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16:58:50 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-irc
16:58:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:51 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:58:58 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:02 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:02 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:54 <StefanS_> StefanS_ has joined #aria
17:00:06 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2023Aug/0002.html
17:00:06 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:06 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/yn67frsz)
17:00:06 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/2tn2hnky)
17:00:06 <agendabot> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
17:00:07 <agendabot> agenda+ [Volunteers for ARIA test writing?](https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2023-accessibility-testing/issues)
17:00:10 <agendabot> agenda+ [Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957)
17:00:13 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/))
17:00:28 <jamesn> zakimm drop item 6
17:00:30 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
17:00:31 <StefanS_> present+
17:00:33 <jamesn> zakim drop item 6
17:00:38 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 6
17:00:38 <Zakim> agendum 6, [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/)), dropped
17:01:57 <siri> siri has joined #aria
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17:02:25 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
17:02:44 <jcraig> zakim, choose a victim
17:02:44 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Daniel
17:03:06 <scotto_> scotto_ has joined #aria
17:03:07 <dmontalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
17:03:16 <melsumner> present+
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17:03:37 <Matt_King> present+
17:03:43 <scotto_> present+
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17:04:36 <jamesn> present+
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17:05:05 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:05:05 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/yn67frsz) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:47 <dmontalvo> Valerie: First issue is deprecate rather than remove aria-expanded for static roles
17:11:25 <dmontalvo> JN: He's concerned that we are making ARIA backwards incompatible
17:12:24 <jcraig> q+
17:12:33 <dmontalvo> ... I have some sympathy. We generally don't deprecate things that don't work
17:12:39 <Matt_King> q+
17:12:52 <Matt_King> q-
17:12:56 <dmontalvo> ... He watns to talk about this at TPAC with ACT
17:13:03 <spectranaut_> q?
17:13:44 <dmontalvo> JC: I can see why checkers don't want to throw errors for things that were valid
17:14:09 <melsumner> I don't mind adding a deprecated flag. As a tooling author this is useful.
17:14:29 <dmontalvo> ... Maybe there is a middle ground, maybe we don't need to force checkers to throw errors, we could do with warnings
17:14:40 <scotto_> q+
17:14:42 <melsumner> I should say, I don't object to the addition of a deprecated flag, as a tooling author this would be useful.
17:14:51 <dmontalvo> JN: We can add messaging that these were removed in version xx, like other specs do
17:15:19 <dmontalvo> JC: And then have an RFC line "checkers may ..."
17:15:28 <dmontalvo> JN: RTeasonable thing to chat about at TPAC
17:15:38 <cyns> +1 to "checkers may... "
17:15:38 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Will add F2F candidate
17:15:48 <dmontalvo> JC: What's the difference?
17:16:04 <dmontalvo> JN: Originally we had both, now we onlyuse F2F candidate
17:16:07 <spectranaut_> q?
17:16:10 <jcraig> ack me
17:16:13 <spectranaut_> ack scotto_
17:16:28 <jamesn> q+
17:16:37 <dmontalvo> Scott: It's weird to have to deprecate an error in the spec
17:16:48 <dmontalvo> ... This was published already
17:17:06 <jamesn> ack me
17:17:06 <dmontalvo> ... Are we adding a Note to 1.2 or this is adone issue and this is how the process needs to go forward
17:17:23 <dmontalvo> JN: Agree with you, I don't think we shouldd go back on this one, but this is whatwe need to discuss at TPAC
17:18:11 <dmontalvo> ... Maybe we learn a better way forward for future cases for including clearer messages
17:18:41 <dmontalvo> Scott: But this is an error, this is why it was changed
17:19:06 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Second issue: Make aria-braillelable and aria-description prohibited on non-generic
17:19:57 <dmontalvo> Matt: I have on my ToDo list to go through all roles where this is happening, I wonder if we need to raise a separate issue
17:20:32 <dmontalvo> JN: That wouldn't be too hard, I would treat aria-describedby and aria-description separately
17:21:00 <dmontalvo> Matt: Everywhere aria-braillelabel is prohibited, aria-label should be prohibited too
17:21:37 <dmontalvo> JC: Is it only label from author or this can also be label from content?
