 15:48:41 q+ 15:48:43 q+ 15:48:55 ack Gregg 15:49:04 ... I don't like this change. Enoucageing authors to use shadow dom. 15:49:20 q+ to ask when devs would/should want to use closed ShadowDom? 15:49:26 gregg: what is the reason for toggling it on? 15:49:37 q+ 15:49:55 ack sco 15:50:24 +1 I mentioned this when we worked on this SC :-) 15:50:51 scott: It has been around. It was a purposeful addition to HTML. 15:50:59 q+ 15:51:15 ... It seems siloed. there arre use cases. 15:51:17 q+ 15:51:21 q- 15:51:26 ack ala 15:51:26 alastairc, you wanted to ask when devs would/should want to use closed ShadowDom? 15:51:32 q+ we absolutely can and do say that you can't use features of html () 15:52:03 AC: shaow dom wasn't popular when SC we written. 15:52:13 q+ 15:52:34 ... It has undermined one of the basic tenants of the web. 15:52:51 ... would like to understand more about it. 15:52:59 ack Wilco 15:53:07 could implement gregg's suggestion. 15:53:20 q+ 15:53:44 q+ 15:53:45 wilco: closed shado dom used by browsers. Not sure of use cases other than that. 15:54:16 q+ 15:54:25 +1 to say just because something is technically achievable doesn't make it fine to be excepted 15:54:30 ... if html element is not accessible wcag doen't need to exempt it. 15:54:35 ack dj 15:55:03 dj: we have done it wtih standard elements like marquee 15:55:13 oh! And before I forget, you CAN use it if you have sufficient spacing by default 15:55:27 "don't use this HTML thing" feels more like a technology-specific failure, rather than a piece of WCAG guidance. Perhaps a new failure technique? 15:55:29 ack Greg 15:55:36 ... nee do be able to chage it with your controls. 15:55:43 Thought marquee was obsolete? https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/obsolete.html#the-marquee-element 15:55:44 kirkwood has joined #ag 15:55:54 Could this be re-written as a failure technique? 15:56:22 gregg: may take may edit out. And provide your oun way. 15:56:32 ack Daniel 15:56:59 Daniel: it is popular in design systems. 15:57:12 ... I'm on the fence. 15:57:47 ack dan 15:58:08 ack sco 15:58:15 Dan: worked with poeple that have used design systems. 15:58:25 q+ 15:58:33 q+ to ask for scribe change and next steps 15:58:47 q+ 15:58:52 I am not sure that *every* use of Shadow DOM is a failure -- but Shadow DOM is frequently an a11y barrier. 15:58:53 Scott: Some browers have implemented it. 15:58:53 q+ on browser features 15:59:30 present+ 15:59:39 ... have guidance that people should make components in light dom. 15:59:42 jon_avila has joined #ag 15:59:49 Also gonna note that just because some design systems like using something doesn't make it successfully accessible. 16:00:05 I can 16:00:16 I got it! 16:00:22 rrsagent, make minutes 16:00:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/19-ag-minutes.html laura 16:00:30 q+ to say that WCAG is content -- not browser/user agent so we can ignore the question as it relates to browser - but need to pass this issue to WCAG2ICT since they deal with software ALSO treat like images of text? 16:00:32 bri: scribe 16:00:37 scribe: bri 16:00:44 ack Wil 16:01:04 Wilco: clarified on terminology, light, closed, and open shadow dom 16:01:39 Wilco: wants to emphasize that closed shadow dom is the possible challenge 16:02:00 Thanks for the description, Wilco 16:02:01 ack Ch 16:02:01 Chuck, you wanted to ask for scribe change and next steps 16:02:17 Wilco: if you use closed, you are now responsible and have taken it away from the user. ensure you know the