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07:29:20 <spectranaut_> RRSAgent, bye
07:29:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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07:30:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-aria-irc
07:30:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
07:30:13 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut_
07:30:34 <spectranaut_> meeting: ARIA F2F
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07:30:48 <spectranaut_> chair: ValerieYoung
07:31:11 <spectranaut_> TOPIC: Interactive Lists Overview status and next steps
07:31:24 <spectranaut_> issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2036
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07:35:28 <daniel-montalvo> Present+ Daniel
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07:36:53 <jamesn> https://github.com/FabasoftAccessibility/InteractiveLists/blob/main/README.md
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07:37:14 <Marcelo_Paiva> present+
07:37:49 <melsumner> scribe+
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07:39:33 <melsumner> Marcelo_Paiva: yesterday we talked about list views and dashboards and cards. I think we could get a new role for this
07:41:16 <melsumner> Marcelo_Paiva: the lists have different features in different view types; for example in Windows file explorer and in MacOS finder, there are different ways to view different types of lists
07:41:16 <Marcelo_Paiva> @melsumner correction on the speaker: Mario instead of Marcelo
07:41:35 <melsumner> apologies, will fix
07:42:49 <melsumner> Mario: we have to change the display type of the role now and that's not useful/good
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07:43:19 <melsumner> Mario: so Sarah and Stefan have suggested listview as a complex role
07:43:24 <StefanS> present+
07:44:24 <jamesn> q+ to ask what roles these listView items have for the native versions?
07:45:07 <melsumner> Mario: in the listview there are different child roles: listeviewitem, group (to group listviewitems) and featureheaders, a container for featureheads for detailed views
07:45:44 <melsumner> Mario: there are also different proposed listview attributes
07:45:52 <StefanS> q+
07:46:21 <melsumner> Mario: and the next steps are to think about filters (how can they be semantically connected to a list view)
07:46:34 <melsumner> Mario: and keyboard navigation
07:46:48 <melsumner> sarah_higley: clarifying question: what are featureheads
07:47:05 <melsumner> Mario: labels for features that are mostly displayed in details but could be used in other view types
07:47:19 <melsumner> Mario: same as columnheaders
07:47:42 <melsumner> sarah_higley: I dropped my thoughts in the issue (issue number...)
07:48:44 <melsumner> sarah_higley: my thought was that these kinds of lists would be more like grids, more complex widgets to allow navigation inside and around the widget
07:49:15 <Matt_King> q=
07:49:22 <Matt_King> fq+
07:49:36 <Matt_King> q+
07:49:41 <melsumner> sarah_higley: 2-dimensional vs 3-dimensional ?
07:50:25 <jamesn> qv?
07:51:02 <melsumner> sarah_higley: open questions: should there be a specific listview type? do we need to have that?
07:51:30 <melsumner> sarah_higley: platform accessibility mapping is also an open question but native apps already do this
07:51:45 <melsumner> sarah_higley: should selection be allowed but then how do we differentiate from listbox
07:52:04 <spectranaut_> q?
07:52:18 <melsumner> sarah_higley: should this be a different role or inferred from how it's being used
07:53:13 <melsumner> jamesn: I think it should support selection
07:53:14 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
07:53:14 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to ask what roles these listView items have for the native versions?
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07:53:54 <Mu-An> q?
07:54:00 <melsumner> jamesn: if we don't support selection it would cause problems, most use cases need to support selection
07:54:21 <melsumner> jamesn: how we differentiate from listbox ....naming will be important
07:54:22 <sarah_higley> q+
07:54:53 <melsumner> jamesn: will this thing be supported within a combobox? I say no but it's possible someone will think to try it
07:55:30 <melsumner> StefanS: I've shared my screen, I think everything that Mario said is good
07:56:00 <melsumner> StefanS: (demonstrates some UIA)
07:56:28 <melsumner> jamesn: can you share a screenshot here?
07:56:40 <melsumner> StefanS: I don't know how to do that but I will do some homework and share it later
07:57:27 <melsumner> StefanS: from what I'm showing, there is continuous numbering
07:57:42 <Mu-An> q+ to say clarifications on definition on 2-dimension interactive list, for example- github issue list view
07:59:54 <jamesn> q?
08:00:42 <melsumner> StefanS: we can switch from a "grid like" view to an icon view and there are no more rows; and Microsoft has been doing this for a very long time and no one is confused
08:01:27 <melsumner> StefanS: looking at a tile-based layout, showing that users can navigate left/right, up/down in and around the tile group
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08:03:59 <melsumner> StefanS: a listview model would help improve situations where we have nested interactives in listitems
08:04:00 <spectranaut_> ack StefanS
08:04:23 <melsumner> Matt_King: I'll keep it short and write longer thoughts in the issue.