17:21:55 <dmontalvo> JN: I'll be working on this
17:21:59 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:21:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/2tn2hnky) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:22:40 <dmontalvo> Valerie: This removes things from the terms list. I requested a bunch of reviewers
17:22:54 <jcraig> q+
17:22:58 <jcraig> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/41309
17:23:09 <dmontalvo> ... Follow-up from our F2F discussion. IF you are interested in this, please take a look
17:23:12 <Doug> Doug has joined #aria
17:23:44 <dmontalvo> JC: Is there a way to tag them so that when people post PRs on WPT repositories this gets flagged?
17:24:15 <dmontalvo> JN: Are we sure we always label this? I could query these on my script if there is a label
17:24:31 <dmontalvo> JC: I'm working with the WPT team to have a label that applies to all directories
17:24:54 <dmontalvo> JN: Give me a list of labels. We can put an agenda item with a link for people to see those easier
17:25:21 <dmontalvo> JC: Anyone wanting to work on WPT?
17:25:49 <dmontalvo> Melanie and Scott say they want to work on these
17:25:49 <jcraig> ack me
17:25:53 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:25:53 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:26:34 <dmontalvo> Valerie: We had Deep Dive today on ARIA Modal
17:26:47 <dmontalvo> ... Another is rethinkg how hidden is aria-hidden
17:26:59 <dmontalvo> ... Anything else on these topics?
17:27:09 <dmontalvo> Matt: We didn't really address aria-hidden this morning
17:27:22 <dmontalvo> Scott: That'd be another good topic sometime later
17:27:59 <dmontalvo> Aron: We can discuss further how to better solve these problems from a browser's perspective
17:28:31 <dmontalvo> ... A few issues are already raised
17:28:42 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Can you find those and link them here?
17:28:50 <dmontalvo> Aron: yes
17:29:47 <dmontalvo> Valerie: The other item is Windows Mac differences in presentational roles
17:29:58 <dmontalvo> JC: I prefer to do that after TPAC
17:30:15 <dmontalvo> Siri: Is there a palce where we can look at the Deep Dive minutes?
17:30:23 <spectranaut_> minutes for previous meetings: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes
17:30:37 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:30:37 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Volunteers for ARIA test writing?](https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2023-accessibility-testing/issues) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:31:13 <dmontalvo> Valerie: We have the ability to write some test for AccName
17:31:26 <dmontalvo> ... The documentation written by James Craig is in the ARIa folder
17:31:30 <aaronlev> I put the links in the ARIA issue
17:31:32 <dmontalvo> [[link]]
17:31:34 <Adam_Page> https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/main/documentation/wpt.md
17:31:44 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Writing tests is a way to get familiar with the specification
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17:33:29 <dmontalvo> JC: These tests are simple. Just a bit of HTML with the role. Then they has a class and a call to JavaScript
17:33:41 <dmontalvo> ... Those who know ARIA and HTML can write them easily
17:34:29 <dmontalvo> JC: Every test is able to find new bugs in browsers, so these are becoming very useful
17:34:49 <dmontalvo> ... Running the tests is traightforward
17:35:19 <dmontalvo> ... We are wanting to look for volunteers that we can assign tasks to
17:36:19 <dmontalvo> Rahim: Happy to do that. How do we test across browsers?
17:36:46 <dmontalvo> JC: Chrome Canary, Safari Dev Preview, and Firefox Nightly
17:37:03 <dmontalvo> MArio: Is it possible for blind people to write tests?
17:37:23 <dmontalvo> JC: Yes, you have to be familiar with command line scroll back
17:37:35 <dmontalvo> ... We do have documentation
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17:38:46 <dmontalvo> ... We can actually update the documentation
17:39:59 <dmontalvo> JC: I have Melanie, Rahim, and Mario. If you have a particular one that you are interested in, just pick it up
17:40:06 <dmontalvo> Rahim: I can do the widget role
17:41:18 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:41:26 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:41:26 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:45 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1958#discussioncomment-6223691
17:42:10 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Explain identify guidance for required and expected screen reader interaction
17:42:30 <dmontalvo> Dug: I just ported this to wai-ig
17:42:48 <dmontalvo> ... WE were talkking about the expectations for screen reader users
17:43:01 <dmontalvo> ... Live regions are implementeed differently
17:43:15 <dmontalvo> ... Even non-mandatory, I think it would be good to have some guidance
17:43:27 <dmontalvo> s/Even non/Even if non/
17:44:29 <dmontalvo> Matt: What's the path here? Are you looking for some place where we can put screen reader expectations? It sounds like it does not belong in the spec API
17:44:47 <dmontalvo> Dug: Not sure, worth keeping consistent with past ARIA habits
17:45:01 <dmontalvo> Matt: It's not clearw to me where the notification specification is going? Not part of ARIA, right?
