14:46:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #vcwg
14:46:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-vcwg-irc
14:46:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:46:24 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:46:44 <ivan> Meeting: Verifiable Credentials Working Group Telco
14:46:44 <ivan> Date: 2023-07-26
14:46:44 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ae05a21b-c065-4e69-8d5e-352a0d391513/20230726T110000/
14:46:44 <ivan> chair: brent
14:46:44 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-07-26: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ae05a21b-c065-4e69-8d5e-352a0d391513/20230726T110000/
14:46:49 <gkellog__> gkellog__ has joined #vcwg
14:50:53 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #vcwg
14:54:06 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
14:56:41 <brent> brent has joined #vcwg
14:59:05 <hsano> hsano has joined #vcwg
14:59:27 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:00:11 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #vcwg
15:00:24 <ivan> present+ hsano, shigeya, ivan
15:00:35 <Will> Will has joined #vcwg
15:00:42 <Will> present+
15:00:44 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:01:27 <seabass> present+
15:02:22 <dlongley> present+
15:02:37 <andres> andres has joined #vcwg
15:02:37 <brent> present+
15:02:47 <GregB> GregB has joined #vcwg
15:03:01 <selfissued> selfissued has joined #vcwg
15:03:01 <TallTed> present+
15:03:04 <selfissued> present+
15:03:05 <dmitriz> dmitriz has joined #vcwg
15:03:09 <dmitriz> present+
15:03:10 <GregB> present+
15:03:53 <ivan> present+ brent
15:03:57 <ivan> present+ manu
15:04:03 <ivan> present+ dlongley
15:04:05 <seabass> scribe+
15:04:24 <ivan> present+ andres
15:04:35 <ivan> present+ joeandrieu
15:04:53 <JoeAndrieu> JoeAndrieu has joined #vcwg
15:04:53 <manu> q+ to cover PRs that we might be able to address ont he call today.
15:04:59 <decentralgabe> decentralgabe has joined #vcwg
15:05:03 <JoeAndrieu> q+ to ask about 1172
15:05:04 <decentralgabe> present+
15:05:22 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:05:22 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to ask about 1172
15:05:32 <andres> present+
15:05:40 <seabass> JoeAndrieu (IRC): I would like to remove the Pre-CR tag on 1172.
15:06:05 <brent> Topic: Work Item status updates/PRs
15:06:07 <brent> ack manu
15:06:07 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to cover PRs that we might be able to address ont he call today.
15:06:19 <manu> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1142
15:06:30 <pdl_asu> pdl_asu has joined #vcwg
15:06:32 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #vcwg
15:06:40 <pdl_asu> present+
15:06:46 <ivan> q+
15:06:51 <seabass> manu: 1142 is about confidence method. Progress has been made on it; we should be able to merge the pull request shortly.
15:06:54 <brent> ack ivan
15:07:23 <manu> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1172
15:07:40 <seabass> manu: Discussion continues on 1172.
15:07:47 <gkellog__> gkellog__ has joined #vcwg
15:07:53 <ivan> present+ oliver
15:08:07 <seabass> JoeAndrieu (IRC): There's some interest in editorial adjustments, but the consensus is that it won't change normative statements.
15:08:17 <kgriffin> kgriffin has joined #vcwg
15:08:26 <ivan> s/ (IRC)//
15:08:35 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:08:37 <manu> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1202
15:08:57 <oliver> oliver has joined #vcwg
15:09:01 <oliver> present+
15:09:04 <oliver> q+
15:09:09 <brent> ack oliver
15:09:17 <seabass> manu: For the section on JSON processing, there are a few remaining points. oliver (IRC), are you objecting to the proposal or something else?
15:09:31 <kgriffin> present+
15:10:04 <manu> q+
15:10:18 <seabass> oliver (IRC): I have to re-read the pull request. To me it seems rather random and written in a very condensed style.
15:11:19 <seabass> ACK ivan, please could someone else scribe while I change clients
15:11:34 <labrax> labrax has joined #vcwg
15:12:23 <brent> ack manu
15:12:47 <ivan> present+ andrew
15:13:07 <oliver> q+
15:13:17 <seabass> manu: There was a PR by kristina that removed all the statements about JSON processing. There was consensus for this, but others misinterpreted it as us removing support for JSON-only processing.
15:14:02 <seabass> manu: This new PR is to add a condensed list to conpensate for the removed sections on JSON processing.
15:14:27 <brent> ack oliver
15:14:30 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #vcwg
15:14:58 <manu> q+
15:15:44 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:15:53 <seabass> oliver: I was just reading 1203 where it was proposed that the transformed document has to follow linked data best practices. This means that VCs have to follow linked data practices, not just plain JSON.
