IRC log of rdf-star on 2023-07-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:53:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-irc
15:54:10 [ktk]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230727T120000/
15:54:10 [agendabot]
clear agenda
15:54:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe)
15:54:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:54:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ Update on Semantic TF (unless Enrico sends regerets)
15:54:11 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:54:14 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:54:17 [agendabot]
agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:54:25 [ktk]
Chair: ktk
15:54:34 [ktk]
Regret+ Ora
15:54:45 [ktk]
Zakim, draft minutes
15:54:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'draft minutes', ktk
15:55:58 [ktk]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
15:56:06 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:56:21 [gkellogg_]
gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
15:56:44 [ktk]
start meeting
15:57:58 [gkellogg]
gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:58:19 [ktk]
RRSAgent, make minutes public
15:58:19 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ktk. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:58:29 [ktk]
Zakim, make minutes public
15:58:30 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes public', ktk
15:59:03 [ktk]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:59:39 [ktk]
regrets+ gwilliams
15:59:52 [ktk]
regrets+ nlindström
16:00:04 [ktk]
regrets+ pchampin
16:00:09 [ktk]
regrets+ ttp
16:00:24 [gkellogg]
s/nlindström/niklasl/
16:00:50 [AndyS]
present+
16:00:54 [ktk]
present+
16:01:01 [gkellogg]
present+
16:01:18 [gkellogg]
scribe+ gkellogg
16:01:58 [gkellogg]
zakim, next agendum
16:01:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:02:07 [gkellogg]
zakim, close item 1
16:02:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Scribe: Haudebourg, Timothée (alternate: Arndt, Dörthe), closed
16:02:09 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:02:09 [Zakim]
2. Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:02:21 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:02:29 [TallTed]
present+
16:02:29 [gkellogg]
zakim, open item 2
16:02:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:02:31 [pfps]
present+
16:02:44 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:02:56 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:05:08 [gkellogg]
AndyS: Perhaps we can get updates from task forces?
16:05:18 [Souri_]
Souri_ has joined #rdf-star
16:05:31 [gkellogg]
ktk: We don't have enough people present to approve minutes this week.
16:05:34 [Souri_]
present+
16:05:42 [gkellogg]
zakim, next agendum
16:05:42 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Update on Semantic TF (unless Enrico sends regerets) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:17 [gkellogg]
pfps: We're having informal meetings with minimal logging in the semantics TF.
16:06:39 [gkellogg]
... There are a number of semantic proposals, and Enrico has an outline of how to characterize them.
16:06:56 [gkellogg]
... They're in the rdf-star-wg repository, but unofficial.
16:07:17 [gkellogg]
... The semantics TF is waiting for decisions on which use cases will be supported, so we know how they should behave.
16:07:39 [gkellogg]
... The default is that the semantics would be have in away consistent with the use cases.
16:07:50 [gkellogg]
... The TF semantics don't seem to work well.
16:07:53 [AndyS]
WIP semantics on the wikie: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki
16:08:03 [AndyS]
s/wikie/wiki/
16:08:25 [gkellogg]
... Building true semantics can be a pain, as there are several choices to be made, which aren't clear until examined closely.
16:08:48 [gkellogg]
... It's worth looking at the proposals.
16:09:51 [gkellogg]
... it's easier to write down in a cryptic/terse fashion, and the consequences become documentation.
16:09:51 [gkellogg]
AndyS: THere's been an ongoing difference between syntactic and semantic notations.
16:10:08 [gkellogg]
pfps: Good question: can you have a catholic semantics that covers the use cases?
16:10:22 [TallTed]
catholic == universal, yes?
16:10:53 [gkellogg]
... It's more difficult to have a semantics that covers multiple possibilities. Do we want a single simple semantics or one which has more possibilities?
16:11:06 [gkellogg]
... This would have implications for the syntax, which could be problematic.
16:11:29 [gkellogg]
AndyS: I thought we might end up with two syntaxes, but the worry is how to explain it to people?
16:11:49 [gkellogg]
pfps: We already have different semantic regimes.
16:11:57 [TallTed]
q+
16:12:15 [gkellogg]
AndyS: We can discuss different syntactic variations, but it may be difficult for a broader audience to understand.
16:12:20 [ktk]
ack TallTed
16:12:30 [gkellogg]
TallTed: By "catholic semantics", do you mean "universal"?
16:12:53 [gkellogg]
pfps: Yes, but I use "catholic" to cover all _reasonable_ alternatives, not all possible alternatives.
16:13:08 [TallTed]
s/catholic == universal, yes?//
16:13:32 [gkellogg]
... The other thing with discussion is the difference between quoted triples and singleton graphs.
16:13:35 [TallTed]
s/possible/_possible_/
16:13:57 [gkellogg]
... There's been a bit of discussion on what should be done. The WG needs to say something, if not just, we're not doing this.
16:14:11 [gkellogg]
... I've looked at the new N3 semantics, which I don't fully understand.
16:14:34 [gkellogg]
... If quoted triple semantics can be made compatible with N3 is unknown.
