16:51:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:52:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/17-aria-irc
16:52:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:52:33 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:52:33 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:52:33 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:52:33 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230817T130000/
16:52:33 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:52:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/2nzvdsmj
16:52:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/5n6vuck2
16:52:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT
16:52:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> TPAC 2023 https://tinyurl.com/f2fcandidate
16:52:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957
16:55:41 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
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17:02:23 <spectranaut_> present+
17:02:36 <pkra_> present+
17:02:39 <Adam_Page> present+
17:03:04 <spectranaut_> chair: spectranaut_
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17:03:42 <jamesn> zakim, pick a victim
17:03:42 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose spectranaut_
17:04:08 <jocelyntran> scribe:jocelyn
17:04:18 <jocelyntran> scribe: jocelyntran
17:04:21 <StefanS> present+
17:04:29 <jamesn> present+
17:05:25 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:05:28 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:05:32 <scotto> present+
17:05:44 <jocelyntran> zakum, next item
17:05:49 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
17:05:57 <jocelyntran> zakim, next item
17:05:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, jocelyntran
17:06:43 <Francis_Storr> here you go: W3C IRC cheat sheet: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017AprJun/att-1007/W3C_IRC_Cheat_Sheet.pdf
17:06:48 <scotto> present+
17:06:55 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/main/documentation/onboarding.md
17:07:16 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
17:07:25 <myasonik> present+
17:08:15 <Doug> Doug has joined #aria
17:08:19 <StefanS> Agenda?
17:09:44 <CurtBellew> present+
17:11:46 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1995
17:12:44 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: clarification aria braille label
17:12:58 <jocelyntran> ??: first one should be a must instead of should
17:13:27 <pkra_> q+
17:13:29 <spectranaut_> s/??/jcraig/
17:14:11 <jocelyntran> jcraig: couldnt come up with an example where you would want a braille label and not a label
17:14:28 <spectranaut_> ack pkra_
17:14:48 <myasonik> q+
17:15:47 <spectranaut_> ack myasonik
17:16:10 <jocelyntran> myasonik: aria live wont announce to braille readers
17:16:40 <jocelyntran> jcraig: lets not jump to a conclusion on this issue
17:16:53 <myasonik> q-
17:16:58 <jocelyntran> ... they didn't make it a must to begin with
17:17:29 <jocelyntran> .. if aria live isn't announced that is a bug
17:17:30 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:17:37 <Matt_King> present+
17:18:24 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: change this to amust and change it to a link to accessible name?
17:18:42 <scotto> +1 to fix aria-live support for braille (move forward with the notification api) rather than create a loophole for inserting what should be a live announcement into a braille label
17:18:53 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/55
17:19:48 <spectranaut_> respec bug: https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/198
17:19:50 <Rahim> present+
17:19:51 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: next issue, examples missing content
17:19:58 <jocelyntran> jamesn: want to talk about this in editors meeting
17:20:20 <jocelyntran> ... we shouldn't hide the examples
17:20:22 <scotto> +1 to removing the details/summary
17:20:32 <Adam_Page> ditto
17:21:22 <jocelyntran> zakim, next item
17:21:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/5n6vuck2 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:21:51 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996
17:22:07 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: first issue, aria controls spec update
17:22:37 <jocelyntran> scotto: aria-controls should cycle through controlled elements
17:22:54 <jocelyntran> ... this was prompted by nvda
17:24:12 <jocelyntran> scotto: ... additional logic needs to be spec'ed out
17:24:43 <jocelyntran> ... this pr will add more context to what will be helpful, additional functionally with AT or browser
17:27:33 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/498
17:27:46 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: next issume, add mention of image role
17:30:47 <jocelyntran> zakim, next item
17:30:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:32:05 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: recruit more reviewers?
17:32:44 <jocelyntran> jamesn: why are these wpt-chrome-dev-stability tests that fail?
17:32:50 <jocelyntran> jcraig: not sure
17:33:43 <jocelyntran> ??: one common test error: duplicate test names
17:34:35 <spectranaut_> s/??/Rahim/
17:34:54 <jocelyntran> zakim, next item
17:34:54 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> TPAC 2023 https://tinyurl.com/f2fcandidate -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:48 <jocelyntran> jamesn: there are 20+ issues
17:36:16 <jocelyntran> StefanS: many of these are circling around uncertainty
17:36:55 <jocelyntran> jamesn: need more description for these issues
17:37:14 <jocelyntran> ... be prepared to introduce them and drive the discussion
17:38:11 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: need to prioritize these issues, some of these can be topics in our regular meetings
17:38:36 <jocelyntran> ... members who are attending should comment on these issues
17:39:59 <jocelyntran> StefanS: "validator runs punishing devs", this issue is most important for the devs at my company
17:40:13 <jocelyntran> .. you have a label thats not distinguishable from other labels
17:40:35 <jamesn> q+
17:40:37 <jcraig> q+
17:41:23 <jcraig> q+ to disagree. I think this is an author error and the validators are correct to flag this every time.
