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06:30:50 <tidoust> Meeting: Design Tokens for Accessibility Settings: Empowering Inclusive Design with CSS
06:30:50 <tidoust> Chair: mpaiva-aem, Fred Edora
06:30:50 <tidoust> Agenda: https://github.com/WeissCenter/w3c-tpac2023-breakouts/blob/main/agenda.md
06:30:50 <tidoust> clear agenda
06:30:50 <tidoust> agenda+ Pick a scribe
06:30:50 <tidoust> agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
06:30:50 <tidoust> agenda+ Goal of this session
06:30:50 <tidoust> agenda+ Discussion
06:30:50 <tidoust> agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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12:13:09 <fred_edora> q?
12:13:14 <fred_edora> qv?
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12:28:17 <alastairc> present+
12:28:19 <alastairc> scribe+
12:28:34 <alastairc> agenda?
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12:28:56 <JohnRochford> present+
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12:30:38 <Fazio> present
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12:32:08 <Marcelo-Paiva> present+
12:32:16 <alastairc> fred_edora: (Reviews session practicalities, does introductions)
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12:32:51 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
12:32:56 <W3C> present+
12:33:33 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: The project is fantastic, including user-research, and creating a truely accessible solution. Not easy as we're reporting on big-data.
12:33:41 <alastairc> ... and we've been aiming for AAA level conformance?
12:33:46 <alastairc> fred_edora: Recording ok?
12:33:50 <alastairc> (not response)
12:34:12 <Fazio> q?
12:35:03 <alastairc> fred_edora: I'm from Ronda Wise (?) center, and we want to make early learning reports accessible.
12:35:16 <alastairc> ... we help States to do this, including document and web accessibility, training etc.
12:35:32 <alastairc> ... the other way is we are developing a new tool for agencies to create report which are accessible from the start.
12:36:09 <alastairc> ... we are open to all 60 educational places, but they have to choose to engage with us.
12:36:23 <alastairc> ... The tool is called 'Adapt', we're slowly releasing that to the public.
12:36:42 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: It is an open source tool, we want to make it available to all states.
12:37:56 <alastairc> ... What we're showing today is not the tool, it is one way we identified to make reports accessible.
12:37:56 <alastairc> ... the problem -
12:37:56 <alastairc> ... we've seen a number of tools and companies trying to make front-end changes to the code (automatically).
12:37:56 <Fazio> q?
12:38:28 <alastairc> ... here we are proposing an ARIA attribute which would make sure the privacy of the user is taken into account.
12:38:28 <alastairc> ... we also want to provide the users with a streamlined access to browser settings.
12:38:40 <alastairc> ... some of our end users (students, parents of), and it's currently intimidating.
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12:39:32 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Target users - web developers who implement the aria-UI attribute.
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12:39:51 <alastairc> ... we then automatically add a web component to the page, and access your settings right from the page.
12:39:58 <atai> present+
12:40:04 <alastairc> ... it is sustained through the browser session.
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12:40:26 <Jaunita-_> Present+
12:40:35 <alastairc> ... the goal for this session is to present the concept and get feedback. It's our first time at TPAC. We've learned a lot, and we want to get feedback and comments.
12:40:46 <alastairc> ... even if this is not a good idea, we'd like to discuss this.
12:40:59 <Fazio> q?
12:41:30 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: So developers would use the aria attribute, then integrate(?) with design tokens.
12:42:01 <alastairc> ... the end users would benefit from accessing the preferences.
12:42:20 <Fazio> q?
12:42:21 <alastairc> ... available on bit.ly/a11y-tokens
12:42:36 <Jaunita-_> Will someone be able to gather stats based on this about users? Could raise not only privacy but legal concerns if so.
12:43:04 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Design tokens is a fundamental concept. It is a way of abstracting the design to variables.
12:43:32 <alastairc> ... For example, a button component could have a primary colour.
12:44:18 <Fazio> q?
12:44:18 <alastairc> ... oh, and we collect all the tokens and put them in a json file, reachable.
12:44:18 <alastairc> ... the button could have other properties, e.g. border.
12:44:30 <alastairc> ... the token applies at the root level, then the button references the token via the var value.
12:44:31 <Fazio> q?
12:45:34 <alastairc> ... (Shows codepen page) Here we have an aria attribute, and if it turn it off the accessibility options disappear.
12:45:52 <alastairc> ... (adds aria-ui = true to the body element)
12:46:17 <alastairc> ... then the user can set the visual accommodation to what they want.
12:46:31 <alastairc> ... can change to dark theme, or other themes.
