IRC log of rdf-star on 2023-07-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:54:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-irc
15:54:55 [ktk]
Agenda https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230720T120000/
15:55:02 [ktk]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230720T120000/
15:55:02 [agendabot]
clear agenda
15:55:02 [agendabot]
agenda+ Scribe: Thibodeau, Ted (alternate: Haudebourg, Timothée)
15:55:02 [agendabot]
agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:55:02 [agendabot]
agenda+ Update on Use Cases
15:55:03 [agendabot]
agenda+ Update on Semantic TF
15:55:05 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:55:08 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:55:11 [agendabot]
agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:55:40 [ktk]
regret+ azimmermann
15:55:47 [ktk]
Zakim, draft minutes
15:55:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'draft minutes', ktk
15:57:08 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:57:34 [ktk]
TallTed: what was the command again for drafting minutes?
15:58:18 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:58:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:58:28 [ktk]
ah, wrong bot then :) thanks
15:58:29 [TallTed]
present+
15:58:36 [ktk]
present+
15:58:43 [ktk]
Chair+
15:59:23 [TallTed]
scribe+
15:59:27 [pchampin]
present+
16:00:14 [ktk]
TallTed: I don't get the minutes yet, you?
16:00:28 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:00:53 [TallTed]
s/TallTed: what was the command again for drafting minutes?//
16:01:03 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:01:10 [ktk]
regret+ rtaelman
16:01:12 [gkellogg]
present+
16:01:23 [ktk]
regret+ dtomaszuk
16:01:34 [TallTed]
s/regret+ rtaelman/regrets+ rtaelman/
16:01:36 [gtw]
present+
16:01:40 [ktk]
regret+ EFranconi
16:01:44 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:01:47 [TallTed]
s/regret+ dtomaszuk/regrets+ dtomaszuk/
16:01:53 [niklasl]
present+
16:01:54 [pfps]
present+
16:01:56 [TallTed]
s/regret+ EFranconi/regrets+ EFranconi/
16:01:58 [ktk]
regret+ souri
16:02:11 [TallTed]
s/regret+ souri/regrets+ souri/
16:02:17 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:02:25 [Tpt]
present+
16:02:35 [TallTed]
s/ah, wrong bot then :) thanks//
16:02:43 [TallTed]
s/TallTed: I don't get the minutes yet, you?//
16:02:58 [ora]
ora has joined #rdf-star
16:03:05 [ora]
present+
16:03:05 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:03:12 [ktk]
chair: ora:
16:03:12 [ktk]
chair: ora
16:03:21 [TallTed]
Zakim, first agendum
16:03:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'first agendum', TallTed
16:03:22 [AndyS]
present+
16:03:31 [TallTed]
zakim, open first item
16:03:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'open first item', TallTed
16:03:40 [TallTed]
Zakim, open first agendum
16:03:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'open first agendum', TallTed
16:03:58 [TallTed]
Zakim, open agendum 1
16:03:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Scribe: Thibodeau, Ted (alternate: Haudebourg, Timothée) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:10 [TallTed]
Zakim, close agendum 1
16:04:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Scribe: Thibodeau, Ted (alternate: Haudebourg, Timothée), closed
16:04:12 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:04:12 [Zakim]
2. Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:04:27 [TallTed]
Zakim, open agendum 2
16:04:27 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:04 [pfps]
minutes look fine to me
16:05:32 [ora]
proposal: Approve last week's minutes
16:05:39 [gkellogg]
+1
16:05:42 [ktk]
+1
16:05:45 [ora]
+1
16:05:45 [pchampin]
+0
16:05:46 [gtw]
+1
16:05:46 [TallTed]
<TallTed> +1
16:05:47 [pfps]
+1
16:06:27 [Tpt]
+1
16:06:29 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:07:06 [AndyS]
+1
16:07:06 [niklasl]
+1
16:07:06 [ora]
resolved: Approve last week's minutes
16:07:06 [TallTed]
Zakim, next agendum
16:07:06 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Update on Use Cases -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:07:29 [pfps]
The UCR summary wiki page is https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/wiki/Summary
16:08:04 [TallTed]
scribe: TallTed
16:08:14 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:08:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:09:06 [TallTed]
pfps: has been working through the UCR stack, back-and-forth with submitters. Would like more use cases, and for some of the CG use cases to be shepherded by others
16:09:36 [ora]
q?
16:09:39 [ora]
q+
16:09:45 [TallTed]
... would like to schedule time on a future call to review UCR in depth
16:09:54 [ora]
ack ora
16:10:12 [niklasl]
q+
16:10:35 [TallTed]
ora: notes the large number of regrets for recent meetings, perhaps we should take a break for summer?
