09:30:27 RRSAgent has joined #apa 09:30:31 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-irc 09:30:31 RRSAgent, make logs Public 09:31:02 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), matatk 09:31:33 Roy has joined #apa 09:35:39 meeting: APA TPAC Thursday 09:35:39 Irfan has joined #apa 09:35:44 present+ 09:35:51 present+ 09:35:58 Scribe+ Irfan Ali 09:36:03 present+ 09:36:05 Fazio has joined #apa 09:36:07 CharlesL has joined #apa 09:36:10 present+ 09:36:11 present+ Janina 09:36:13 present+ 09:36:17 rrsagent, make minutes 09:36:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Irfan 09:37:21 Breakout: https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-haptics-minutes.html 09:37:33 topic: Tencent's work on Haptics 09:37:34 https://github.com/w3c/tpac2023-breakouts/issues/19 09:37:52 Slideset: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/breakout_haptics_TPAC/haptics.pdf 09:38:34 zakim, who is here? 09:38:34 Present: Irfan, matatk, Roy, Fazio, Janina, CharlesL 09:38:36 On IRC I see CharlesL, Fazio, Irfan, Roy, RRSAgent, Zakim, matatk, daniel-montalvo, spectranaut_, jamesn, wendyreid, plh, bkardell_, anssik, ZoeBijl, slightlyoff, cwilso, tink, 09:38:36 ... Rachael, ada, M2cshkpcgrp, gonzu_15, imlostlmao, kevin, jasonjgw, janina, gb, agendabot, jcraig 09:39:13 rrsagent, make minutes 09:39:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 09:41:36 AvneeshSingh has joined #apa 09:41:49 present+ 09:42:23 harry_ has joined #apa 09:42:31 present+ harry_ 09:42:41 harry_: Enhancing haptics for accessibility 09:43:03 Slides at: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/breakout_haptics_TPAC/haptics.pdf 09:43:44 Haptics are now used in dental schools to simulate cavities 09:44:04 haptics amend human machine interaction, Haptics identify all the tech that provide the sensation of digital touch feedback. 09:44:58 samples such as New DuelSense PS5 gamepad, emersive gaming experience etc 09:45:34 various typeof haptics such as smart phone vibration. 09:45:34 sense of touch provides a powerful channel for communication and engagement 09:46:12 diverse mobile devises and components make it difficult to achieve a consistent experience 09:47:38 type of haptics effects - independent design, auditory based design etc. 09:50:32 pattern of the system is based on event such as type, timing, control, parameteres and curve 09:51:21 use cases - firearms, AWM, vehicle etc 09:51:44 We’ve talked to 100+ visually impaired users 09:52:01 Haptics can help visually impaired users to gain more information and understanding. 09:52:26 use case of accessibility- What do visually impaired people use their mobile phones for when accessing the internet? 09:53:43 most commonly used case is Chat like social network. second is music, third is news. these are most common use cases of this application 09:54:34 rrsagent, make minutes 09:54:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Irfan 09:55:49 harry_: provides solution of keyboard and braille users 09:55:50 using input method 09:56:34 we have solution to simulate 6 point braille. 09:56:56 q? 09:57:15 which provides the results based on intensity, frequency and time 09:58:18 haptic solution for map and navigation- When using walking navigation, if the user veers off the designated route, they will be alerted through vibrations and an audio announcement, guiding them back to the right direction. 09:58:51 Through customized vibration effects, users are reminded in four different scenarios: waiting at the station, about to arrive at the station, arriving at the station, and arriving at the destination. 09:59:36 q+ 09:59:38 ack Fazio 10:00:04 Fazio: what does it do what other devices don't do? 10:00:32 Fazio: it sounds super useful 10:02:34 matatk: finding direction, I use haptics feedback. I agree with Fazio that haptics can be super useful 10:02:34 Fazio: I do have some disabilities and I find it very useful 10:02:34 matatk: use cases that Harry has presented are very useful 10:02:41 q? 10:03:19 harry has joined #apa 10:05:46 harry: content creator will be bale to find tune the haptics frequency and time which will address problems for the users who get confused with the haptics 10:06:33 Good Haptics info: https://www.ted.com/talks/katherine_kuchenbecker_the_technology_of_touch?language=en 10:07:11 promoting Haptics as a common human language is useful by Common understanding, standard API and data, unified user experience, evaluation and metrics; 10:08:20 some standard work is ongoing to attach haptic devices to different body parts. 10:09:03 Avatar: body (or part of body) representation 10:09:12 Perception: haptic perception containing channels of a specific modality 10:09:22 Device: physical system having one or more actuators configured to render haptic sensation corresponding with a given signal 10:09:49 q? 10:10:35 matatk: there are some area of related work of W3 that we are aware of. I would like to share one that come to my mind in a while 10:10:49 Fazio: haptics are under utilized techniques 10:11:00 rrsagent, make minutes 10:11:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 10:11:23 q? 10:11:23 Fazio: I support your work 10:12:49 matatk: few specification are relevant. RTF have XR accessibility user requirement document 10:14:46 harry: webXR is lot like open XR api. 10:15:35 matatk: document like this can be useful to work on some use-cases 10:16:02 https://www.w3.org/TR/xaur/ 10:17:31 matatk: one of thing we should be talking is to including support for heptics 10:18:03 media accessibility user requirements; we are about to start. its a good timing for this haptic information 10:18:55 emersive web working group will have a spec that you might be able to contribute 10:19:49 harry: we discussed this during another session and talked to the editor of this document 10:21:36 matatk: there is another community group which is focusing on haptics 10:21:59 lof of thing will become specifications. you can start with community group and ask for consensus 10:22:11 s/lof/lot 10:23:11 harry: I wonder if the community group gets closed without any output? 10:24:07 matatk: I am not sure if that is a problem. 