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16:56:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:56:33 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:56:34 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:56:45 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:56:45 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:56:46 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230831T130000/
16:56:46 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:56:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5bbj7suc
16:56:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4scc4dmk
16:56:48 <agendabot> agenda+ -> What labels does the ARIA WG want to use for WPT search results? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2008
16:56:51 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Valid use cases and patterns for aria-roledescription beyond 1.3 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2004
16:56:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996
16:56:57 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Clarification on aria-braillelabel SHOULD vs. MUST guidelines https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1995
16:57:00 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider creation of a fieldsize/maxlength property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1119
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17:04:26 <StefanS> present+
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17:04:35 <melsumner> present+
17:04:38 <pkra> present+
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17:04:53 <Rahim> present+
17:04:54 <benb> present+
17:04:58 <spectranaut_> present+
17:05:00 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:05:09 <thinkbulecount2> present+
17:05:10 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:05:10 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5bbj7suc -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:21 <Doug> Doug has joined #aria
17:05:22 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2024
17:05:57 <jcraig> bryan: role=group missing.
17:06:23 <jcraig> jamesn: scott added a comment, can it be dealt it in GH or do we need agenda+
17:06:53 <jcraig> added... may resolve before then
17:06:55 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/190
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17:07:16 <scotto> present+
17:07:16 <jcraig> core-aam grid mappings
17:07:43 <jcraig> spectranaut_: I will update the mapping to reflect current browser behavior
17:07:47 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2021
17:08:15 <jcraig> spectranaut_: i'll review the issue
17:08:35 <jcraig> pkra: needs a definition tweak re: hierarchy
17:08:38 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2016
17:09:02 <jcraig> pkra: this came out of the other hierarchy PR. assign to me
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17:09:11 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2014
17:09:39 <jcraig> pkra: similar hierarchy issue. I'll take it...
17:10:04 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/189
17:11:06 <jcraig> jamesn: core-aam aria-haspopup=true
17:11:21 <jcraig> spectranaut_: I'll work with the new contributor on this one
17:11:28 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2013
17:11:46 <jcraig> jamesn: open question.. agenda+
17:11:54 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2012
17:12:36 <jcraig> WPT-raised spec issue. agenda+
17:13:39 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2011
17:13:44 <jcraig> jcraig: okay to close
17:13:49 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 2
17:13:49 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4scc4dmk -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:12 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:14:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5bbj7suc -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:16 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:14:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, jcraig
17:14:24 <jcraig> zakim, close item 1
17:14:24 <Zakim> agendum 1, -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/5bbj7suc, closed
17:14:25 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:14:25 <Zakim> 2. -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4scc4dmk [from agendabot]
17:14:30 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:14:30 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4scc4dmk -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:18 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2023
17:15:22 <jcraig> Editorial: add `<menu>` to `list` role
17:15:43 <jcraig> jamesn: scott and mel to review
17:15:57 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/199
17:16:04 <jcraig> Issue198 - examples missing content
17:16:25 <jcraig> s/scott and mel to review/scott, mel, and rahim to review/
17:16:44 <jcraig> pkra: editorial
17:17:12 <jcraig> PR is a respec workaround
17:17:37 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2022
17:18:04 <jcraig> StefanS: editorial. ready for review.
17:18:39 <jcraig> jamesn: scotto and matt to review
17:18:52 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2015
17:19:02 <jcraig> "Updated instances of contradiction regarding focus management"
17:20:46 <jcraig> scotto: might as well review this one.. too I guess
17:21:25 <jcraig> jamesn: jcraig to review this one too.
17:21:46 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/188
17:21:58 <jcraig> "Fix AX API aria-haspopup mappings"
17:22:14 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:22:14 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> What labels does the ARIA WG want to use for WPT search results? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2008 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:08 <spectranaut_> scribe+
17:24:01 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we have 586 tests now \o/
17:24:28 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we have some tags "accessibility", "a11y", directories have labels
17:24:52 <spectranaut_> jcraig: maybe we should have a live version of "can I use"
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17:25:23 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if there was a problem with part of the accname algorithm, we could have a specific tag for that area
17:26:25 <spectranaut_> jcraig: for now, since we are limited to role and label, we might not have a lot to label
17:26:42 <spectranaut_> jcraig: but we have some proposals for additions to webdriver/future testability
17:26:54 <jamesn> q+
17:26:54 <spectranaut_> jcraig: so what labels would you all like?