16:10:40 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:11:09 [richard_lea]
richard_lea has joined #rdf-star
16:11:19 [TallTed]
niklasl: volunteers to help with existing use cases, and has some others to submit when in better shape
16:11:30 [TallTed]
pfps: welcomes even rough submissions
16:12:13 [richard_lea]
present+
16:12:37 [TallTed]
Zakim, next agendum
16:12:37 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Update on Semantic TF -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:09 [TallTed]
[ lacking enrico, postponing Semantic TF update]
16:13:18 [TallTed]
Zakim, next agendum
16:13:18 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, TallTed
16:13:24 [TallTed]
Zakim, close agendum 4
16:13:24 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Update on Semantic TF, closed
16:13:25 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:13:25 [Zakim]
5. Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 [from agendabot]
16:13:34 [TallTed]
Zakim, next agendum
16:13:34 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:55 [pchampin]
q+
16:14:21 [gkellogg]
q+
16:14:30 [TallTed]
ora: still working on proposal wording for https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/19
16:14:36 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:15:09 [TallTed]
pchampin: is keeping https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/55 and https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/63 open
16:15:29 [ora]
q+
16:15:30 [TallTed]
... created https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/77 and it's in progress
16:16:16 [pchampin]
q?
16:16:17 [TallTed]
... IPR changes may delay that progress a bit
16:16:27 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:16:34 [pchampin]
q+
16:17:06 [TallTed]
gkellogg: on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/63 N-Triples 1.1 mis-links outward, may need updates on that
16:17:43 [TallTed]
... on test suites, we had discussed join ownership with JSON-LD WG, to make issues & PRs show up on each other's dashboards
16:18:19 [AndyS]
q+
16:18:21 [TallTed]
... on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/76, both areas have been updated
16:18:35 [ora]
ack ora
16:19:13 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:19:23 [TallTed]
ora: related to short names, had some challenge getting to SPARQL 1.1, was prompted for W3C credentials, seemed like transient fluke
16:20:06 [TallTed]
pchampin: gkellogg noticed that some github actions related to adding PRs and Issues to dashboard were misbehaving
16:20:24 [TallTed]
ACTION: pchampin to investigate hiccups in github actions
16:20:31 [gb]
Created -> action #78 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/78
16:20:31 [pchampin]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/actions/runs/5611766553/job/15203988524
16:21:01 [gkellogg]
Github can be flakey, sometimes.
16:21:50 [TallTed]
... TPAC organizers have requested lightning talks, and pushed for a 10 minute presentation on our 18 documents
16:21:51 [pchampin]
champin.net/2023/rdf-star-wds.svg
16:21:55 [pchampin]
champin.net/2023/rdf-star-wds.svg#concepts#concepts
16:22:14 [TallTed]
s/#concepts#concepts/#concepts/
16:23:10 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:23:13 [TallTed]
... will share a script for approval, and then produce a video for TPAC
16:23:54 [TallTed]
AndyS: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/76 is not yet complete as an action; only the plan is complete
16:24:01 [ora]
q?
16:24:04 [gkellogg]
q+
16:25:00 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:25:19 [TallTed]
s/is not yet complete as an action; only the plan is complete/is complete/
16:25:50 [TallTed]
gkellogg: historically, tests have not been considered substantive, have been treated as immune from IPR considerations
16:25:59 [TallTed]
... we should investigate that for this project
16:26:26 [TallTed]
ora: pchampin should be able to get that info
16:26:44 [ora]
q?
16:27:17 [pchampin]
q+
16:27:33 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:29:16 [TallTed]
[group] we might want to set up a place for tests that suggest spec changes
16:29:22 [ora]
q?
16:29:26 [TallTed]
Zakim, next agendum
16:29:26 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:29:47 [AndyS]
q+
16:29:58 [pfps]
q+ to discuss mobile display
16:30:04 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:30:32 [TallTed]
AndyS: meta-item, a PR I looked at today had preview and diff which were unrelated to the PR
16:30:54 [TallTed]
s/preview and diff which were/diff which was/
16:31:00 [ora]
q?
16:31:01 [TallTed]
... preview was fine
16:31:18 [pchampin]
sometimes documents included by respec behave strangely with preview and diff, but this sounds like a different issue...
16:31:22 [TallTed]
gkellogg: there are hack-y ways to do this, if needed
16:31:34 [ora]
ack pfps
16:31:34 [Zakim]
pfps, you wanted to discuss mobile display
16:31:34 [pchampin]
https://services.w3.org/htmldiff
16:31:55 [pchampin]
q+
16:31:57 [TallTed]
pfps: What's required to push the mobile phone display issue?