12:46:41 <alastairc> ... can also set to high contrast
12:46:42 <alastairc> q+
12:46:51 <W3C> q+
12:46:53 <Jaunita-_> Does it always open a menu?
12:46:56 <Fazio> q?
12:46:59 <alastairc> ... nothing novel, but it could represent a better native way to provide access to settings.
12:47:02 <W3C> q+
12:47:24 <Fazio> ack alastairc
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12:47:27 <fred_edora> alastairc: is the option from the browser?
12:47:33 <alastairc> alastairc: Who provides the options?
12:47:47 <W3C> q-
12:48:02 <Jaunita-_> Q+
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12:48:12 <Fazio> ack, alastairc
12:48:20 <DanielHE> present+
12:48:24 <DanielHE> q+
12:48:34 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: If we provide this attribute to access the settings. If the user wants to customise my own accessibility preferences, we give the user control.
12:48:58 <Fazio> ackalastairc
12:48:59 <jamesn> q+
12:49:00 <alastairc> Jaunita-_: Can someone mine this for user info?
12:49:20 <JenStrickland_> present+
12:49:27 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: If the user is settings things in the browser, no one should have access to them.
12:49:37 <alastairc> ... should the website know if I'm looking at 200% magnification?
12:49:41 <JenStrickland_> As someone who has used design tokens, no, there is no way to mine user info from design tokens.
12:50:22 <alastairc> Jaunita-_: If the user's are making these settings, it seems like businesses could pick that up?
12:50:30 <jamesn> q+ to talk about privacy
12:50:41 <alastairc> ack Jaunita-_
12:50:49 <JenStrickland_> q+
12:51:05 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: There are ways for hacking and getting the info, but shouldn't be acceptable.
12:51:31 <alastairc> ... if we have an aria attribute that connects to the browser, that's got to be better than adding JS for an overlay.
12:52:07 <alastairc> DanielHE: I'm from CVS design system, how would this integrate with CSS level 5 media queries that allow for similar settings
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12:52:26 <Jaunita-_> Thanks!!!
12:52:27 <JohnRochford__> q+
12:52:51 <alastairc> ... the draft level 5 media queries has an API to gather the settings from the device which the browser can then gather. How would this intersect with the native tools we have already?
12:53:02 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Going back to the page, talking about the design tokens...
12:53:05 <alastairc> ack DanielHE
12:54:23 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Taking low vision as an example, we could create a set of design tokens to be used in the front end via CSS. If those tokens have a default value, the accessibility widget could take those. If I set line spacing, I could make them regular, tall etc. The user-agent could select from those.
12:54:36 <alastairc> ... it is surfacing the default values and changing them.
12:55:02 <jamesn> q?
12:55:06 <Jaunita-_> Will the menu look different on each page?
12:55:12 <alastairc> DanielHE: We already have some of them in the browser, e.g. dark themes, I just want to make sure, if this is another method, we don't want 3 or 4 different ways of doing it.
12:55:54 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: I agree, the difference is that we're streamlining the access on a web page. If we didn't have this option, the user would have to go into the settings. We're surfacing those values on the web page.
12:55:58 <Jaunita-_> That could be confusing. Also, if I'm hearing right, some might have a11y concerns and some might not if the author controls how it looks
12:56:05 <alastairc> ... similar to overlays, but not over-righting.
12:56:14 <alastairc> ack jamesn
12:56:14 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to talk about privacy
12:56:40 <alastairc> jamesn: For privacy, people could finger-print based on things changed in the presentation.
12:56:50 <alastairc> ... e.g. changing line height
12:57:04 <alastairc> ... there would be privacy concerns to look at.
12:57:20 <alastairc> ... This doesn't seem to fit in with the way aria works.
12:57:42 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Yep, I did expect some feedback on that.
12:57:51 <alastairc> jamesn: Not everything fits in.
12:57:58 <alastairc> q+
12:58:06 <Jaunita-_> Q+
12:58:15 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Want to give powers to developers to help with this.
12:58:44 <DanielHE> I would love to see some research on what disabled people want. From my perspective, leveraging the device and browser settings is the best way to go. Extending more prefers- media queries feels more natural.
12:58:53 <alastairc> JenStrickland_: I want to make sure everyone remembers the first rule of ARIA - don't use it unless you need to.
12:59:21 <JohnRochford__> q+
12:59:46 <DanielHE> I'm concerned this method could encourage less-accessible defaults knowing they can providing "accessible themes"
13:00:01 <alastairc> ... what I'm seeing with your widget is something offered to the public, it doesn't seem to be adding things.
13:00:11 <alastairc> ... can you explain if I've got this wrong?