10:25:48 matatk: sounds like if such a thing does not exist and you want to bring it, it will bring from other part of w3c to help. emersive web have an active community group 10:26:16 you have to get the consensus from the community to publish any standard at W3 10:26:45 if you want to go down to that route, will support the idea of seeking the engagement of the community. 10:27:00 some people in the room will interested and follow on this 10:27:26 matatk: you mentioned haptics in relation to WCAG. I didnt find haptics in actual guidelines 10:27:52 harry: may be you can search tactile. thats the word which is used in WCAG doc 10:28:24 matatk: this is mentioned as a sign language 10:29:15 the principles are general at WCAG. we have a whole range of techniques of meeting WCAG criteria. they are based on technology being used. 10:29:51 Fazio has joined #apa 10:30:03 It can also simulate braille 10:30:12 perceivable is one of the principle of WCAG and haptics can be a use case 10:30:34 haptics could come in play in meeting WCAG requirements 10:30:59 q+ 10:30:59 q? 10:31:06 ack Roy 10:31:14 q+ 10:31:42 q 10:31:52 Roy: Harry looking to get inputs from our standard document. Also, Harry mentioned that they want to some extension of ARIA for haptics 10:32:13 I wonder there is possibility of exploring this idea 10:32:41 janina: Now it is a good idea to put something in their agenda since they have just finished 1.2 10:32:53 timing is good right now to talk about this 10:34:10 matatk: if we imagine that we do something with ARIA on haptics, I do see some possibility. 10:35:04 janina: if vibration API is too simple then we need to ask them to consider these use cases. In that case we do not need a community group 10:35:24 q? 10:35:26 matatk: we can take an action to ask them to device and senses group about their plans 10:37:08 harry: if develops wants to create a method for haptics, what should they do? how to design, implement and test. there are a couple of solutions. 10:37:08 q? 10:37:08 we do have some haptics guidelines and creating common UI elements. 10:38:10 rrsagent, make minutes 10:38:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Irfan 10:38:18 ack fazio 10:38:18 matatk: we should ask our RQTF 10:38:51 standardize haptics, I am not sure if it will go that deep. it may be that we could have some stuff like ARIA. 10:39:09 matatk: first step is to get high-resolution API question resolved than we can work on that 10:41:01 matatk: we would have to check if there was a consensus. biggest challenge is that we do not have resources to do it quickly but your help will be useful 10:41:34 harry: my understanding is that we dont need to wait for high-resolution API. system API already provides that kind of capabilities 10:41:41 ack Fazio 10:41:59 Fazio: it will be nice to explore simulated braille 10:42:09 harry: I can share my experience on this 10:43:38 we are not able to provide a satisfied solution for braille. 10:44:25 matatk: it is a very fascinating work. the challenge for us is if W3 is publishing this then we do need to make sure that web API work is there. we have to make sure that it is possible to that in a browser. 10:44:58 matatk: I am excited by the possibilities. big focus to make the web platform as native platform 10:45:33 dont want to promise if we can solve those things in parallel but dont take it as discouragement 10:46:18 devices and senses is not immediate path forward and we will do our best to attract people to participate in this process. 10:46:35 q? 10:46:37 appreciate your time and presentation. 10:46:49 RRSAgent, make minutes 10:46:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Roy 10:46:59 we will close it now. last comment 10:47:29 harry: thanks for listening and to discuss this topic. API work is little behind but accessibility is much more important. lets keep in touch and talk what should we do and how can we work together 10:47:34 rrsagent, make minutes 10:47:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Irfan 10:47:58 Subtopic: Epub 10:48:28 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Image-Missing-When-Described-in-Context 10:52:57 rrsagent, make minutes 10:52:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Irfan 10:55:41 s/Subtopic: Epub/Topic: Epub/ 10:55:57 RRSAgent, make minutes 10:55:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Roy 10:59:28 need specific examples from publishers most common for images described in context. 11:01:20 RRSAgent, make minutes 11:01:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html CharlesL 11:02:52 matatk has left #apa 11:30:24 kirkwood has joined #APA 12:15:19 daniel-montalvo has joined #apa 12:16:38 CharlesL has joined #apa 12:16:52 CharlesL has left #apa 12:19:33 daniel-montalvo has joined #apa 12:23:49 atomasevich has joined #apa 12:27:09 Roy has joined #apa 12:31:36 matatk has joined #apa 12:33:02 mitch11 has joined #apa 12:33:05 present+ 12:33:21 nigel has joined #apa 12:33:26 cpn has joined #apa 12:33:41 present+ Chris_Needham 12:34:08 Roy has joined #apa 12:34:08 Present+ Nigel_Megitt 12:34:14 tidoust has joined #apa 12:34:49 present+ 12:34:53 present+ 12:34:56 topic: MEIG + TT 12:35:43 scribe: tidoust 12:35:43 present+ 12:35:43 scribe+ cpn 12:35:43 scribe+ nigelm 12:35:46 scribe+ nigel 12:35:47 rrsagent, make minutes 12:35:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 12:36:02 scribe- nigelm 12:36:21 matatk: Would like to start with introductions 12:36:41 [round of introductions] 12:37:57 Nigel Megitt, BBC, co-Chair TTWG, chair ADCG 12:38:49 Matthew Atkinson, TPGi, co-chair APA 12:38:52 present+ Janina 12:38:53 Chris Needham, BBC, co-chair Media WG, co-chair Media & Entertainment IG 12:38:59 François Daoust, W3C, staff contact for the Media WG 12:39:04 Janina: APA co-chair 12:39:05 Roy, staff contact for APA WG 12:39:14 kirkwood has joined #APA 12:39:28 Mitchell Evan, TPGi, observer today at APA, Accessibility Guidelines WG, WCAG2ICT task force 12:39:52 Jason: co-facilitator Research Questions Task force. 12:40:05 rrsagent, make minutes 12:40:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 12:40:15 JohnRiv has joined #apa 12:40:25 ChrisLorenzo has joined #apa 12:40:34 https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2023#MEIG_.2B_Timed_Text 12:40:38 present+ 12:41:05 https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/95#issuecomment-1580622323 12:41:41 matatk: Agenda includes Media accessibility user requirements update, really interesting thing that came up this morning 12:41:58 ... [goes through the rest of the agenda] 12:42:56 ... 