17:45:21 <dmontalvo> Dug: Yes, I don't think this has to have the ARIA tag
17:45:55 <dmontalvo> Dug: At a minimum, it would be referenced in the ARIA live regions section
17:46:17 <dmontalvo> Matt: Not sure if deprecation is the right thing
17:46:47 <dmontalvo> JN: Certainly we don't need to deprecate all of the live regions stuff, but at least point people to what is nowadays been done with live regions
17:47:13 <dmontalvo> Mario: The definition of live regions is good. Why we cannot just make sure people do what we say should be done?
17:48:10 <dmontalvo> Matt: There a reliability issue, there are so many way these can be coded when it comes to modifying the DOM. Not all of these work consistently.
17:48:25 <dmontalvo> ... That is an implementation issue
17:48:47 <dmontalvo> ... There could probably be room in ARIA to provide guidance as to how screen readers should implement this
17:49:08 <dmontalvo> Dug: I could propose my interpretation ofwhat I believe screen readers should do
17:49:39 <cyns> 1+ to clear expectations for screen-reader interoperability
17:49:42 <dmontalvo> Mat: I think screen reader expectation need to be really clear, this is a good opportunity for us to get rid of the unnecessary variations in notifications
17:50:26 <dmontalvo> ... Question of wher e that belongs we can decide later
17:50:44 <dmontalvo> Dug: Youwould change it to requirements
17:50:56 <spectranaut_> q?
17:51:10 <dmontalvo> Matt: Yes, that's an opportunity to move forwads in interoperability
17:51:24 <jamesn> regrets+ CurtBellew
17:51:42 <dmontalvo> MArio: ARIA specification does not define screen reader requirements
17:52:18 <dmontalvo> Cyn: I don't think there is other places for this type of guidance
17:52:37 <dmontalvo> Matt: This goes back to a F2F discussion we had, where we decided we do want to have some guidance
17:53:14 <dmontalvo> Siri: Are you saying the current API has issues? How is this different with what we have now?
17:53:51 <dmontalvo> Doug: One of the problem is that the current implementation is spotty
17:54:08 <dmontalvo> ... IF the text is on the screen is one thing, if it is not on the screen is another thing
17:54:29 <dmontalvo> ... They do not necessarily know when the AT has acted on it, not sure then when they could remove it from the DOM
17:54:46 <dmontalvo> ... The goal is to say to the WebApp when there is a string and when they need to speak it
17:55:14 <dmontalvo> Siri: Screen reader has to read from the DOM irrespective of whether it's on screen
17:55:34 <melsumner> q+
17:55:36 <dmontalvo> Doug: I don't think live regions where originally designed for what they'are being used now
17:56:02 <spectranaut_> q?
17:56:03 <dmontalvo> ... It's difficult to make screen readers aware of the notifications
17:56:57 <dmontalvo> Melanie: aria-live is already annoying as a user
17:57:21 <dmontalvo> ... When I am reviewing author's code most of the times they are using it in places where it's not designed for
17:57:38 <dmontalvo> Doug: This is to make it easier for authors to implement these things
17:57:58 <dmontalvo> ... And educate them on when they should and should not do this
17:58:25 <dmontalvo> Matt: From APG perspective there is little we c an say because there is no consistency
17:58:41 <Adam_Page> present+
17:58:46 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
17:58:58 <dmontalvo> s/Dug/Doug:/g
17:59:12 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
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18:05:08 <jcraig> s/Is it only label from author or this can also be label from content?/Are there any aria scenarios that allow nameFrom: values that do NOT include nameFrom: author? I can't think of any offhand, but if there are, we may not want to prohibit aria-braillelabel in the exact same scenarios as aria-label. [No response. Will address as a bug if we discover a problem later.]/
18:05:19 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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20:24:06 <spectranaut_> zakim, end meeting
20:24:06 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been StefanS_, Daniel, melsumner, Matt_King, scotto_, jamesn, Adam_Page
20:24:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:24:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/08/03-aria-minutes.html Zakim
20:24:14 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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