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17:27:27 <melsumner> plus one to adding labels by spec
17:27:27 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I think this all go back to how we imagine having something linked from the spec
17:27:46 <spectranaut_> jamesn: for example, this is all related to ...
17:28:25 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we do have a separate generic roles file, if we want to have per role, we need to break up the tests into separate tests
17:28:38 <scotto> q+
17:28:42 <spectranaut_> jcraig: tests can have multiple label, but they can only be applied at the folder or file level
17:28:48 <spectranaut_> jcraig: not the subtest level
17:29:08 <spectranaut_> jamesn: the only place it really makes sense to link from aria is at the role level
17:29:59 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we add stuff to it all the time, we didn't have css pseudo element stuff in all the browsers when we added it to accname
17:30:50 <spectranaut_> jcraig: what if we start by link the accname name computation to the tests?
17:31:09 <spectranaut_> jamesn: you know what would be useful, would be a way for repec to generate these links?
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17:32:02 <spectranaut_> jcraig: ok we can file a respec issue, but its not a per spec basis, its more about parts of the spec
17:32:16 <spectranaut_> jamesn to file an issue against respec
17:32:26 <spectranaut_> jamesn: we don't have to had to hard code the links ourselves
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17:32:50 <Jaunita_George> Present+
17:33:02 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I'm going to protoype how we want this to look, and we can put the code in our aria libraries
17:33:10 <spectranaut_> jamesn: and after we have something working I will file an issue
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17:33:34 <jamesn> q?
17:33:38 <jamesn> ack me
17:33:48 <jamesn> qv?
17:37:31 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:38:19 <spectranaut_> scotto: I was going to ask about as I understood, do we want to split out individual roles for testing... I initially thought that was a good idea, and automated checkers would be interested in, we could show that aria-expanded had rubbish support, and then we could show the support was never there
17:38:38 <spectranaut_> scotto: a particular attribute might be useful on one role, but it is not actually properly implemented on another
17:39:04 <spectranaut_> scotto: seems like we should split out by role and test features by role
17:39:19 <spectranaut_> jcraig: obviously I didn't anticipate having a per role label
17:39:42 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I'll take an issue to double check that I can't do a label per subtest...
17:39:55 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if it is then we wouldnt need to split up those files, otherwise, we can split them up
17:40:13 <spectranaut_> scotto: if that ends up being the case maybe I can help split up the tests.. since I suggested it....
17:40:21 <spectranaut_> jcraig: just do the html ones O:-)
17:40:39 <spectranaut_> jcraig: more complicated roles already have their own file
17:41:08 <Rahim> q+
17:41:09 <spectranaut_> jcraig: it doesn't matter if the tabgroup role doesn't work if the tab doesn't work, so come grouping does make sense
17:41:17 <jamesn> ack Rahim
17:41:22 <spectranaut_> Rahim: I wanted to ask about the invalid role tests
17:41:28 <jamesn> agenda?
17:41:43 <spectranaut_> Rahim: there is a utility function called "assignandverfiyrolebyrolename"
17:42:10 <Matt_King> present+
17:42:14 <spectranaut_> (scribe stopped minuting because its sort of technical/specific)
17:42:22 <spectranaut_> (to test writing utilites)
17:43:01 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:43:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Valid use cases and patterns for aria-roledescription beyond 1.3 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2004 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:43:32 <spectranaut_> jamesn: maybe we should take a look at the PR right now, with the group
17:43:40 <spectranaut_> jamesn: pr aria 2022
17:44:01 <spectranaut_> jamesn: this is adding a single line
17:44:27 <spectranaut_> jamesn: with in aria-roledescription properties
17:44:38 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:45:00 <jcraig> we need to agree on this path forward if we are to do this
17:45:50 <jcraig> StefanS: implementations can be misused to mask the base role.
17:45:56 <Matt_King> q+
17:46:13 <jcraig> author doesn't usually localize the base role string
17:46:41 <Matt_King> q?