20mn for each of the agenda items for our 2h meeting. 12:43:05 ... For some of them, we have some updates from earlier in the week. 12:43:32 ... Some overlap with other groups, such as ePub and Internationalization, with which we discussed and agreed on things. 12:43:42 subtopic: MAUR update 12:44:02 v1: https://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/ 12:44:10 New repo: https://github.com/w3c/maur/ 12:44:57 janina: We have a new repo. I haven't recently re-read the spec. 12:45:24 ... The old 1.0 is in the repository 12:46:10 matatk: A bit of context. Media Accessibility User Requirements, we changed the URL to be MAUR. When this was originally made, this was referring to a series of user requirements related documents. 12:46:20 ... [mentions the list] 12:46:29 ... MAUR is about 8 years old, so time to update it. 12:46:39 ... You can find the list online. 12:46:49 q? 12:46:50 https://github.com/w3c/apa#important-note 12:46:50 ... This started a real trend. 12:47:10 ... Any thoughts on which part needs to be updated? 12:48:15 janina: Let's do a quick tour. The overall structure. Back in the days, we wanted to figure out requirements for HTML5. 12:48:35 ... From then on, what can you do in the specifications. 12:49:05 ... Relationship with HTML5 was frictional on other topics. Media was an exception. We wrote this document collaboratively. 12:49:50 ... And we got pretty much what we wanted from HTML5. 12:49:50 ... I wrote a lot of this document. 12:50:03 ... The first section describes the needs of people with various disabilities 12:50:14 ... Second part on how these needs could be addressed. 12:50:32 ... Most of this was invented before there was a web. 12:51:02 ... We're not inventing something new, just bringing requirements in the world that the Web has created. 12:51:16 ... Third section is a series of special considerations that seemed relevant at the time. 12:51:45 q+ 12:52:01 ... One of them is support for multiple languages, being able to consume the same sentence again and again in different languages. 12:52:06 q? 12:52:54 ... In a world where there is a lot of movement of human population, language used in the host country may not be the native one. I remember my mom when I was young wishing that she could slow down the news. 12:53:02 ack cpn 12:53:22 q+ to mention we implement time-scale modification, ask about "disability" and what other changes planned? 12:53:54 cpn: W3C has a publishing community. They have a similar set of requirements. Should the future version of this document be an agglomeration of both documents? 12:54:12 janina: That's a very good open question. We'll discuss with them. 12:54:21 ... There may be good reasons to do that. 12:55:10 ack nigel 12:55:10 nigel, you wanted to mention we implement time-scale modification, ask about "disability" and what other changes planned? 12:55:10 matatk: We started to talking with publishing about interlinear text, but progressively about broader topics, and realized that there's alignment needed on a broader set. 12:55:38 s/broader topics, /broader topics, including comics and manga, / 12:55:42 nigel: BBC does implement time-scale modification, at least the first few ones. 12:56:33 ... Summary of accessibility requirements per type of disability. 12:56:43 ... I wonder whether that could be reformulated. 12:57:18 ... There's a common understanding that users have something within themselves that requires specific needs, but barrier of access is largely equally environmental. 12:57:57 ... In terms of change, I would suggest that. 12:58:14 ... I would like to mention synchronization accessibility user requirements. 12:58:28 ... I don't know whether it makes sense to keep them separate. 12:58:31 q? 12:58:37 ... It would be nice to have them in one place. 12:58:47 matatk: Excellent points. 12:59:30 ... Thing we discussed this morning: we had a presentation from Tencent about haptics. 12:59:46 ... Apparently, MPEG is specifying a track for MPEG media. 12:59:56 s/track/haptic track/ 13:00:14 ... Gap between OS level availability and Web level availability. 13:00:27 ... It seems. 13:00:58 q? 13:01:33 nigel: I wouldn't know how that fits in with text description. BBC implementation always exposes captions to Accessibility Tools. 13:01:53 ... When you have video and text descriptions, it's true that they can be considered separate things. 13:02:18 ... What we develop in the Timed Text Working Group is a format that can do both. Render as audio or as text. 13:02:35 ... Or as haptics, possibly. 13:02:37 q? 13:02:44 ... Trying to understand better where the gap is. 13:02:54 matatk: We definitely need to research the rationale. 13:03:06 https://www.mpeg.org/standards/Explorations/40/ ? 13:03:17 s/Accessibility Tools/Assistive Tech 13:03:48 jasonjgw: We've had conversations about multi-level hierarchies of media content and making sure that they are appropriately navigable and usable. 13:03:58 ... Multiple tracks of sign-language interpretation. 13:04:23 ... Need to check current document, perhaps other opportunities to change that will show up. 13:05:27 matatk: Sectioning of content, change of scenes, is also a requirement in common with publishing. 13:05:29 q+ to ask about the timeline of updating the MAUR 13:05:57 janina: We need to be able to do more than add a string, also add markup. 13:06:11 ack nigel 13:06:11 nigel, you wanted to ask about the timeline of updating the MAUR 13:07:01 nigel: I was about to ask about practicalities. Any sense of timeline for updating MAUR? 13:07:09 janina: For this to be useful, if we were pretty much done by next year's TPAC, that would seem reasonable to me. 13:07:17 jasonjgw: That sounds good to me. 13:07:27 q? 13:08:20 nigel: I think it would be useful to promote the fact that you're updating the document and giving a timeline. 13:08:30 ... What about the Note status, is that enough? Should you go further? 13:08:43 janina: I'd love this to go beyond Note. W3C Statement, perhaps? 13:08:50 nigel: We reference these requirements. 