13:01:00 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Not wrong, we've been experimenting, and the quick way to implement was to give all 50 states the ability to choose how to do it. Doesn't have to be aria-ui, could be accessibility-widget.
13:01:10 <alastairc> ... attending the groups now and get feedback.
13:01:19 <alastairc> ... there are other ways of triggering the widget.
13:01:26 <alastairc> ack JenStrickland_
13:02:20 <alastairc> alastairc: Where does the widget come from?
13:02:46 <alastairc> ack alastairc
13:03:07 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Were thinking of a web-component, see if I can show a simple prototype.
13:03:59 <alastairc> ... so as an independant packed component, the developer would take that package and implement that. It would have the markup, styles and JS for the interactions.
13:04:18 <alastairc> ack JohnRochford__
13:05:12 <alastairc> JohnRochford__: I'm harking back to JenStrickland_  was talking about, and previous discussions with overlays. People with cognitive issues struggle with operating system settings, so widgets can help.
13:05:38 <alastairc> ... but there are already open source ones available. One from Austria was easy to use, and included a lot more.
13:05:46 <alastairc> ... these kinds of tools exist, why do this?
13:06:42 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: We don't want to interfere with the layout.
13:06:57 <alastairc> ... JohnRochford__ "Easy reading .eu"
13:07:02 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Great, I'll take a look
13:07:08 <alastairc> ... but there are a few things we're trying to address.
13:07:26 <JenStrickland_> From Mike Gifford: One open source option https://docs.fluidproject.org/infusion/development/tutorial-userinterfaceoptions/integratinguioptionsstylingpreferences
13:07:29 <alastairc> ... e.g. for low vision users, wanted to adjust layouts, contrast etc.
13:07:58 <alastairc> ... we want to do this is a lean and managable way, without using artificial intelligence or change the layout
13:07:59 <alastairc> q?
13:08:04 <alastairc> ack Jaunita-_
13:08:33 <alastairc> Jaunita-_: If you give developers control, there's a lot of potential to break it. Especially with large companies to break things.
13:08:36 <alastairc> q+
13:08:45 <alastairc> ... sometimes users don't want the widget.
13:08:50 <alastairc> ... questions about mobile etc.
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13:09:12 <alastairc> ... not sure if the utility outweighs the problems?
13:09:26 <mgifford> One open source option https://docs.fluidproject.org/infusion/development/tutorial-userinterfaceoptions/integratinguioptionsstylingpreferences
13:10:17 <mgifford> Also, worth checking out https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ui-options-plus-uio%20/okenndailhmikjjfcnmolpaefecbpaek
13:10:40 <mgifford> https://github.com/fluid-project/uio-plus
13:10:40 <alastairc> alastairc: How are the design tokens used?
13:10:54 <Jaunita-_> Q+
13:11:05 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: There are different ways people use them, sometimes used for CSS pre-processing. But here, we're proposing it is used on the page.
13:11:19 <JenStrickland_> I notice that my comment regarding the first rule of ARIA was not included in the notes: first rule of ARIA is not to use ARIA. I'm reticent to see why we would want to add this as a new ARIA functionality when this type of widget is already added and design tokens are used in lots of ways to style sites. It's a widget - akin to an overlay - that extends browser functionality.
13:11:50 <alastairc> ... the way the design token would change, the single design token is a key value pair, so you can change (e.g.) layout-columns, which is a value of 1-12, and could change to one column.
13:12:07 <alastairc> ... on the client side.
13:12:07 <alastairc> q?
13:12:11 <alastairc> ack alastairc
13:12:15 <alastairc> ack Jaunita-_
13:12:35 <alastairc> Jaunita-_: Does this mean authors have to maintain different versions of the site?
13:12:50 <alastairc> ... and does inconsistencies across the web create issues?
13:13:57 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: The good thing about the web-component approach is that, with the different themes, you can have those sets already in the design token collection. If you can provide a different set.
13:14:22 <alastairc> ... I think we can create a compelling set to help development/design team so they don't have to build it from scratch.
13:14:45 <alastairc> ... there are a lot of people trying to do the same thing.
13:15:09 <alastairc> Jaunita-_: I'm just concerned that they would align it with their own branding, so might not work for the user.
13:15:20 <alastairc> ... might also get some broken content due to differences in coding.
13:15:43 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Yes, there could be issues there.
13:16:12 <alastairc> fred_edora: Our main audiences for this tool are state governments, many don't know what to do for accessibility.
13:16:29 <alastairc> ... we were a bit surprised by how little some know about accessibility.
13:16:44 <alastairc> ... we want to build capasity to help, work out the options on the developer side.