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17:46:52 <jcraig> second reason, as soon as one AT decides to speak the base role, there is redundancy
17:46:57 <jamesn> q+
17:47:01 <jcraig> e.g "button button"
17:47:29 <jcraig> Matt_King: i think this is an author misunderstanding of role description
17:47:39 <scotto> +1
17:48:25 <scotto> q+
17:48:34 <jcraig> purpose is for the times when the base role is not an adequate description of the element... (e.g. "pie slice" in the EDU)
17:49:38 <jcraig> StefanS: users are confused when authors misuse role-description
17:49:48 <jcraig> Matt_King: why not just use the label
17:49:52 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:50:16 <jamesn> ack jamesn
17:50:21 <jcraig> Matt_King: if AT announces the base role, it breaks the purpose of role description
17:50:25 <jcraig> q+
17:50:35 <Jaunita_George> q+
17:51:19 <jcraig> jamesn: on the fence. would be okay if there was an option in AT settings to always announce the base role on widgets or interactives
17:51:31 <jcraig> no reason to say "slide, region"
17:51:58 <melsumner>  roledescription is meant to provide improved information, I don't agree that users should have access to it, and I think it would make the UX more confusing
17:52:07 <jcraig> StefanS: calendar example based on grid... "calendar" is insufficient to convey the use of a grid.
17:52:31 <jcraig> Matt_King: these are great examples where the author should not use role desc
17:52:55 <jcraig> Matt_King: I need to re-prioritize the APG section on role desc
17:53:00 <spectranaut_> q?
17:53:07 <spectranaut_> q+ mario
17:53:29 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:53:43 <jcraig> if this is the opinion of the group (that role desc should never be used on grid) it's unclear
17:53:51 <jcraig> matt: not "never"
17:54:06 <jcraig> scotto: storngly agree that these are all author errors
17:54:20 <jcraig> s/storngly/strongly/
17:54:21 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:54:23 <pkra> q+
17:54:23 <jcraig> ack me
17:54:31 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
17:54:31 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
17:55:39 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this is another example of a powerful tool that is useful and necessary, but also some tools are dangerous, like power tools -- dangerous is misuse -- in this case, if the author misuses the tool, the the user gets hurt. but if we could strongly recommend that AT always uses the base role, it would break the good uses of aria-roledescription
17:55:56 <StefanS> q+
17:55:59 <spectranaut_> jcraig: these are all great examples of author errors, I don't think there is a spec issue
17:56:14 <spectranaut_> jcraig: as far as recommending an option for AT.... maybe an "AT may..."?
17:56:17 <Matt_King> q+
17:56:47 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we have had the ability for native apps to overwrite role description for voiceover
17:56:54 <jamesn> qv?
17:56:56 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if they do it wrong we reach out to them to correct it
17:57:21 <jamesn> ack Jaunita_George
17:57:27 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:57:38 <jcraig> Jaunita_George: need AAPG examples
17:57:43 <StefanS> q+
17:57:59 <jcraig> Matt_King: have 3 uses, but I will comment in the PR
17:58:01 <jamesn> ack mario
17:58:19 <jcraig> ack mario
17:58:39 <StefanS> q+
17:59:05 <jcraig> mario: loca is an issue... usability is the other... If you've overriden the functionality queue (e.g. button is clickable), the use is confused
17:59:08 <jamesn> ack pkra
17:59:08 <jcraig> ack pkra
17:59:19 <jcraig> s/loca/loc/
17:59:31 <jcraig> pkra: should we add another warning?
17:59:57 <scotto> agree with adding a warning.  maybe even specifically call out the localization effort that would fall on authors, too
17:59:58 <jcraig> the name is confusing to authors... warning may help
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18:00:20 <scotto> aria-toxic=you
18:00:27 <melsumner> TBH if we are going to warn users that this aria- could go wrong we should start adding it to other things ;)
18:00:29 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:00:38 <BGaraventa> Example of aria-roledescription as requested: https://whatsock.com/Templates/Carousels/Slideshow/index.htm
18:01:08 <jcraig> zakim, please part
18:01:08 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been StefanS, melsumner, pkra, Rahim, benb, spectranaut_, thinkbulecount, scotto, Jaunita_George, Matt_King, Francis_Storr
18:01:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:01:17 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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18:03:30 <jcraig> s/AAPG/APG/
18:04:59 <jcraig> s/as far as recommending an option for AT.... maybe an "AT may..."?/as far as recommending an option for AT.... maybe an "AT may..."? but I think we may have removed all those. can't remember/
18:07:33 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/31-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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