13:09:58 matatk: If we did combine with synchronization user requirements, we might have troubles making it normative, because some of these cannot be. 13:10:06 janina: Relatively soon, we could go through the editor's draft and flag places where we feel an update might be needed. Then reach out to other groups. 13:10:12 +1 13:10:28 subtopic: Identified needs for markup in chapter titles 13:11:10 matatk: Those of view who are here in person, there is a flyer about using symbols to make things easier to understand. 13:11:47 ... The challenge with symbols is that different symbol sets could be used. 13:12:05 ... We could apply symbols to particular parts of web pages. 13:12:23 kirkwood has joined #APA 13:12:52 ... They are used across the board. Focusing on the key challenges, people might need symbols to navigate a video. 13:13:25 ... Right now, we cannot use these as chapters in a video and we have a pending request around this. 13:13:43 ... We're going to be asking WHATWG about that. 13:14:00 q+ 13:14:00 q? 13:14:00 janina: And we open that can of worms why not fold into it nested chapters. 13:14:00 ack nigel 13:14:15 nigel: I'm a bit confused about the technical content. 13:14:28 ... Different from choosing a font? 13:14:58 janina: This kind of use of symbol is a long standing feature in accessibility tools. 13:15:48 ... We have a registry spec where we're going to use a key, then the user identifies what symbols they want to see. Numerical value triggers the right symbol to be displayed. 13:16:03 matatk: Why are we not using Unicode is probably your question? 13:16:03 AAC Registry -> https://www.w3.org/TR/aac-registry/ 13:16:22 https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 13:16:29 ... There are reasons that experts raise. There is a dedicated discussion about that. 13:17:28 ... We want to get this right, I encourage you to review these reasons. 13:17:49 ... Assuming that we cannot use Unicode, that's why we need to use markup. 13:18:14 q+ 13:18:20 q+ to say I'm not sure if the TTWG would consider this question in scope 13:18:23 q? 13:18:27 ack cpn 13:18:54 cpn: What you're describing is a general need in HTML markup. Is there a specific media related need? 13:19:33 matatk: The reason for this specific request is that I believe that there are places where you may define video chapters, and that's where we're going to need HTML. 13:20:24 ack nigel 13:20:24 nigel, you wanted to say I'm not sure if the TTWG would consider this question in scope 13:21:16 nigel: It seems the expectation is that, with the video element, people will use track to list chapters. 13:21:40 ... If something is added in HTML, then come back to WebVTT to say "we want this here too, please". 13:22:01 ... Definitely get into HTML first. 13:22:22 matatk: That's our plan. We're not asking you to do it in particular. 13:23:01 ... We wanted to ask if you can nest chapters to skip at different granularity levels. 13:23:21 nigel: I don't know to what extent chapter formats are used in practice, but this makes a lot of sense. 13:24:05 https://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/#contentnav 13:24:05 q? 13:24:05 subtopic: Interlinear publications 13:25:39 matatk: We should consider this one done. 13:25:39 s/sense/sense, and as far as I know there isn't a way to nest navigation units. 13:25:39 ... We just went through it. 13:25:39 I see that WebVTT has nested chapter cues https://www.w3.org/TR/webvtt1/#chapter-cues 13:26:13 I can't work out _how_ that nesting is supposed to work in non-overlapping cues! 13:26:13 "It is further possible to subdivide these intervals into sub-chapters building a navigation tree." 13:27:16 jasonjgw: [scribe missed comment] 13:27:16 s/[scribe missed comment]/There was work going on to replace SMIL in the DPUB world./ 13:27:16 kirkwood has joined #APA 13:27:32 q+ 13:27:45 ... I'm not sure about epub, but DAISY considers older things. 13:27:56 ack nigel 13:27:58 ... Need to check exactly who's interested. 13:28:52 nigel: There was some question about whether their requirements overlapped with requirements with audio descrption. 13:28:52 ... We were hoping they would be the same thing. 13:28:52 ... Turned out they're not. 13:29:31 q? 13:29:45 scribe+ cpn 13:30:58 subtopic: Specialised handling/rendering of embedded media 13:32:12 janina: there are types of media that appear especially in textbooks that won't get accessible handling in a general browser to meet accessibility needs, e.g., MusicXML, e.g., a harmony or music history textbook 13:32:33 [ general reference: Music Notation CG: https://www.w3.org/community/music-notation/2016/05/19/introducing-mnx/ ] 13:32:51 ... playing the sample isn't enough to sample it, you might want the left hand part to be left panned 13:33:19 ... multi-line braille displays are coming 13:33:40 ... we think it's definable, but won't initially be part of browsers 13:33:53 ... Muse Score 4 is a scoring application for music 13:34:04 ... Having a shortcut key that changes the beats per minute 13:34:33 q+ 13:34:33 ... Could be part of a UA that can do this. Music is an example, but there are other applications in other domains 13:34:40 ... TPAC2017 breakout on this 13:34:59 ... People agreed it was very valuable. We'll do it with publishing, not sure how it applies with media 13:35:06 ack me 13:35:10 q? 13:35:10 matatk: Another domain is chemical diagrams in chemistry 13:35:54 ... Some things you'll be able to do in the browser, some with a polyfill, but for the foreseeable future it won't be as good as a native app 13:35:59 q? 13:36:03 ... So how to make the handoff as seamless as possible 13:36:07 q+ after you matatk 13:36:29 ... Our idea is that there's an API you can use in browser extensions to hand over to native apps. It has constraints, but may be usable 13:36:35 q? 13:36:40 ... We could make a prototype to see how well it works 13:36:46 ack nigel 13:37:45 Nigel: On a markup language basis, you need a way to have a way to hand the markup to produce something accessible but not violate privacy principles about not exposing use of assistive technology 13:38:01 s/technology/technology?