13:17:08 <alastairc> ... there are lots of options out there for this, but we'd like to expose them to alternatives. Talk through privacy concerned etc.
13:17:56 <alastairc> q?
13:17:56 <JenStrickland_> q+
13:17:56 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: Ok, so that's what we wanted to present, the link is onscreen (or above in the minutes).
13:18:01 <JenStrickland_> Q-
13:18:23 <alastairc> ... feedback welcome, we'll report progress and get all-around feedback from users, developers and W3C community.
13:18:45 <alastairc> fred_edora: We are doing user-research sessions, anyone can jump into those, please get in touch.
13:19:32 <alastairc> ... very interested in the lived-experience.
13:19:32 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: I'll drop the link on that page as well.
13:19:58 <alastairc> Jaunita-_: Has this caused confusion for authors? Sometimes they think they've done everything by ticking this box.
13:20:08 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: We're about to start testing on that.
13:20:31 <alastairc> ... we'll see if we can build the proof of concept in a respectful manner.
13:21:05 <alastairc> fred_edora: It's not just about the tool, it's also about the cultural shift, the maturity model session earlier was also very useful.
13:21:14 <alastairc> ... from the Gov side that's where we want to come in.
13:22:42 <JenStrickland_> The USWDS is in the process of adding tokens and web components.
13:22:51 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: We're leveraging the US design system, which mgifford used as well. They have the design tokens in the pre-processing level, but not client level. So that's a contribution we are making to the design system.
13:23:11 <JenStrickland_> q+
13:23:15 <alastairc> mgifford: Very few support even basic dark-mode. the view form Gov has been to meet WCAG, one-website approach.
13:23:27 <alastairc> ... any personalisation has been an extra.
13:23:33 <alastairc> ack JenStrickland_
13:24:08 <alastairc> JenStrickland_: I'd disagree with Mike, but maybe it's different organisations. Some have provided things, making sure not to over-ride user settings.
13:24:42 <alastairc> ... I'm seeing a lot of that work happening. There is one I'm trying to remember that has done a lot of good work.
13:24:53 <alastairc> ... but, agree that the states often lack that awareness.
13:25:05 <mgifford> JenStrickland_ please let us know if you find that design system.
13:25:13 <alastairc> ... they also tend to lack the accessibility awareness.
13:25:31 <alastairc> ... unfortunately I can't share it.
13:25:44 <mgifford> Jen, can't a link just fall out of the back of a truck or whatever the digital metaphor is?
13:26:15 <mgifford> Just adding a link for Jen for the digital response https://www.usdigitalresponse.org/
13:26:16 <alastairc> JenStrickland_: I'm still not sure how much it differs from an overlay?
13:26:47 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: We're using native CSS custom properties, we're not changing the front-end.
13:27:07 <fred_edora> Link for Weiss Center user research studies, if interested:  https://forms.office.com/r/0qubViMB0Z
13:27:14 <alastairc> ... we have control of the layout, so will create design tokens to help change the layout without identifying what's wrong. It's ground up.
13:27:23 <mgifford> I do have a list of government design systems here but haven't reviewed them lately to check for dark mode support https://accessibility.civicactions.com/guide/design
13:27:54 <alastairc> fred_edora: I've put a link to the research studies if anyone is interested?
13:28:42 <alastairc> fred_edora: The centre of inclusive design is one of our partners, but we're currently trying to recruit people for this.
13:28:54 <alastairc> Marcelo-Paiva: What we're proposing is a very small thing compared to the rest of the project.
13:29:15 <alastairc> ... we're making sure we test with PWD from day 1.
13:29:52 <alastairc> ... we're collecting all of this knowledge, which can be provided to our stakeholders. It's beyond the tool, it's spreading the knowledge.
13:30:10 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:30:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-inclusive-design-tokens-minutes.html alastairc
13:30:14 <JenStrickland_> Keep an eye on the USWDS monthly calls -- the agencies contributing components and tokens participate there.
13:30:42 <fred_edora> https://weissta.org
13:31:45 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:31:53 <alastairc> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:31:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-inclusive-design-tokens-minutes.html alastairc
13:36:31 <fred_edora> end this meeting
13:37:09 <alastairc> zakim, end meeting
13:37:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been alastairc, JohnRochford, Jean-Yves, Marcelo-Paiva, Jennie_Delisi, W3C, atai, Jaunita-_, DanielHE, JenStrickland_
13:37:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:37:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/13-inclusive-design-tokens-minutes.html Zakim
13:37:51 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, alastairc; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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16:22:04 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
16:22:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items