08:05:23 <melsumner> Matt_King: it's great that there seems to be a lot of need for this but there are some places where we need some clarification
08:05:23 <melsumner> Matt_King: listbox has a value; listview would not have a value, that's one way to easily distinguish
08:05:23 <melsumner> Matt_King: a listview doesn't really have anything like it in HTML today
08:06:06 <melsumner> Matt_King: we should be careful to avoid making listview into a gridview but I don't think that part is complicated
08:06:16 <melsumner> Matt_King: do we really need a listview type? I think this is a fundamental question
08:06:57 <melsumner> Matt_King: if we have the browser automatically calculate set size, position in set, they need to know how many there are. but does it need to?
08:07:23 <StefanS> q+
08:08:07 <melsumner> Matt_King: SR users probably don't care what's in the listview so I don't think we need to worry about what the content is. That's up to the author
08:08:25 <melsumner> Mario: disagree
08:09:19 <melsumner> Matt_King: if you have cards, no matter what's in them or what size they are, the navigation should not change.
08:09:32 <melsumner> Mario: the role should stay listview (in windows)
08:09:57 <melsumner> Matt_King: in ARIA the role should not stay listview, it should be gridview for something like windows explorer details view
08:10:12 <jamesn> qv?
08:10:17 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
08:10:25 <melsumner> Matt_King: a grid is a grid and a listview is a listview and we gotta be careful and not cause chaos
08:10:34 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
08:10:34 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
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08:10:53 <melsumner> sarah_higley: 2 things
08:11:15 <Marcelo_Paiva> q+ to agree with Matt King that navigation of a listview should not change, as we need to consider responsive viewports changes from desktop to mobile
08:11:22 <melsumner> sarah_higley: to the point where folks might use listview for selections in stead of listbox I wonder if this will be a good thing because the current state of things...kinda sucks
08:12:44 <melsumner> sarah_higley: 2-dimensional thing: we should not support column headers on a list view and I agree with Matt King that there's a difference between the gridview and the listview
08:12:55 <StefanS> q+
08:13:02 <jamesn> qv?
08:13:09 <jamesn> ack sarah_higley
08:13:21 <melsumner> sarah_higley: I don't think we should be taking the list control type in Windows and bringing it forward because that's not even how Microsoft is bringing it forward
08:13:46 <melsumner> sarah_higley: the list-grid hybrid does not exist and (shouldn't?)
08:14:29 <melsumner> sarah_higley: so sharing that context so we can all understand it
08:14:47 <jamesn> ack Mu-An
08:14:47 <Zakim> Mu-An, you wanted to say clarifications on definition on 2-dimension interactive list, for example- github issue list view
08:15:00 <melsumner> Mu-An: the grid vs the listview seems confusing to me
08:15:25 <melsumner> Mu-An: I'd love to see an example for how these are supposed to be used so I could better understand what this should look like
08:15:44 <melsumner> Mu-An: I'm also confused about the featureheaders and features? Wouldn't this make them column-like?
08:16:11 <melsumner> Mario: if we stay with grid for details list, then we don't need any feature roles, that's clear
08:16:40 <melsumner> jamesn: next steps will be in the 1.4 prioritization session
08:16:54 <spectranaut_> ack StefanS
08:17:02 <spectranaut_> zakim, open the queue
08:17:03 <Zakim> ok, spectranaut_, the speaker queue is open
08:17:17 <spectranaut_> TOPIC: Relationship with ATs, and update on ARIA-AT results
08:17:47 <daniel-montalvo> Rrsagent, draft minutes
08:17:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-aria-minutes.html daniel-montalvo
08:18:36 <spectranaut_> to join remote: https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/
08:18:51 <spectranaut_> this one: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f43a9c66-0084-40f2-a3a4-20631c7f8488/
08:23:57 <jocelyntran> scribe+
08:24:29 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: i want to show examples of test and show an overview of where the project is
08:24:29 <jocelyntran> ... we're looking at a staging server, on the aria AT website
08:25:05 <jocelyntran> ... developing interoperability testing for screen readers, current focus on jaws, nvda on desktop
08:25:18 <jocelyntran> ... get to voiceover and talkback by end of this year
08:26:22 <jocelyntran> ... the project has 2 buckets of work. 1. is writing the tests and manually running them. 2. how will we keep the report for those tests current whenever a new screenreader is released. we're developing AT driver. we would be able to use to drive screen readers in the browser context
08:26:39 <jocelyntran> ... automate the work with the drivers
08:26:58 <jocelyntran> ... if test results are different, the driver can flag humans for review
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08:27:49 <jocelyntran> ... here's a table of tests. this is for voiceover in a radiogroup
08:28:42 <jocelyntran> ... these are fairly granular tests.