/ 13:38:13 janina: yes 13:38:53 q? 13:38:57 Nigel: I may struggle to persuade TTWG it's in scope there. You want to take markup and turn it into something that feels like media, we usually go the other way 13:39:43 matatk: it's not just an accessibility thing, these domains may not have as good a rendering in browser than a native tool 13:40:03 johnriv: The existing API? 13:40:20 q+ 13:40:38 matatk: I believe you serialise your thing to JSON to send to the other process, it may be two-way. But it's always a separate process and renders outside the browser 13:40:42 q+ to say that there are architectural parallels with a way to render captions 13:40:47 ... Could be sufficient, but we don't know yet 13:41:00 ack jasonjgw 13:41:28 jasonjgw: One case is very clear where we have an app in the browser that provides the appropriate multimedia rendering for the domain specific content 13:41:41 ... with ePub we discussed making it possible with APIs 13:42:10 s/in the browser that/using WASM in the browser that/ 13:42:13 ... the case of handing it over to an external process, not clear what the UI requirements are, could be a copy/paste operation the user needs to perform, or press a button in a UI to move the material across 13:42:16 rrsagent, make minutes 13:42:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 13:42:45 ... JSON inline in a document, the user has to select it and choose to transfer it somehow 13:43:00 ... UI requirements for that, assuming the tech can make it possible, need work 13:43:18 q? 13:43:20 ... An app in browser context needs to be supported by the assistive technologies, need to capture requirements for those 13:43:21 ack nigel 13:43:21 nigel, you wanted to say that there are architectural parallels with a way to render captions 13:44:00 nigel: there are architectural parallels with other requirements 13:44:04 ... last year I ran a breakout, if you do subtitles or captions the way the browser wants, you can't get data on user customisations 13:44:40 ... So having some trusted mediated actor which can aggregate and anonymise the data and report back 13:44:49 ... to enable product improvement 13:45:15 ... A weird consequence of the requirement to not expose use of assistive tech leads to providers not having better data 13:45:30 janina: It's an interesting point 13:46:05 q? 13:46:41 subtopic: SSML in DAPT and HTML 13:46:55 nigel: this relates to the Spoken HTML spec 13:46:57 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/spoken-html/ Spoken HTML 13:47:15 nigel: It's published by APA WG, last updated 2 years ago 13:47:47 ... when I was working on DAPT i realised it would be nice to have a good way to extend the SSML vocabulary to improve the spoken variant, if used for text to speech 13:48:15 ... I came across this document. It proposed two approaches, not obvious what's adopted. Any plans to continue work on it? 13:48:45 matatk: It has stalled because we don't have enough industry consensus. Our use cases mostly come from educational assessment 13:49:03 ... If broadcasting can use it as well, it would help move it along 13:49:09 s/data on user/data on usage or on user 13:49:30 ... We have a gap analysis, 7 requirements from education partners needed to make it work 13:49:39 ... 4 use cases are critical and we have proposals for them 13:50:02 Pronunciation Gap Analysis and Use Cases -> https://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-gap-analysis-and-use-cases/ 13:50:13 ... We've taken the proposals to other W3C groups for the major platforms, and they see what we're trying to do but don't see a path to implementation that covers all the 4 use cases 13:51:05 ... We're at an impasse, looking for ways ahead. Trying to engage industry, but the big platforms don't see it as in their remit 13:51:38 ... We may now have a proposal we can go ahead with, but we don't know yet 13:52:11 nigel: I would like to align the approach if possible 13:52:32 ... DAPT has two attributes. A pattern we could use is the same as we did with visual styling elements in TTML, took things from CSS and created a new vocabulary and referenced the CSS semantics 13:53:12 ... Painful to maintain and update 13:53:12 ... I haven't entertained adding SSML featues until we have the right markup process 13:53:46 ... If you can help us decide how to do it, it would help us 13:54:09 matatk: Apologies we haven't completed the formal review of DAPT. It looks clear, good examples. We want to make sure we have expert feedback if anything is missed 13:54:14 ... It's a priority for us 13:54:17 Irfan has joined #apa 13:54:25 present+ 13:54:43 nigel: We appreciate your feedback 13:55:05 subtopic: Accessibility of Canvas based TV User Interfaces 13:55:26 s/We appreciate your feedback/We appreciate your thorough review and look forward to receiving your feedback 13:56:39 chrislorenzo: A lot of the TV apps we're building are browser based, but use canvas and WebGL for rendering 13:57:08 ... JavaScript is used to create a node tree for rendering. But we don't have an HTML tree, so how do we provide that UI to accessibility engines 13:57:24 .. We add strings to nodes with alt-text, go through the tree and read it to the end user 13:57:35 ... We could add haptic feedback or sounds at ends of rows 13:58:12 ... Use case is TV devices 13:58:12 matatk: would it support interfacing with a normal keyboard? 13:58:17 q+ 13:58:23 chrislorenzo: yes 13:59:25 q+ 13:59:29 matatk: there are general approaches you can take. depending on the browser, different levels of support, different APIs 14:00:14 ... You're almost writing half a screen reader yourself, handling all the focusing and keyboard interaction 14:00:47 ... You can make it accessible. It's a more limited environment, like a kiosk, it can work. More complicated if you run the same code on a computer that doesn't provide the same information 14:01:12 ... It's not a great UX if you create a screen reader as they don't have their personal settings 14:02:23 ... Test it with people to see if they use it. Libraries like LightningJS are canvas solutions, they make proxy elements behind the scene, which do expose the right accessibility information 14:02:34 ... so users get the AT experience they expect 14:03:16 q- I was going to ask about AOM 14:03:22 q- 14:03:41 ... Another thing which is coming is AOM, which is what you mean. A subset of the DOM that goes to the accessibility tree 14:03:47 ... You can look at it in devtools 14:04:10 ... The a11y tree is a subset of the DOM, so there's a problem if there is no DOM 14:04:33 ... The AOM