15:16:11 <brent> ack manu
15:16:56 <oliver> q+
15:17:04 <seabass> manu: The two different PRs address different things. 1203 does not introduce a normative requirement; it is guidance for those transforming data to JSON-LD.
15:17:47 <oliver> q-
15:17:56 <manu> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1203
15:18:22 <seabass> manu: I think JoeAndrieu was objecting to the language in 1203.
15:18:45 <TallTed> q+
15:19:00 <brent> ack TallTed
15:19:45 <JoeAndrieu> q+ to say it's all about W3C VCs
15:20:32 <manu> q+ to request concrete text.
15:20:38 <seabass> TallTed: I don't think there's any place for implementors to find out which methods are recommended or not. We also say that a proof that is broken in the future becomes not allowed for VCs, but don't describe what to do if the VC can't be reissued.
15:20:46 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:20:48 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to say it's all about W3C VCs
15:21:39 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #vcwg
15:21:41 <brent> ack manu
15:21:41 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to request concrete text.
15:21:44 <seabass> JoeAndrieu: The W3C defines what a VC is. I object to our specification using the term VC to apply to non-W3C-defined methods.
15:21:50 <seabass> +1 JoeAndrieu
15:22:35 <manu> q+
15:22:39 <brent> ack manu
15:22:45 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-integrity/pulls
15:23:19 <seabass> manu: There are a lot of data integrity PRs outstanding that are ready to be merged.
15:23:26 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-di-ecdsa/pulls
15:24:04 <seabass> manu: I plan to wait until IETF before merging the vc- di-ecdsa pull requests.
15:24:13 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/vc-status-list-2021/pulls
15:24:33 <seabass> manu: I think we have consensus to rename vc-status-list-2021 to something without a date and with a more unique name.
15:25:48 <dlongley> +1 to approach outlined by Manu
15:26:16 <brent> Topic: Issues
15:26:18 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Abefore-CR+-label%3A%22pending+close%22+sort%3Aupdated-asc
15:27:05 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Apost-CR+-label%3Abefore-CR+-label%3A%22pending+close%22+sort%3Aupdated-asc+
15:27:31 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:27:36 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/870
15:27:53 <seabass> brent: Issue 870. Should we do this before or after CR and who to assign?
15:28:37 <manu> q+
15:28:43 <brent> ack manu
15:28:56 <manu> https://w3c.github.io/vc-specs-dir/#evidence
15:29:20 <manu> https://www.imsglobal.org/spec/ob/v3p0/
15:29:25 <seabass> manu: I think we need to resolve it before CR. It's missing 1EdTech - they very clearly use this extension point.
15:29:39 <manu> https://1edtech.github.io/openbadges-specification/ob_v3p0.html#evidence
15:30:24 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #vcwg
15:30:57 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1206
15:31:05 <manu> q+
15:31:18 <brent> ack manu
15:32:17 <seabass> manu: It's fine to use full URIs in normal JSON-LD documents, however if publishing in JSON-only mode implementors would have to add support for both shortened and full URIs.
15:33:00 <manu> q+
15:33:31 <brent> ack manu
15:34:04 <TallTed> q+
15:34:11 <brent> ack TallTed
15:34:46 <manu> q+
15:34:54 <ivan> q+
15:35:06 <manu> q-
15:35:08 <seabass> TallTed: This reminds me of a discussion about MIME types for VCs, and that to be able to use the JSON media type for JSON-LD documents the URI has to be expanded.
15:35:12 <brent> ack manu
15:35:26 <brent> ack ivan
15:35:45 <dmitriz> dmitriz has joined #vcwg
15:35:57 <seabass> ivan: There is nothing specific to the 'type' property here. It would apply to any JSON-LD property.
15:36:07 <manu> Yes, agree with Ivan, which is not a good developer experience, which is why we don't do/require that today.
15:36:16 <TallTed> q+
15:36:19 <seabass> q+
15:36:37 <brent> ack TallTed
15:37:19 <brent> ack seabass
15:37:22 <manu> seabass: Plain JSON processing is not about avoiding implementing something w/ JSON-LD... it's more important to view the case where you don't have an active internet connection, you need to be stuff w/o active connection to Internet.
15:37:59 <manu> JoeAndrieu: In production systems, you don't want to retrieve context values... you want to understand which context which software your software has been written to... and write to that.
15:38:24 <manu> seabass: From ease of use, you don't want to require active internet connection to pass something. For example, ticket machine loses WiFi and then you can't get through... this needs to work w/o fetching stuff from the Web.
