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16:08:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:09:19 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:09:51 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA deep dive summary element
16:09:51 <jamesn> scribe+
16:10:09 <jamesn> Scott: goes over a brief history of the summary element and some of the issues in HTML
16:17:12 <Adam_Page> present+
16:21:30 <jamesn> present+
16:22:14 <jamesn> scott: what can we do to expose this consitently and home up with a pathway forward
16:22:27 <jamesn> html doesn't want to make changes to the content model
16:26:41 <jamesn> jcraig: is the reason to talk about this in context of role parity
16:27:09 <jamesn> scott: 1st can we do this consistently? then - would it be existing or new
16:27:48 <jamesn> jcraig: so we need a pushable or clickable with open/closed state
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16:29:58 <jamesn> matt: 1st respond - tab is all manually done. there is no implicit relationship. Could just as easily use button - no taxonomy changes needed
16:30:08 <jamesn> matt: could be useful for us to have a list of the distinct problems
16:31:01 <jcraig> parity role should be similar to a clickable with a expanded/collapsed state.... tab or toggle button seem most likely: disclosure -> *[role=button][aria-pressed]
16:31:03 <jamesn> matt: a clickable element needs to be exposed and think it is reasonable to assume that that clickable element itself isn't the element with descendant content. and some way of naming it needs to be specified
16:31:22 <jamesn> matt: can't think of any place in aria where you have an interactive element with nested interactives
16:31:46 <jamesn> matt: just a problem as can't have nested interactives
16:33:12 <jcraig> remaining problem with mapping "disclosure -> *[role=button][aria-pressed]" is the children presentational issue with button.
16:33:25 <jamesn> jamesn: want to allow to solve the other nested interactive cases too
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16:35:38 <jamesn> mu-an: as someone who uses the details elements - lots of places have disclosure removed - resetting those is a bit of a mess. to expose interactive content - if the triangle has been removed the interactive would be gone
16:36:15 <jamesn> scotto: in reviewing the a11y of these things - there are some issues with some browsers where if the marker is removed it can end up being a nothing element without it
16:36:50 <jamesn> scotto: whatever we end up doing we need to makes sure that css is not required and if the marker is removed it should not make it inaccessible
16:37:48 <jamesn> melanie: are we asking if we would like to more uniformly announce summary - want to get scope right here
16:38:08 <jamesn> scotto: one thing would be good to solve would be a single way that these are implemented
16:38:26 <jamesn> in some browsers would navigate by buttons and in others not
16:38:38 <jcraig> This is the article melsumner was referring to: https://melsumner.github.io/details-as-a-menu
16:39:43 <jamesn> discussion around bending these elements - usage has been expanded over the years. find in page will expand details elements
16:39:43 <jamesn> can create silly user experiences when using for dropdowns for example
16:40:24 <jamesn> jcraig: remap cases where summary -> menu would be uop to the author to provide the actual mapping
16:41:16 <jamesn> jcraig: initial comments - forgot to mention that disclosure could map to button or tab but the key problem with button is children presentational baggage.  Links for example can have nested interactives
16:42:25 <jamesn> mario: can have an exposure of the summary as for example the summary role and tabbing would be the first thing - disclosure button could name that with heading or content
16:42:37 <jamesn> https://codepen.io/scottohara/pen/RwqQgML
16:43:17 <jcraig> nit: if we go Mario's direction, I prefer “disclosure” as a new role name over “summary”
16:43:32 <melsumner> +1
16:46:21 <jamesn> mario: not possible to say all of summary is exposed as a button - as can have interactive content within it
16:47:16 <melsumner> casual comment: The children of interactives are presentational. Genuinely don't want that to change. Maybe I need to make a t-shirt "no nested interactive" ;)
16:49:41 <jamesn> matt: like the general direction - does skirt the children presentational issue. don't know if it is really a problem
16:50:58 <jamesn> matt: stilll wondering about a use case - where the button that doesn the expanding and collapsing and essentially labels the discolsure - where that button is wrapped in a heading. can put a heading inside the summary but if want to create something more like accordions in APG - can then press enter to expand the content
16:52:21 <jamesn> scotto: regardless there will be work for the browsers
16:52:52 <jamesn> scotto: since html doesn't want to change the content model means there will be needed changes in the browsers
16:53:08 <jamesn> scotto: allowing headings to wrap them could be allowed
16:53:54 <jamesn> matt: could put anything in the summary - seems counter intuitive
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17:01:55 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
17:01:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, jamesn
17:01:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-aria-dive-minutes.html Zakim
17:02:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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