provide an API to create nodes in the a11y tree as if there were a DOM 14:04:59 ... Something to think about, but it's not near adoption. The two engines implementing are Webkit and Chrome 14:05:31 chrislorenzo: I think you're right, I'd like to be able to build an a11y tree, so AOM seems like what we want 14:05:47 ... We have the same concepts, active elements such as buttons, with properties 14:06:03 ... That would be relatively easy to implement 14:06:30 matatk: It could be possible to write your code so that when AOM becomes available you can use it 14:07:30 ... It's being used in Web Platform Tests to test browser internals now 14:07:30 rrsagent, make minutes 14:07:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Irfan 14:08:07 ... WCAG compliance is a vital benchmark, treat it as a minimum 14:08:10 ... Some developers, without UX guidance, want to provide as much information as possible, to be helpful. But that's not always the right thing to do 14:08:10 q+ 14:09:35 ... I think you're on the right lines 14:09:35 ack jasonjgw 14:09:35 ack jasonjgw 14:09:35 jasonjgw: For 2D canvas we currently have support for associating ARIA roles with the canvas element, but no corresponding support for 3D canvas 14:10:09 ... The only solution is to create hidden HTML elements 14:10:16 ... From a standards point of view, I'm concerned about the TV use cases, but there the OS provides the assistive technologies 14:10:46 q- 14:10:52 ... but if this comes to more general browser environments, suddenly you're deprived of the benefits of HTML 14:11:21 ... We'll need to consider to what extent to recommend HTML or SVG as fallback, that conversation hasn't happened yet 14:11:50 ... AOM, when I last looked, your ability to create your own tree nodes was later in their plan, so probably not implemented 14:12:25 q+ 14:12:32 chrislorenzo: It'll be more of a problem in the future with WebGPU, WASM, especially on TV devices where performance is a concern 14:12:52 nigel: you can create DOM objects in JS, but doesn't address the performance question 14:13:03 q? 14:13:12 ack matatk 14:14:03 matatk: It sounds like the accessibility is the easy part. The hard part is going to the different WGs and explaining the performance issues, but please do 14:14:33 ... we want you to use it across all devices 14:14:37 +1 14:14:47 q? 14:15:06 subtopic: DVB liaison on accessibility signaling 14:15:33 nigel: W3C received a liaison from DVB 14:16:19 ... on signalling and accessibility services. DVB specifies broadcast related technologies for getting audiovisual media to TVs 14:17:12 ... They shared some commercial requirements, and lists of things they want broadcasters to signal - the accessibility components 14:17:58 ... so users can decide if they want to consume that content or match to user preferences 14:17:58 ... Various audio options 14:17:58 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2023Sep/0002.html DVB liaison on member-tt 14:18:19 nigel: they want feedback on the list of accessibility services 14:20:07 ... I introduced CTA to a group in the ITU who are working on a profile exchange format for expressing a user's accessibililty requirements 14:20:07 ... A portable document that expresses the user's needs 14:20:14 ... CTA got in touch with ITU to tell them about a similar document being prepared in CTA 14:20:37 ... It's challenging, as it's sensitive data about the user, and also because it seems difficult to come up with a list of the accessibility services 14:20:44 ... That's where APA could help 14:21:46 ... Also, design an algorithm to match up the user preferences to the available content options 14:22:03 ... Having some cross industry agreement on how an algorithm would work, seems valuable. But needs careful review on how to do that 14:22:36 ... One specific thing that's tricky is, when it comes to a11y services such as alternate audio mixes 14:23:15 ... it's hard to work out, particularly with object based media coming where audio and video objects are combined in the client 14:23:28 ... that's even more difficult 14:23:53 ... Let's coordinate to produce a single W3C response across the groups that received the liaison 14:23:57 q? 14:24:33 janina: We've been considering portable profiles in FAST, trying to enumerate functional needs and build useful profiles 14:24:46 ... and analysing edge technologies, we created an initial inventory 14:25:11 s/analysing edge technologies/analysing edge technologies (a11yEdge CG)/ 14:25:11 ... where there's a similar need for general web content, to avoid users having to reconfigure 14:25:24 ... Make it privacy preserving, use DIDs to do that 14:25:45 ... But you'd be able to match a set of desired features against available content 14:25:50 q? 14:25:53 q+ 14:26:02 ... Would be nice to find out those options before starting playback 14:27:37 matatk: We need to figure out how to respond. I'm pleased the work is going on, and for Nigel's thoughtful analysis 14:27:37 ... Where do we take it to respond? 14:28:15 Francois: Usually groups respond to liaison statements. It's enough for groups agree among themselves 14:28:34 Nigel: Which groups have received it? 14:29:13 Roy: APA, Timed Text, MEIG 14:30:14 matatk: So we'll coordinate, and talk offline 14:30:47 Nigel: Could the Team to take the lead on coordinating? 14:31:55 Francois: Groups can each send their own response. So it makes sense for the team contacts to collect the responses 14:32:31 q? 14:32:35 ... I'll coordinate with the team contacts 14:33:12 jasongw: If object based media is coming to the web, we'll have to look at the capabilities and accessibility requirements 14:33:22 ... I don't have any reference on those object based formats yet 14:33:48 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:33:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Roy 14:35:11 i/harry_: Enhancing haptics for accessibility/scribe+ Irfan/ 14:35:24 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:35:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html Roy 14:37:16 daniel-montalvo has joined #apa 14:58:13 wendyreid has joined #apa 14:58:22 Rachael has joined #apa 14:58:56 tink has joined #apa 14:59:03 spectranaut_ has joined #apa 14:59:04 daniel-montalvo has joined #apa 15:00:53 daniel-montalvo has joined #apa 15:04:49 