13:01:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl
13:01:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-epub-fxl-irc
13:01:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:01:38 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
13:02:33 <wendyreid> meeting: EPUB FXL Accessibility Taskforce
13:02:34 <wendyreid> date: 2023-07-25
13:02:38 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
13:02:47 <wendyreid> present+
13:02:50 <CharlesL> present+
13:02:56 <sue-neu> sue-neu has joined #epub-fxl
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13:03:10 <Rachel_Osolen> Rachel_Osolen has joined #epub-fxl
13:03:10 <gpellegrino> present+
13:03:16 <sue-neu> present+
13:06:00 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:06:32 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: last time we had a great conversation, but we didn't end up with an action
13:06:45 <gpellegrino> ... I would like to use the time of our call effectively
13:06:56 <sue-neu> q+
13:06:57 <gpellegrino> ... so what's the most effective use of the time?
13:06:59 <gpellegrino> q+
13:07:00 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:07:04 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:07:23 <gpellegrino> sue-neu: are we ready to test the solutions listed in case number 60?
13:07:35 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: some of those yes (like SVG)
13:09:38 <gpellegrino> ... not the fixed-reflowable mixed, nor the visual/textual example
13:10:02 <gpellegrino> ... maybe for visual/textual we can make a mockup
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13:10:13 <gpellegrino> ... fallbacks theoretically work
13:10:29 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:10:52 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Not that clear to me what our goal is. We are having great brainstorming sessions
13:10:58 <wendyreid> ... I would like to define a goal
13:11:07 <wendyreid> ... then look for solutions to reach that goal
13:11:11 <wendyreid> ... in two categories
13:11:17 <wendyreid> ... reading systems side, content creator side
13:11:29 <wendyreid> ... for the goal, for me, it's not that simple to say "accessible fixed layout"
13:11:47 <wendyreid> ... looking at WCAG, accessible FXL doesn't mean changing font, size
13:11:57 <wendyreid> ... WCAG says we can zoom, font size change is not needed
13:12:02 <wendyreid> ... we are looking for something else
13:12:13 <wendyreid> ... not just to meet WCAG, but to have something more usable
13:12:22 <wendyreid> ... have a statement we all agree on
13:12:32 <wendyreid> ... and then technical solutions we agree on
13:12:56 <wendyreid> ... the other thing to consider, we need Apple, so many FXL titles were created for books
13:13:02 <wendyreid> ... maybe we can ask them to join in
13:13:20 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:13:48 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, we can ask them
13:14:46 <gpellegrino> ... when we started in EPUB WG we had the idea to have guidelines for content creators on how to create accessible FXL publications
13:15:05 <gpellegrino> ... if the goal is only meeting WCAG, then the document is quite ok
13:16:07 <gpellegrino> ... if we want to raise the bar, then we have to suggest to produce something that is more than zooming the content
13:16:23 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: does the WCAG require only zooming?