08:29:21 <jocelyntran> ... we test with different commands.
08:31:44 <jocelyntran> ...I want to give a brief overview of this table for our process. similar to w3c spec process.
08:32:24 <jocelyntran> ... we draft a test plan. and members of our wpt group can write and review these.
08:33:43 <jocelyntran> ... once we have buy in from our screen readers, we go ahead. we're testing all patterns in the apg. so there are 35 plans in this table.
08:33:43 <jocelyntran> ... this is how we're managing the data.
08:34:47 <jocelyntran> ... we're in a big state of change. we have changes coming out for the app. and we're refactoring how we are writing tests. we're incorporating feedback. made some simplifications and improvements ot eh way we write tests. it coming out over the next couple of weeks.
08:34:54 <daniel-montalvo> q+
08:36:35 <jocelyntran> ... the specific proposal I have is. we were talking about aria notifications yesterday. there would be a prototype. we would put a copy of that prototype in the repository for these tests. we would figure out how testable it is. we want to define minimum AT behavior. we don't have to have something in the apg to have it in the test cases here. we should have functional examples.
08:36:54 <jocelyntran> ... stylized as experimental
08:37:01 <spectranaut_> q?
08:37:38 <jocelyntran> jemma: 2 questions: 1. what is r and d version mean?
08:37:45 <jocelyntran> Matt_King:  the version of the test plan that has been written but not reviewed.
08:38:18 <jocelyntran> ... if we get feedback in candidate review, we would develop a new version. and that new version number would show up in the r and d column.
08:39:33 <jocelyntran> jemma: 2. driver is for new aria features, aria-notify, etc. how are we gonna figure out the testing for newer features?
08:39:47 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: we would submit the new examples for the community group.
08:39:55 <spectranaut_> queue+ kevin
08:40:00 <spectranaut_> ack daniel-montalvo
08:40:05 <jocelyntran> daniel-montalvo: congrats on the work you're doing. I appreciate it.
08:40:43 <jocelyntran> ... feedback from screen reader vendors -- is that trackable?
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08:40:43 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: yes its in the aria at repo. they provide feedback by raising a github issue.
08:40:43 <Jem> present+
08:41:16 <lola_> present+
08:42:19 <jocelyntran> ??: thanks Matt_King for getting the process going. its been a positive process so far.
08:42:19 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
08:42:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-aria-minutes.html Jem
08:42:26 <spectranaut_> s/??/steve faulkner/
08:42:26 <StefanS> q+
08:42:26 <spectranaut_> ack keithamus
08:42:26 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: one of our challenges right now, nv access does not have the resources to keep up with this.
08:42:26 <spectranaut_> ack kev
08:42:26 <spectranaut_> ack kevin
08:43:30 <Jem> q?
08:43:30 <jocelyntran> StefanS: question: where do these labels come from?
08:43:30 <jocelyntran> steve faulkner: though testing, i file a bug, and that gets pulled into the internal bug tracker
08:43:56 <jocelyntran> ... through this effort we are getting more activity.
08:44:08 <jocelyntran> StefanS: this process should be automated somehow
08:44:25 <lola_> q+
08:45:05 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: you could have one small bug in radiobutton for example. just one bug was causing multiple test failures. but someone like steve can see that it was one bug that caused all this issue.
08:45:08 <jocelyntran> ... hard to automate how to find/report the bug
08:45:12 <spectranaut_> ack StefanS
08:45:25 <spectranaut_> ack lola_
08:45:51 <jocelyntran> lola: wednesday, i'll be giving a presentation on the at driver
08:45:56 <jocelyntran> ... you're welcome to join
08:46:28 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: when we have a new proposal, like aria-notify, you want an example implementation?
08:46:39 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: yes, and we will be asking questions to get the tests written
08:47:24 <spectranaut_> q?
08:47:33 <jocelyntran> ... the sooner we can do think about the tests, we can make sure the new feature has its intended effects
08:48:23 <jocelyntran> jemma: these test results are going to be a part of the apg page?
08:49:01 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: we wouldn't surface this on the patterns page. the test results would show the support level but people aren't used to checking that. these are unreleased features, they wouldn't show on the patterns page
08:49:34 <jocelyntran> jamesn: and these features should be marked as experimental right?
08:49:37 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: correct.