responsibility 16:02:19 We should kick it back to the backlog group 16:02:23 ack Greg 16:02:23 GreggVan, you wanted to say that WCAG is content -- not browser/user agent so we can ignore the question as it relates to browser - but need to pass this issue to WCAG2ICT 16:02:26 ... since they deal with software ALSO treat like images of text? 16:02:38 GreggVan: suggests a subcommittee and takes this offline 16:03:02 s/Gaicaom Petti/Giacomo Petri/ 16:03:19 GreggVan: the parts about browsers in its code, is not our issue but we should pass that on to ICT 16:03:45 s/Norhterh/Northern/ 16:03:59 GreggVan: like images with text, we have certain instances you can use it 16:04:01 ack ala 16:04:01 alastairc, you wanted to comment on browser features 16:04:08 s/brreakout /breakout / 16:04:11 alastairc: we'll take it back to backlog on Friday 16:04:36 alastairc: agree with Wilco that we need to be clear on which is which 16:04:40 s/recieved/received/ 16:05:05 alastairc: if there's a choice between open/closed and open is better, we can make that clearer 16:05:19 alastairc: remembered horizontal doesn't have a WG 16:05:24 s/Intersting /Interesting / 16:05:44 alastairc: there is a time we pick up on browser based things 16:05:56 s/ tikme / time / 16:05:57 alastairc:ex. author is using native form error checking 16:06:22 TOPIC: Question 3 - Clarity for programmatically determined link context term example #3361 16:06:33 Chuck has changed the topic to: Question 3 - Clarity for programmatically determined link context term example #3361 16:06:36 Chuck: moving on to third question. thanks for patience as I update topics 16:06:46 Chuck: scrolling to question 3 16:06:51 s/ alot / a lot / 16:07:01 Chuck: scott raised 3361 16:07:16 Chuck: using "list" instead of "list item" 16:07:18 s/approached by /approaches by / 16:07:31 Chuck: 10 agreed. no disagreed 16:07:44 Chuck: want to add anything Alastair? 16:07:50 proposed RESOLUTION: Accept PR 3362 to address issue 3361 16:07:51 s/ tthat / that / 16:07:54 alastairc: no, audio cutting out. be right back 16:07:58 +1 16:08:03 +1 16:08:04 +1 16:08:04 +1 16:08:05 Chuck: proposed resolution, please +1 16:08:05 +1 16:08:08 +1 16:08:11 +1 16:08:11 +1 16:08:13 +1 16:08:13 +1 16:08:15 +1 16:08:16 +1; good catch on list versus list item 16:08:17 +1 16:08:19 +1 16:08:20 +1 16:08:25 +1 16:08:30 Chuck: variety of +1, no concerns. please raise concerns now 16:08:31 RESOLUTION: Accept PR 3362 to address issue 3361 16:08:33 +1 16:08:34 Chuck: resolving this 16:08:40 TOPIC: Question 4 - Clarity around a "change initiated by the user" #3226 16:08:43 Chuck: updating topics for question 4 16:08:47 s/scraching the surrface. /scratching the surface. / 16:08:48 Chuck has changed the topic to: Question 4 - Clarity around a "change initiated by the user" #3226 16:09:05 kirkwood_ has joined #AG 16:09:13 Chuck: scrolling to question 4. 3226 16:09:28 s/opptorinies /opportunities / 16:09:31 q+ 16:09:35 Chuck: 9 agreed. 1 person had a suggestion 16:09:43 ack dan 16:09:48 Chuck: dan in queue 16:10:10 dan_bjorge_: clarifying the normative text statement 16:10:16 s/arre /are / 16:10:37 s/alot /a lot / 16:10:59 q+ 16:11:01 Rain: explains her suggestion comment 16:11:03 s/Exicited. alot /Excited. We had a lot / 16:11:06 ack Gregg 16:11:19 q+ to say I think we'll need to stick to the requirement as stated 16:11:20 GreggVan: almost every time you log in, it changes controls on a page 16:11:36 GreggVan: thinks changing controls on a page shouldn't be disallowed 16:11:51