13:16:53 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, for FXL content, but for sure for some readers this is not enough
13:18:34 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: if we want to come with something that is durable for publishers and for endusers, we have to go above WCAG
13:19:21 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: we want to produce documentation for content creators and reading systems on how to produce accessible experience in reading FXL content
13:20:08 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Agreed, I would like to add, what do we mean by an accessible experience? It's part of the research on our side
13:20:34 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, defining it will help contextualizing
13:21:08 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NUaO5gvboK23ssvj-j2bcJ_I8AQyN9wr1qcjzuQFXgg/edit?usp=sharing
13:21:08 <sue-neu> q+
13:21:18 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:21:32 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: this is the Google Doc with the current text where we're right now
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13:22:09 <gpellegrino> sue-neu: for defining what is an accessible reading experience we can start from something already available, so we don't reinvent the wheel
13:22:41 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: not sure if there's something in WCAG
13:23:14 <gpellegrino> Rachel_Osolen: we have a definition of what FXL is, and we've a definition of what accessibility is
13:23:21 <gpellegrino> q+
13:23:30 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:23:51 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Start with something like this is a FXL EPUB that meets WCAG AA and then add the requirements
13:25:21 <gpellegrino> Rachel_Osolen: yes, we have docs for telling what makes an EPUB3 accessible
13:25:31 <gpellegrino> ... we know the requirements for endusers
13:25:57 <CharlesL> http://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/fxl/wcag.html
13:26:11 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: the DAISY KB has something on this
13:26:26 <CharlesL> http://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/fxl/
13:27:02 <gpellegrino> q+
13:27:04 <gpellegrino> q-
13:28:17 <gpellegrino> q+
13:28:53 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:29:15 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: in WCAG, if a format cannot meet requirements due to constraints of the format, they you are exempt
13:29:23 <wendyreid> s/they/then/
13:29:34 <wendyreid> ... this is how other formats get exemptions
13:30:07 <wendyreid> ... we have reflow requirements, text spacing, orientation, the only missing one is the font face
13:30:13 <sue-neu> q+
13:31:05 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, the only this we differ from WCAG is the possibility to change font faces and color schemes
13:31:17 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
13:31:18 <gpellegrino> s/this/thing/
13:31:34 <gpellegrino> sue-neu: do we need to add something read-aloud or screenreader?
13:31:36 <gpellegrino> q+
13:32:43 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:33:18 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Can we refine further, an accessible FXL EPUB, include the requirements from EPUB accessibility 1.1
13:33:36 <wendyreid> ... structural navigation, media overlays
13:35:51 <gpellegrino> q+
13:36:07 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: for the moment we don't have a document for content creators
13:36:19 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:36:30 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: The documents are also focused mainly on HTML content
13:36:40 <wendyreid> ... we should outline more of the approaches for both sides
13:36:54 <wendyreid> ... content creators, HTML, SVG, and image approach
13:37:16 <wendyreid> ... reading systems, how to display those content types
13:39:07 <wendyreid> CharlesL: It would be HTML + one of those contents?
13:39:30 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: It could be, but there is HTML only content
13:39:33 <wendyreid> ... with CSS
13:42:26 <CharlesL> regarding AI and a comparison of Non-AI vs. AI generated content for text, images etc.  Really intersting.
13:42:27 <CharlesL> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ft.co%2f5RFibamHv0&c=E,1,DImuO6XJuBoiAh1EU7qcCzqfFl-NNALFgqtKZFXS60jvJNJdF1zNz9rzvzKDobmNXitGhszaHh-hcyXib31nERHim14GR2GL_Pa5BnvN9nHfgyPr9fJEzjQ,&typo=1
13:44:22 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: I think is important to have other reading systems' developers around the table
13:45:36 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: may we say that we need two implementations, even if this will not be a rec?
13:45:51 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: yes, and I would love to have this in epubtest.org
13:46:29 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: I can ask Apple, Vital Source, Colibrio, any other?
13:46:38 <gpellegrino> ... Japan is missing
13:47:26 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: also for special education content office in US
13:48:35 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: homework
13:49:50 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I can try to read the document and comment on it
13:50:15 <gpellegrino> ... in the autumn LIA may work on SVG part
13:50:45 <gpellegrino> sue-neu: I can help with the imagee part
13:50:52 <gpellegrino> s/imagee/images/
13:50:58 <gpellegrino> Rachel_Osolen: me too
13:51:16 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: do we need some expert in SVG?
13:52:28 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I think SVG work will mostly be adding ARIA attributes to SVG
13:52:42 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: yes, I can start from figma, and then improving it
13:54:17 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: we are missing mixed content of fixed and reflowable content in the reading system section
13:56:24 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: I can review the document and try to make an outline for the reading system doc
13:57:08 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
13:57:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, CharlesL, gpellegrino, sue-neu
13:57:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:57:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/25-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
13:57:19 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:57:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
13:58:03 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub-fxl
14:00:22 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
14:00:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items