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09:30:26 <spectranaut_> TOPIC: 1.4 Prioritization
09:30:38 <spectranaut_> issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1884
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09:37:39 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
09:37:43 <jamesn> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/48
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09:40:02 <jcraig> jamesn: I've created an ARIA 1.4 project that everyone should have access to
09:40:24 <jcraig> all the issues in the 1.4 milestone... all 149 is obvs unrealistic
09:40:45 <jcraig> I closed 24 of this in triage on the plane
09:40:55 <jcraig> there are probably more we can close
09:41:17 <jamesn> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/48/views/1?groupedBy%5BcolumnId%5D=Assignees&filterQuery=-status%3ADone+-label%3Afeature+
09:41:30 <jcraig> this groups the issue by assignee
09:42:00 <jcraig> action for all: look through your assigned. verify you agree with the assignment, labels, etc.
09:42:29 <Jem> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/48
09:43:17 <jcraig> currently 40 or 50 unassigned non features
09:43:17 <jcraig> should any of these be features?
09:44:20 <jcraig> for example, can we close the role-parity issue for inputs... did we ever agree that these should be reserved native?
09:45:06 <jamesn> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/48/views/1?groupedBy%5BcolumnId%5D=Assignees&filterQuery=-status%3ADone+-label%3Afeature+
09:46:45 <jcraig> jcraig: the html input type ones may be address by an HTML-AAM open Issue/PR
09:46:45 <jcraig> StefanS: can we close ones that are no longer relevant?
09:47:37 <jcraig> jamesn: would like to keep open until the testing mapping is done
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09:48:19 <Jem> jcraig: May be Scott have PR for role partity issues.
09:48:25 <jcraig> s/keep open/keep the html form element issues open/
09:49:18 <jcraig> jamesn: so everyone please review your assigned issues and suggest keywords, priority, milestone, or other paths forward, etc.
09:49:58 <jcraig> * group discussion about the github view *
09:50:04 <jamesn> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/48/views/1?filterQuery=-status%3ADone+-label%3Afeature+
09:50:17 <jcraig> jamesn: this is the link without the assignee grouping
09:50:37 <jcraig> 90 issues
09:52:08 <jcraig> assignees, if you're not planning to work on this in the next year, unassign yourself
09:52:39 <jcraig> this is not the priority list for 1.4... this is jut the triage list.
09:53:05 <jamesn> ### Major Features
09:53:05 <jamesn> * aria-actions
09:53:05 <jamesn> * listview?
09:53:05 <jamesn> * notifications (not ARIA but will require re-work of ARIA implementation)
09:53:05 <jamesn> * data Visuzalization?
09:53:05 <jamesn> * Label Synonyms
09:53:05 <jamesn> * Virtualization
09:53:05 <jamesn> * "interactions"
09:53:06 <jamesn>   - 4-way picker
09:53:06 <jamesn>   - direct interactions
09:53:06 <jamesn>   - sub-element click target
09:53:06 <jcraig> there are 34 I identified as features..... We will not go through all today...
09:53:39 <jcraig> but these are the major features
09:54:21 <jcraig> Jem: does this mean including implementation?
09:54:21 <jcraig> jamesn: yes, everything that it takes to get it into the spec
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09:55:42 <jcraig> aleventhal: + deprecatable issues, like aria-relevant
09:57:47 <jcraig> jcraig: aria-actions?
09:57:50 <jcraig> group: yes
09:58:03 <jcraig> jamesn: aria-actions?
09:58:52 <jcraig> jamesn: listviews?
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09:59:20 <jcraig> group: yes
09:59:50 <spectranaut_> link for listviews: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2036
10:01:00 <jcraig> jamesn: notifications... incubator
10:01:05 <jcraig> group: yes
10:01:35 <jcraig> jamesn: dataviz? I want this... not convinced it's 1.4
10:01:51 <jcraig> jcraig: agree it's too soon to say 1.4
10:02:09 <jcraig> aleventhal: this is a separate subgroup incubator, right?
10:02:28 <jcraig> jamesn: 2024 investigaiton? 2025 feature?
10:02:39 <jcraig> group: yes, sure
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10:03:24 <jcraig> possible moving aria from Rec track to Evergreen
10:03:42 <jcraig> snap shot every 2 years or so
10:04:35 <jcraig> features go in to the spec only when ready, complete, and implemented
10:08:49 <melsumne_> q+ to say we could consider adopting stages
10:08:54 <jcraig> aleventhal: it's more difficult to implement from a PR than from an editors draft
10:08:54 <jcraig> q?