15:38:28 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1205
15:38:32 <dlongley> JSON can't be understood without a spec and we have one of those, it's fine how it is
15:38:39 <manu> q+
15:38:54 <brent> ack manu
15:39:17 <seabass> manu: We had a discussion about 1205 in yesterday's special topic call. I think this is pre-CR.
15:39:20 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:39:41 <ivan> q+
15:39:47 <brent> ack ivan
15:40:50 <manu> https://github.com/w3c/did-core/issues/845
15:41:41 <manu> q+
15:42:08 <brent> ack manu
15:42:25 <seabass> manu: I wouldn't mark it pending-close yet.
15:42:32 <seabass> q+
15:42:41 <brent> ack seabass
15:43:00 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:43:16 <manu> seabass: I'm happy to speak about this later, in yesterday's meeting, Dave Longley said that controller documents have been a part of data integrity for a decade... work in W3C has not been going on for that long.
15:43:25 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1214
15:43:29 <manu> q+
15:43:51 <brent> ack manu
15:43:53 <seabass> brent: If I recall correctly, we've had several issues similar to 1214. That makes me think we should have specification text for this.
15:44:28 <ivan> q+
15:44:47 <seabass> manu: After VC 1.0 came out, we couldn't add it in 1.1 as it was technically a breaking change.
15:44:57 <brent> ack ivan
15:45:03 <seabass> manu: Now we can introduce it so we can finally address the issue.
15:45:30 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Abefore-CR+sort%3Aupdated-asc
15:46:24 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1010
15:47:06 <seabass> brent: 1010 was raised by manu and assigned to pdl_asu.
15:47:50 <manu> q+
15:47:52 <JoeAndrieu> q+
15:47:53 <seabass> pdl_asu: There was a conversation when the issue was created, but not much discussion since then.
15:47:56 <brent> ack manu
15:48:23 <seabass> manu: Terms of Use is labelled as 'at risk', so it will be removed unless work is done on it.
15:48:56 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #vcwg
15:48:58 <TallTed> q+
15:49:18 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:49:49 <seabass> JoeAndrieu: I don't understand who is bound to the terms of use in our three-party system.
15:50:07 <brent> +1 Joe, all that you say indicates we really need to see a spec
15:50:11 <brent> ack TallTed
15:50:16 <seabass> JoeAndrieu: I think it's far more complicated than anything we've done so far, so I don't think we're ready. However I think we should keep it reserved.
15:50:47 <seabass> TallTed: I think it is OK to go into CR with only one implementation.
15:52:07 <JoeAndrieu> q+ to say section for reserves?
15:52:08 <seabass> brent: It sounds like the section of the specification to do with Terms of Use ought to be removed, because there is nothing concrete to describe. Leaving it in the reserved terms is best while we experiment.
15:52:11 <manu> +1 to brent's summary, that sounded accurate to me.
15:52:14 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:52:14 <Zakim> JoeAndrieu, you wanted to say section for reserves?
15:52:24 <manu> q+
15:52:32 <seabass> JoeAndrieu: For all the terms that we have reserved, we should explain what we intend to use them for.
15:52:50 <brent> ack manu
15:52:51 <manu> https://w3c.github.io/vc-data-model/#reserved-extension-points
15:53:30 <seabass> manu: We can use the description from 1.1 if it gets removed during CR.
15:53:33 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1089
15:54:28 <manu> q+
15:54:37 <brent> ack manu
15:55:02 <seabass> manu: I think we need to keep this issue open as there is no other tracking issue.
15:55:35 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #vcwg
15:55:53 <manu> q+
15:55:58 <seabass> brent: We already have a marker to indicate that the content might change with CR. Do we therefore need a before-CR label?
15:56:39 <brent> ack manu
15:56:39 <seabass> manu: Yes, I believe so. I think we should have a before-CR label for implementation requirements.
15:56:39 <gkellog__> gkellog__ has joined #vcwg
15:57:24 <seabass> brent: I believe the consensus now is to have a 'kitchen sink' model with everything defined centrally.
15:58:02 <manu> +1 to brent, that's my understanding as well.
15:58:08 <dlongley> +1 to brent's characterization
15:59:40 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-vcwg-minutes.html ivan
16:00:44 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
16:00:44 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been hsano, shigeya, ivan, Will, seabass, dlongley, brent, TallTed, selfissued, dmitriz, GregB, manu, andres, joeandrieu, decentralgabe,
16:00:47 <Zakim> ... pdl_asu, oliver, kgriffin, andrew
16:00:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/26-vcwg-minutes.html Zakim
16:00:54 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:00:54 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:00:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:00:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #vcwg