16:15:02 [gkellogg]
... You can think of a quoted triple as an N3 included graph with a single triple. It might be nice for them to behave the same way.
16:15:23 [gkellogg]
AndyS: It's a tension between talking about claims and the representation. Is it meaning, or pure quotation?
16:15:53 [gkellogg]
pfps: The thrust of N3 has been that included graphs are used for implication, but nothing prevents them from being used differently.
16:16:21 [gkellogg]
ktk: I believe doerte said that the goal is to make N3 compatible with RDF, in some way.
16:16:38 [gkellogg]
pfps: The question is if there is any reasonable way to make it possible.
16:17:03 [gkellogg]
zakim, next item
16:17:03 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:17:32 [gkellogg]
ktk: no one with an assigned action is present.
16:17:42 [gkellogg]
... Ora has something to present next time.
16:17:46 [gkellogg]
zakim, next agendum
16:17:46 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, gkellogg
16:17:52 [gkellogg]
zakim, close item 3
16:17:52 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Update on Semantic TF (unless Enrico sends regerets), closed
16:17:54 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:17:54 [Zakim]
4. Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 [from agendabot]
16:17:58 [gkellogg]
zakim, open item 4
16:17:58 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:18:26 [gkellogg]
zakim, close item 4
16:18:26 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3, closed
16:18:28 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:18:28 [Zakim]
5. Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 [from agendabot]
16:18:31 [gkellogg]
zakim, open item 5
16:18:31 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:19:30 [gkellogg]
pfps: There's been some discussion on whether the base direction contains more than one thing on it, and perhaps the change in direction needs to be pulled out.
16:19:57 [AndyS]
q+
16:19:57 [ktk]
q?
16:21:25 [pfps]
currently whether there is one node or two resulting from "hi"@en and "hi"@EN is underspecified
16:21:25 [gb]
https://github.com/en -> @en
16:21:25 [gb]
… https://github.com/EN -> @EN
16:21:31 [gkellogg]
pfps: the issue is if there is a change of the treatment of language tags in the PR.
16:21:54 [gkellogg]
... It's unspecified if "hi"@en is the same as "hi"@EN.
16:22:00 [ktk]
ack AndyS
16:22:18 [gkellogg]
AndyS: The suggestion is to take that change out of the PR, as it's not related to base direction.
16:22:29 [gkellogg]
... It's around line 740 in the PR.
16:23:12 [Souri_]
Our current implementation considers "hi"@EN as equivalent to the normalized form "hi"@en.
16:23:21 [gkellogg]
... The old text says equal character-by-character, and the new says to normalize.
16:23:55 [gkellogg]
... At the moment, the specs say the en and EN give different terms. This goes back to RDF 1.0.
16:24:00 [pfps]
the relevant text in RDF 1.1 Concepts is "A literal is a language-tagged string if the third element is present. Lexical representations of language tags MAY be converted to lower case."
16:24:02 [TallTed]
q+
16:24:26 [gkellogg]
... The reason they're the same value, is because RDF entailment uses this.
16:24:38 [ktk]
ack TallTed
16:25:00 [gkellogg]
TallTed: The issue seems to be that there's a change in implementation behavior if conforming to the new vs old language.
16:25:59 [gkellogg]
AndyS: The text in the PR around language tag equality is still somewhat complicated.
16:26:15 [gkellogg]
... Language tags are otherwise described as "equal values".
16:26:34 [gkellogg]
TallTed: In the example, the values compared are the same integer, but not the same term.
16:27:32 [gkellogg]
action: gkellogg to separate out language tag from base direction in w3c/rdf-concepts#48.
16:27:39 [gb]
Sorry, I don't know what repository to use.
16:28:29 [ktk]
scribe+
16:28:36 [ktk]
gkellogg: the editorial ones can be merged at this point
16:29:06 [ktk]
... N-Triples #34 can be merged probably next week
16:29:09 [ktk]
scribe -
16:29:10 [ktk]
scribe-
16:29:13 [gkellogg]
w3c/rdf-n-triples#34 can wait on w3c/rdf-concepts#36 to be merged.
16:29:13 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/36 -> CLOSED Pull Request 36 FPWD publication snapshot. (by gkellogg) [ms:FPWD]
16:29:13 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/issues/34 -> Pull Request 34 Adds BNF and text to extend LANGTAG to support base direction (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive]
16:29:19 [TallTed]
gb, status
16:29:19 [gb]
TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and no repositories are specified.
16:29:39 [gkellogg]
AndyS: I didn't get to the media-type changes quite yet. Waiting on Ruben.
16:29:50 [ktk]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:29:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:31:13 [gkellogg]
AndyS: The ones on the space character needed some resolution.
16:33:04 [gkellogg]
gkellogg: may need privacy considerations on semantics and schema.