Roy has joined #apa 15:09:50 topic: Web of Things 15:23:58 ben_tillyer has joined #apa 15:26:10 tidoust has joined #apa 15:26:54 rrsagent, make minutes 15:26:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 15:30:04 Roy has joined #apa 15:30:45 present+ 15:30:47 minyongli has joined #apa 15:30:52 McCool has joined #apa 15:30:58 Mizushima has joined #apa 15:31:00 present+ Michael_McCool 15:31:16 present+ 15:31:20 Ege has joined #apa 15:31:21 rrsagent, make minutes 15:31:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 15:31:34 mahda-noura_ has joined #apa 15:31:37 ktoumura has joined #apa 15:31:50 sebastian has joined #apa 15:31:59 present+ Matthew 15:32:03 dape has joined #apa 15:32:05 present+ mahda-noura 15:32:10 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:32:12 present+ 15:32:13 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura 15:32:16 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 15:32:16 cris_ has joined #apa 15:32:28 present+ Minyong_Li 15:32:29 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 15:32:35 scribe: mahda-noura 15:33:22 aciortea has joined #apa 15:33:30 present+ Daniel_Peintner 15:33:37 present+ Andrei_Ciortea 15:34:47 SalCataldi has joined #apa 15:34:53 kaz has joined #apa 15:35:11 kaz has joined #apa 15:36:08 luca_barbato has joined #apa 15:36:29 scribe+ 15:36:59 present+ Kaz_Ashimura(WoT) 15:37:42 rrsagent, make minutes 15:37:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 15:40:00 zakim, who is on the call? 15:40:00 Present: Irfan, matatk, Roy, Fazio, Janina, CharlesL, AvneeshSingh, harry_, mitch, Chris_Needham, Nigel_Megitt, jasonjgw, tidoust, JohnRiv, Michael_McCool, Matthew, mahda-noura, 15:40:04 ... Tomoaki_Mizushima, Kunihiko_Toumura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Minyong_Li, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Andrei_Ciortea, Kaz_Ashimura(WoT) 15:40:09 dezell has joined #apa 15:40:18 present+ David_Ezell 15:40:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:40:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html kaz 15:41:02 matatk: joint discussion on the collection of use cases 15:41:34 ... there is a TF of APA WG, Research Questions TF 15:42:02 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/226 wot-usecases issue 226 15:42:32 mm: would like to filter out what we really can do 15:42:40 matatk: great 15:42:54 ... accessibility for WoT deliverables 15:43:09 ... would like to see which one is applicable 15:43:32 i|would like|-> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Wot_usecases WoT use cases on APA wiki 15:43:51 matatk: general sort of use cases on climate, etc. 15:44:09 ... compatible with home automation service 15:45:29 q+ 15:45:38 ack matatk 15:45:47 ... another issue is onboarding 15:46:00 mm: we can't constraint UI for apps 15:46:27 q+ 15:46:30 ... would be easier to use if we provide UI for voice, etc. 15:46:43 matak: yes, would be good 15:46:56 ... accessibility consideration section is really good 15:47:15 q+ 15:47:29 ... might not be in scope of mandatory technology 15:47:46 ... people generally rely on their own preferences 15:47:54 ... make devices more helpful to people 15:48:28 ... we have some academic expert as well 15:48:43 ... also have Jason 15:48:45 q? 15:48:48 ack jasonjgw 15:48:57 jason: clarify the scope of the work of WoT 15:49:20 ryuichi has joined #apa 15:49:24 ... involved in the technology work but also involved in accessibility purposes as well 15:49:31 ... we have broad scope 15:49:47 ... what W3C WoT should take into its consideration? 15:50:18 ... there are different audiences 15:50:18 ack sebastian 15:50:21 ... probably larger scope than the original one 15:50:40 seb: would provide some more technical background as well 15:50:49 ... Thing Description is a landing page for various IoT devices 15:51:04 ... should be nice for accessibility purposes 15:51:19 ... the chance to provide semantic interoperability too 15:51:58 ... how to interoperate with each other by following the Thing Description 15:52:15 ... relay on some expectation how to control the device 15:52:22 ... e.g., voice interface 15:52:31 ... should be possible 15:52:49 ... not rely on the device providers but we ourselves 15:53:18 ... if the device providers can provide Thing Description, would allow us to handle the devices in more open manner 15:53:38 ... heavily depends on device vendors, though 15:53:45 q? 15:53:51 ack minyongli 15:53:54 mm: yeah 15:53:58 ack McCool 15:54:13 ... Thing Description is a variation of JSON-LD 15:54:15 q+ 15:54:25 ... so could use RDF to extend the capability 15:54:35 ... separate group could do that 15:54:44 ... SSN can be also applied 15:54:57 ... very interesting ontologies to be attached 15:55:17 ... we don't know what physical capability of each device 15:55:22 ... but could use ontology for that purpose 15:55:39 ... mode of Thing Description currently 15:55:53 ... there is a way to add annotation 15:56:02 q+ 15:56:22 matatk: there is a metadata to be used 15:56:31 ... you can make devices accessible 15:56:52 ... for example, EPUB also could improve accessibility 15:57:37 ... the process mixing the capability 15:57:55 ... it's very aligned with our experts as well 15:58:18 ... getting some way to make the entire mechanism 15:58:48 ... we also got from JSON-LD and RDF viewpoint 15:58:52 ack m 15:58:58 ... accessibility extensions 15:59:00 q? 15:59:11 scribe+ 15:59:23 kaz: WoT TD is metadata to describe devices capabilities 15:59:32 ...Can be combined with any existing accessibility mechanismm 15:59:51 ...I've been working with voice browser and multimodal groups, with Janina and Michael Cooper. 16:00:17 q+ to suggest TD adjustment 16:00:27 ...Lots of opportunities for existing standards to support accessibility use cases. Important for WoT 2.0 charter. 16:00:32 ack k 16:00:34 q+ 16:00:49 ack dezell 16:00:51 dezell, you wanted to suggest TD adjustment 16:01:15 dezell: we talked about door sensor 16:01:26 ... may actually have properties about human interface 16:01:34 ... standard qualification around actions? 