10:08:54 <jcraig> can take years to get ARIA features all the way through AT implementation
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10:10:42 <jcraig> jcraig: could work as long as there is a viewable spec with experimental issues?
10:12:31 <jcraig> a/aleventhal:/aaronlev:/g
10:13:13 <jcraig> aaronlev: might be unrealistic to say "it's supported" in the browser until you can verify it works in most AT
10:13:25 <jcraig> Matt_King: need more engagement from AT vendors
10:14:05 <jcraig> jamesn: label synonyms
10:14:11 <jcraig> q+
10:14:27 <jamesn> ack me
10:14:30 <jcraig> ack melsumner
10:14:38 <jcraig> ack melsumner
10:14:42 <jcraig> ack me
10:14:48 <jcraig> ack mel
10:14:48 <Zakim> melsumne_, you wanted to say we could consider adopting stages
10:14:51 <jcraig> q+
10:15:52 <jcraig> melsumner: stage 0 would be proposal stage... implementation is stage 1... etc. Recommendation at the end
10:15:55 <jcraig> ack me
10:19:27 <jcraig> jcraig: label synonyms needed for Voice Control... not sure if Dragon or Windows dictation has similar, presumablly yes but we need two implementations... so 2025?
10:19:50 <jcraig> jamesn: virtualization?
10:20:35 <jcraig> group: 2025.... notificaitons is higher priority, and testability is a prerequisite
10:21:26 <jcraig> jamesn: 4-way picker... e.g. 2D slider
10:22:10 <jcraig> Matt_King: needs API for 2D slider... should punt
10:22:35 <jcraig> jamesn: punted... would we ever do it?
10:23:14 <jcraig> jamesn: put the 2.0 flag on it.... e.g. "not soon"
10:24:01 <Jem> two dimensional slider issue at apg https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2742
10:24:12 <jcraig> direct interaction?
10:25:43 <jcraig> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P056zcubhxQ
10:25:54 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1215
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10:27:07 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/746 is the other "similar" issue
10:27:20 <jcraig> aria-directinput: [ undefined | direct ]
10:29:27 <jcraig> Matt_King: signal to AT to handle this...
10:32:27 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/788
10:32:31 <jcraig> aaronlev: worried about prioritzing b/c Windows AT don't yet need this
10:32:38 <jamesn> q?
10:32:59 <jcraig> Marcelo_Paiva: Are there aria gestures?
10:33:05 <jcraig> jamesn: no
10:33:17 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/788
10:33:29 <jcraig> e.g. aria-hitpoint
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10:39:37 <jcraig> discussion of issues explained in https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/788
10:41:13 <jcraig> 2025
10:41:31 <jcraig> jamesn: any other priorities
10:42:08 <jcraig> aaronlev: aria-hidden fixes?
10:42:21 <jcraig> jamesn: only counting larger features
10:43:08 <jcraig> Matt_King: what the the bigger version of aria-modal?
10:43:26 <jcraig> jcraig: how is this different from aria-modal?
10:44:20 <jcraig> aaronlev: this is about keeping focus in aria-modal
10:44:37 <jcraig> jcraig: that's how VO implements aria-modal today.
10:46:28 <jcraig> jamesn: would others helping out keep this on the 2024 priority list?
10:46:42 <jcraig> aaronlev: other implmentors
10:55:45 <jcraig> jcraig: what about dev tools warnings as a spec feature?
10:56:31 <jcraig> jamesn: that's mostly editorial... not a user feature
10:56:48 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1480
11:03:33 <spectranaut_> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:03:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-aria-minutes.html spectranaut_
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12:37:06 <jcraig> Slides... https://www.icloud.com/keynote/09dCEDKVwnUk_nhjBrkArTIcg#WebVTTMetadata_public
12:38:02 <jcraig> disregard
12:42:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
14:00:24 <jcraig> s/icloud.com/example.com/
14:00:49 <jcraig> s/09dCEDKVwnUk_nhjBrkArTIcg#WebVTTMetadata_public/#/
14:01:17 <jcraig> s/keynote/disregard/
14:01:28 <jcraig> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:01:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-aria-minutes.html jcraig
14:01:50 <jcraig> s/disregard/disregard. wrong channel./
14:01:52 <jcraig> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/09/12-aria-minutes.html jcraig
14:03:10 <jcraig> s/aleventhal/aaronlev/g
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15:00:58 <alisonmaher> present+
15:07:27 <spectranaut_> zakim, end meeting
15:07:49 <spectranaut_> if you want to join the aria notification api meeting with apa join the apa chat and meeting from w3c
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15:12:20 <benb> present+
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