16:33:13 [gkellogg]
zakim, next agendum
16:33:13 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:33:44 [TallTed]
gb, use w3c/rdf-star-wg, w3c/rdf-concepts, w3c/rdf-n-triples, w3c/rdf-n-quads, w3c/rdf-common, w3c/rdf-new, w3c/rdf-primer, w3c/rdf-schema, w3c/rdf-semantics, w3c/rdf-trig, w3c/rdf-turtle, w3c/rdf-ucr, w3c/rdf-xml, w3c/sparql-concepts, w3c/sparql-entailment, w3c/sparql-federated-query, w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol, w3c/sparql-new, w3c/sparql-protocol, w3c/sparql-query, w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv, w3c/sparql-results-json,
16:33:44 [TallTed]
w3c/sparql-results-xml, w3c/sparql-service-description, w3c/sparql-update,
16:33:44 [gb]
TallTed, OK.
16:33:50 [ktk]
scribe+
16:34:00 [TallTed]
gb, status
16:34:00 [gb]
TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-new
16:34:00 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-federated-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment https://github.com/w3c/sparql-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle
16:34:01 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples
16:34:04 [gb]
… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg
16:34:27 [ktk]
gkellogg: we are almost done with RDF C14n normative bits, there are remaining editorial changes.
16:34:29 [TallTed]
for them what care, https://w3c.github.io/GHURLBot/manual.html
16:34:36 [ktk]
... might be ready after TPAC
16:34:38 [ktk]
scribe-
16:34:42 [gkellogg]
gkellogg: normative parts of RDF Dataset Canonicalization are done. Should go to CR after TPAC.
16:35:19 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:35:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:35:26 [ktk]
tnx
16:36:20 [ktk]
few issues, will see with pierre-antoine to fix them. open actions twice, scribe change not in topic
16:36:33 [ktk]
other than that it looks good to me
16:36:36 [TallTed]
s|… https://github.com/w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-federated-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-entailment https://github.com/w3c/sparql-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-xml https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle||
16:36:44 [pfps]
pfps has left #rdf-star
16:36:49 [TallTed]
s|TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and the repositories are https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query https://github.com/w3c/sparql-protocol https://github.com/w3c/sparql-new||
16:36:59 [TallTed]
s|… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema https://github.com/w3c/rdf-primer https://github.com/w3c/rdf-new https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples||
16:37:08 [TallTed]
s|… https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg||
16:37:52 [TallTed]
s|w3c/sparql-results-xml, w3c/sparql-service-description, w3c/sparql-update,||
16:38:02 [TallTed]
s|gb, use w3c/rdf-star-wg, w3c/rdf-concepts, w3c/rdf-n-triples, w3c/rdf-n-quads, w3c/rdf-common, w3c/rdf-new, w3c/rdf-primer, w3c/rdf-schema, w3c/rdf-semantics, w3c/rdf-trig, w3c/rdf-turtle, w3c/rdf-ucr, w3c/rdf-xml, w3c/sparql-concepts, w3c/sparql-entailment, w3c/sparql-federated-query, w3c/sparql-graph-store-protocol, w3c/sparql-new, w3c/sparql-protocol, w3c/sparql-query, w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv, w3c/sparql-results-json,||
16:38:02 [TallTed]
16:38:29 [ktk]
TallTed: thanks!
16:38:58 [TallTed]
s|agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]||
16:39:05 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:39:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:40:39 [TallTed]
i/zakim, close item 1/scribe: gkellogg
16:42:19 [TallTed]
s/gb, status//
16:42:26 [TallTed]
s/gb, status//
16:42:34 [TallTed]
s/TallTed, the delay is 15, issues are on, names are on; and no repositories are specified.//
16:43:03 [TallTed]
s/Sorry, I don't know what repository to use.//
16:43:38 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:43:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:45:42 [TallTed]
s|https://github.com/en -> @en||
16:45:42 [gb]
https://github.com/en -> @en
16:46:00 [TallTed]
s|… https://github.com/EN -> @EN||
16:46:00 [gb]
https://github.com/EN -> @EN
16:46:21 [TallTed]
s/@en/`@en`/
16:46:40 [TallTed]
s/@EN/`@EN`/
16:47:09 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:47:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:47:58 [TallTed]
i/zakim, close item 1/gkellogg has volunteered to scribe
16:49:02 [TallTed]
s|https://github.com/en||
16:49:09 [TallTed]
s|https://github.com/EN||
16:49:17 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:49:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:51:05 [TallTed]
<TallTed> I have trained gb (nee ghurlbot) to use our repositories. These will stick until/unless the bot is renamed again, or its admins drop its settings file(s).
16:51:17 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:51:57 [TallTed]
Zakim, end meeting
16:51:57 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, ktk, gkellogg, TallTed, pfps, Souri_
16:52:00 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:52:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:52:07 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:52:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdf-star
16:52:10 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, bye
16:52:10 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
16:52:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: gkellogg to separate out language tag from base direction in w3c/rdf-concepts#48. [1]
16:52:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-irc#T16-27-32
16:52:13 [gb]
I created -> issue #30 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-json/issues/30
16:52:13 [gb]
but I could not add the "action" label.
16:52:13 [gb]
That probably means I don't have push permission on w3c/sparql-results-json.