16:32:23 [ktk]
q+
16:32:28 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:32:30 [TallTed]
pchampin: recollection was that we would rather try to fix dominic's issue, rather than try to solve all mobile issues
16:33:20 [TallTed]
pfps: can't resolve it by just closing this PR because most documents have a CSS change, one doc does not
16:33:57 [ora]
ack ktk
16:34:19 [gkellogg]
q+
16:34:37 [TallTed]
ktk: I suggest we revert all these changes, so all docs are in same state, and then review screenshots of specific issues toward resolving those, rather than trying to solve all theoretical issues
16:35:06 [TallTed]
... I suggest each such problem be raised its own issue and carried to its resolution
16:36:42 [TallTed]
pfps: currently, variations on CSS change have been applied to most if not all docs other than rdf-semantics, which mess with display in narrow window on large screen, not just with display on narrow screen
16:36:42 [ora]
q?
16:37:13 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:37:18 [TallTed]
... variations of result depend on whether viewing at w3.org, github.io, etc., even though the content is ostensibly the same
16:37:54 [TallTed]
gkellogg: CSS varies rather a lot across our 20 documents, regardless of how much they may have matched in the past
16:38:39 [TallTed]
... most docs look OK to me. aside from one odd table in one doc
16:39:05 [TallTed]
q+
16:39:48 [ora]
ack TallTed
16:40:36 [pchampin]
scribe+
16:40:40 [pchampin]
TallTed: I see two options: dig into each document and make them "good" (for some definition of "good")
16:41:11 [ora]
q+
16:41:11 [pchampin]
... or copy the content of each document under some boilerplate CSS (a lot of work)
16:41:18 [ora]
ack ora
16:41:40 [TallTed]
ora: my take is that someday, we'll need to fix this ... if not now, when?
16:41:43 [pchampin]
scribe-
16:42:00 [AndyS]
q+
16:42:17 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:42:19 [TallTed]
... will individual editors take this on for their set? will other people volunteer for just this cleanup?
16:43:04 [TallTed]
AndyS: the SPARQL docs probably need to be considered separately, because they have a lot of special formatting that doesn't play well with ReSpec, orthogonally to the mobile screens issue
16:44:15 [gkellogg]
q+
16:44:15 [TallTed]
... hoped to push CSS later in the process than the substantive content
16:44:29 [ora]
ack gkellogg
16:44:56 [TallTed]
gkellogg: dominic spent quite some time on this, but there is still far to go
16:45:21 [TallTed]
... agrees that substantive content is far more important. CSS could be pushed past CR.
16:45:45 [ora]
q?
16:46:27 [TallTed]
ora: concurs with focusing on content rather than CSS
16:47:42 [TallTed]
gkellogg: by and large, the RDF docs aren't bad
16:48:12 [TallTed]
AndyS: SPARQL docs have nested styling, and a lot of troublesome color coding
16:49:21 [TallTed]
AndyS: the media-type language issues should be quickly handled
16:49:53 [TallTed]
gkellogg: privacy considerations seem to be pretty well baked in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/52 and can be echoed on the other RDF docs
16:50:15 [TallTed]
ora: how about BNF change?
16:50:53 [TallTed]
gkellogg: still working on N-triples https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-triples/pull/34, still blocked by https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/48
16:51:06 [TallTed]
ora: will poke I18n
16:51:35 [TallTed]
Zakim, next agendum
16:51:35 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:51:50 [TallTed]
ora: should we have a summer break?
16:51:52 [TallTed]
q+
16:52:01 [ora]
ack TallTed
16:52:04 [pchampin]
scribe+
16:52:29 [pchampin]
TallTed: we can take a poll among ourselves
16:53:01 [TallTed]
AndyS: wonders about semantics TF in particular
16:53:13 [TallTed]
... and approvals of document changes
16:53:16 [ora]
q?
16:53:23 [pfps]
semantics is at least partly waiting for approved test cases
16:53:54 [TallTed]
ora: will be away third week of August. knows others will be away at least part of August.
16:54:28 [TallTed]
s/third week/fourth week/
16:54:55 [TallTed]
[group] can take it as it comes
16:55:35 [TallTed]
Zakim, close agendum
16:55:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close agendum', TallTed
16:55:41 [TallTed]
Zakim, close agendum 7
16:55:41 [Zakim]
agendum 7, Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting, closed
16:55:42 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
16:55:52 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:55:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:56:29 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:56:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:58:06 [pchampin]
previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:58:18 [pchampin]
next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/27-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:58:21 [pchampin]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:58:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:58:59 [TallTed]
Zakim, end meeting
16:58:59 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, ktk, pchampin, gkellogg, gtw, niklasl, pfps, Tpt, ora, AndyS, richard_lea
16:58:59 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:59:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:59:35 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:59:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdf-star
16:59:37 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, bye
16:59:37 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
16:59:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: pchampin to investigate hiccups in github actions [1]
16:59:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/07/20-rdf-star-irc#T16-20-24