17:41:49 <jcraig> q+ Matt_King
17:41:52 <spectranaut_> q+ Matt_King
17:42:01 <jocelyntran> jamesn: can you make sure you file them against the right spec
17:42:32 <jamesn> ack me
17:42:40 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:42:40 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to disagree. I think this is an author error and the validators are correct to flag this every time.
17:42:49 <jocelyntran> jcraig: this is a wcag issue
17:43:42 <spectranaut_> discussing: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1997
17:44:19 <jcraig> s/this is a wcag issue/agree with jamesn that, if this is an issue (not sure it is), then this is a wcag issue/
17:45:20 <jcraig> q+ to request a more objective issue name too
17:46:03 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:46:43 <jcraig> q+ to suggest ~"unique link names may not be necessary in tables" when you move it to the WCAG repo... "validator punishment" isn't as useful or clear.
17:47:26 <jcraig> ack me
17:47:26 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to request a more objective issue name too and to suggest ~"unique link names may not be necessary in tables" when you move it to the WCAG repo... "validator
17:47:29 <Zakim> ... punishment" isn't as useful or clear.
17:48:26 <jocelyntran> zakim, next issue
17:48:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next issue', jocelyntran
17:48:29 <jocelyntran> zakim, next item
17:48:29 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:48:54 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1958#discussioncomment-6223785
17:49:09 <jocelyntran> spectranaut_: does notification api need to support "labels"
17:49:27 <jocelyntran> Doug: the goal of aria notify: provide quick strings to give to user
17:49:36 <jocelyntran> ... no context for that string
17:50:28 <jocelyntran> ... give screen reader context for what this label is for
17:50:55 <jocelyntran> .. do we want to provide guidance or "must"s for this
17:51:17 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: activity id seems like a good name to me
17:51:26 <jcraig> q+
17:51:38 <jocelyntran> "label" is confusing, doesn't explain the concept well
17:52:03 <jocelyntran> jcraig: "activities" are a different thing in voiceover btw
17:52:18 <jocelyntran> ... "id" implies uniqueness
17:52:49 <jocelyntran> ... maybe "type"
17:53:59 <jocelyntran> ... "on Google docs, I want to supress these kinds of ids" -- is this what we want
17:54:00 <jcraig> or notification context
17:54:35 <jocelyntran> Doug: provide users ui that show all strings, allow users to filter these strings
17:54:55 <jcraig> s/"on Go/"on Windos is is expected a user would have granular control over a per-domain or sub-site? e.g. on Go/
17:57:26 <jocelyntran> Doug: ... let the user select what they want to hear for something like "bold on/bold off", either blip sounds or the speech itself
17:58:11 <jocelyntran> jcraig: would like to see a demo with this potentially
17:58:59 <jocelyntran> Matt_King: i rarely dive into this type of customization
17:59:19 <jocelyntran> ... on the implementation side, i think the author would come up with the tokens
17:59:36 <pkra_> have to run. bye everyone
17:59:56 <jcraig> q+
18:00:47 <jocelyntran> jcraig: modern mobile OS don't offer this level of granularity for apps
18:01:39 <jocelyntran> ... if you go to the app, you can control the granularity of the notifications
18:02:08 <jocelyntran> ... similarly, granular selection should be on the web app
18:02:26 <jocelyntran> ... not on the screen reader side
18:03:14 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
18:03:21 <jocelyntran> zakim, end meeting
18:03:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been spectranaut_, pkra_, Adam_Page, StefanS, jamesn, Francis_Storr, scotto, myasonik, CurtBellew, Matt_King, Rahim
18:03:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:03:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/17-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:03:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jocelyntran; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:03:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:05:14 <jcraig> s/modern mobile OS don't offer this level of granularity for apps/modern mobile OS don't offer this level of granularity for apps. this onus for this level of granularity is on the app's business logic... used Uber as an example: I want pickup notifications, but not marketing notifications. that level of per-app granularity should be in app settings, not in the AT, especially because the UI would need to be reengineering in every AT on the
18:05:14 <jcraig> system./
18:05:45 <jocelyntran> rrsagent, generate minutes
18:05:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/17-aria-minutes.html jocelyntran
18:05:54 <jcraig> s/jcraig: modern mobile OS don't offer this level of granularity for apps/jcraig: modern mobile OS don't offer this level of granularity for apps. this onus for this level of granularity is on the app's business logic... used Uber as an example: I want pickup notifications, but not marketing notifications. that level of per-app granularity should be in app settings, not in the AT/
18:06:11 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/17-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:06:55 <jcraig> s/not in the AT/not in the AT… especially because the UI would need to be reengineered in every AT on the system/
18:07:02 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/17-aria-minutes.html jcraig