16:01:53 ... some of them are controlled outside of human interfaces 16:02:05 q+ 16:02:10 ... door sensor here as an example 16:02:36 ... one of the requirements is preset password 16:02:44 ... candidate for a human interface device 16:02:48 ack cris_ 16:02:54 ca: basic observation 16:03:07 ... use of ontology to link related resources 16:03:18 ... wanted to link the discussion on linting too 16:03:32 ... might be possible for developers to use linter 16:03:39 ... for accessibility as well 16:03:43 q? 16:04:13 kaz: btw, "linter" is a kind of validator or checker :) 16:04:26 matatk: like the idea 16:04:54 ca: related to the mechanism McCool mentioned 16:04:58 q? 16:05:03 mm: thiks similar kind of strategy would work 16:05:12 ... guidelines to follow the profile, etc. 16:05:23 ... using public exposure 16:05:54 ... we could summarize the discussion to move ahead 16:06:13 matatk: accessibility consideration section to be considered 16:06:24 mm: probably should look that closer 16:06:30 ... need more detail? 16:06:49 ... we have ontology or best practices on voice assistants 16:06:59 ... let me ask about detail 16:07:10 ... onboarding 16:07:21 ... we have constraints 16:07:29 ... generally hard to process 16:07:37 ... only suggest best practices 16:07:39 q? 16:07:55 ... very often we have a hub for dashboard 16:08:11 ... could think about accessible dashboard 16:08:23 ... dealing with the context like languages 16:08:33 ... should describe what's needed 16:08:40 ... would like to clarify work items 16:08:52 ... e.g., voice interface with AI 16:09:01 matatk: should switch to that 16:09:15 mm: propose some actions too 16:09:29 matatk: fantastic 16:09:47 mm: regular meeting to be organized 16:10:01 (Janina has just arrived) 16:10:20 subtopic: Applications of LLMs in IoT 16:10:23 mm: talk about voice interface and AI 16:10:31 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html matatk 16:11:10 ... using AI to generate TD 16:11:10 ... we can use documentation for devices 16:11:10 ... MS is interested 16:11:12 ... generate other codes for voice agents as well, e.g., Alexa 16:11:23 ... voice systems connected with IoT devices 16:11:35 ... suitable AI systems on the local side 16:11:50 ... these days voice agents have good quality 16:11:59 ... some technical work needed 16:12:44 ... think it's very promising 16:12:44 q+ 16:12:44 ack mc 16:12:44 ...AIs don't have problem to handle JSON 16:12:54 ... need a few incubation projects 16:12:59 ... can make it better 16:13:11 ... need appropriate information within TD 16:13:27 ... end-user documentation needed 16:13:46 matatk: let me check my understanding 16:14:10 ... very interesting 16:14:16 q+ Janina 16:14:51 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 16:15:07 kaz: Thanks McCool for the info. W3C should work on standards for speech agent implementation (interop between them; how to change the voice and so on). 16:15:28 ... We need the interop work in parallel with this work. 16:15:52 ... There are many components and layers, and each requires more standardization. 16:15:54 q? 16:15:54 q/ 16:15:56 ack k 16:16:18 janina: air flow is terrible sometimes 16:16:31 q+ 16:16:32 ... trying to configure the air conditioner 16:16:37 ack janina 16:16:39 ... need to read the text 16:16:47 ... can talk with that nicely 16:17:18 ... in some reason, can't handle it remotely 16:17:33 ... would like to turn off it or change the temperature 16:17:59 mm: people from manufacturers are working on improvement 16:18:11 ... but the problem is technical expertise required 16:18:21 ... easier set up for smart home purposes needed 16:18:31 ... you can do a lot if you have expertise 16:18:36 ... but not easy now 16:18:48 ... kin of chicken and egg problem 16:18:59 s/kin/kind/ 16:19:01 q+ 16:19:13 ... nice thing is AI could handle complicated part 16:19:22 janina: seems good 16:19:30 mm: yeah 16:19:54 ... the problem to solve is interoerability of devices 16:20:08 matatk: really interesting stuff 16:20:41 ... wanted to relay principles on ethical machine learning 16:20:59 ... shifting the burden 16:21:08 ... auto-generation of YouTube video 16:21:18 ... sometimes good, sometimes dangerous 16:21:40 ... if you rely on the captions, verifying the content is important 16:21:57 ... seems to me generating things would be good 16:22:08 ... and generating TD would be also good 16:22:19 ... but there is a ris 16:22:22 s/ris/risk/ 16:22:36 mm: generating TD could be totally automated 16:22:47 ... we need to think about how to validate it 16:22:57 ... Digital Twins is another viewpoint 16:23:01 q+ 16:23:06 ack me 16:23:17 ... need to investigate problems 16:23:24 ack McCool 16:23:29 ack sebastian 16:23:40 sk: want to add that AI would be helpful 16:23:50 ... may not be much context there 16:24:09 ... AI can be used to handle requests 16:24:24 ... e.g., additional explanation to the users 16:24:30 ... can be also applied to TD 16:24:36 ... to get more information 16:24:57 mm: translation is also good 16:25:04 q? 16:25:16 ... let's wrap-up 16:25:21 ... 1. use cases 16:25:32 ... we're restarting use cases discussion 16:25:44 ... should capture some accessibility use cases 16:26:02 ... regular discussion, maybe once a month 16:26:09 .... requirements arising 16:26:42 ... 2. should discuss exploratory topics 16:26:55 ... there is the WoT-IG in addition to the WoT-WG 16:27:03 ... define a project on ontology 16:27:08 ... should discuss that 16:27:26 ... recruit people who can work on that 16:27:33 matatk: sounds good 16:28:00 janina: sounds right 16:28:19 matatk: tx for coming 16:28:26 ... really good discussion 16:28:34 rrsagent, make log public 16:28:46 ... we love the accessibility consideration section 16:28:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:28:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html kaz 16:29:10 sk: looking forward to proceeding with this direction 16:29:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:29:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html kaz 16:30:18 mm: fyi, we'll have new/commercial use cases session tomorrow at 5:30pm 16:30:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:30:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/14-apa-minutes.html kaz 16:30:28 aciortea has left #apa 16:49:30 matatk has joined #apa 17:00:23 matatk has joined #apa 17:11:21 matatk has joined #apa 17:33:14 matatk has joined #apa 18:41:45 Zakim has left #apa 19:43:14 matatk has joined #apa 21:10:57 matatk has joined #apa 23:11:11 matatk has joined #apa