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16:55:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:56:27 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
16:56:27 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
16:56:35 <Matt_King> present+
16:56:49 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
16:57:06 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Review Agenda and Next Meeting Dates
16:57:45 <Matt_King> View agenda at https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ac8829ad-96bc-400b-b46b-81a62c6b12a1/20230719T100000/
16:58:15 <Matt_King> Next CG Meeting: July 27
16:58:16 <Matt_King> Next automation meeting: July 31
17:00:03 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/19-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
17:00:28 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-at
17:00:37 <mmoss> mmoss has joined #aria-at
17:01:07 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
17:01:07 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:01:08 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:02:57 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:09:14 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:09:30 <jugglinmike> Topic: Navigation menu testing
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17:10:04 <lolaodelola> present +
17:12:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: NVDA, when you navigate by list item, it'll even read a nested list. That's surprising to me!
17:12:56 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I just tested on Wikipedia, and it does the same there
17:13:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If they want to do that, that's their prerogative. They aren't mis-speaking, they aren't leaving anything out, either
17:13:52 <jugglinmike> mmoss: No, definitely not!
17:14:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It doesn't seem incorrect to me, though
17:14:40 <jugglinmike> Isa_DC: I will change the results for test number 5
17:14:46 <jugglinmike> present+ Isa_DC
17:14:52 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
17:15:20 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The next conflict has the same root cause
17:15:31 <jugglinmike> Isa_DC: Then I'll resolve it in the same way
17:15:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Okay, the next conflict is Test 33, command "Up arrow"
17:17:44 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: the AT responses match, but Murray reported "no output", while Isa_DC reported "correct output"
17:19:12 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I was confused because it didn't convey the list boundary in the same way from when you exit at the end of the list
17:19:39 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Got it. We think this is actually acceptable, so I'll edit the verdict to match Isa_DC
17:20:28 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The next four conflicts are fundamentally the same, just with a different command
17:20:55 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: ...so I'm going to update mmoss's verdicts in the same way
17:21:42 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: This test has assertions for both "list boundary" and the list role. Do we need both?
17:22:17 <jugglinmike> Isa_DC: I think we should keep the assertion about the list role and remove the assertion about the list boundary
17:22:26 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I agree
17:24:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Vispero has already expressed some concerns about this Test Plan, so we'll probably have to make a new version
17:24:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But everything is testing on this plan, and there are no longer any assertions, so I think we can promote it to Candidate. We should just expect to make that new version, soon
17:26:25 <mmoss> present+
17:26:26 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I volunteer to test Disclosure navigation menu for VoiceOver and Safari
17:28:55 <jugglinmike> Topic: VoiceOver support for binary states
17:29:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: James_Scholes and Sam_Shaw and I had a conversation about how we want to negotiate with Apple around how binary "off" states are spoken
17:30:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We thought the first best step to take would be to look across a variety of elements that have binary states associated with them and look at how VoiceOver treats them, both in native Mac apps and on the web
17:31:11 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Here's my research so far https://www.dropbox.com/s/pnnt6c0kkfroq6r/VoiceOver%20Binary%20State%20Control%20Tests.xlsx?dl=0
17:31:24 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: macOS toggle button--I could not find a native macOS toggle button
17:31:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: There were some things reported as toggle buttons, like in the TV app, but that was only in their label
17:32:13 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I found others that actually behaved more like radio buttons
17:32:35 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: That is: you couldn't turn them off by pressing them.
17:32:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So both of those are situations which probably shouldn't be described as toggle buttons at all
17:33:03 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: That's right. That's why I didn't include them
17:33:23 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I also don't have any examples of an iOS disclosure
17:33:50 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: They definitely exist, but I need to do more searching
17:35:55 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: The Mac is pretty consistent in that a lot of the time, it either has an "off" state explicitly, or even if it doesn't, it re-announces the control once you've actually activated.
17:36:18 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I believe the only control that exhibits the silence which precipitated this research is the toggle button
17:37:42 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I didn't test the unchecking of radio buttons since that would go against the way radio buttons are supposed to be used (even though you can do that with some radio buttons on the web)
17:38:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Can you attach this report to a GitHub Issue? From there, we can talk a bit about how we want to discuss this with James Craig
17:38:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It does seem that, at least for default verbosity, it could be a reasonable expectation that "off" states are spoken when reading
17:39:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: e.g. "not checked", "not pressed", "not selected"....
17:39:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. This is great--thank you, James_Scholes!
17:40:42 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I'll fill in the rest of the results as I can, and I'll write up a summary in a GitHub Issue
17:40:54 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing of mode switching
17:41:35 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/965
17:42:05 <jugglinmike> GitHub issue title: "Initial Mode Switching Exploration"
17:42:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ultimately, what we want to come out of this with is an approach to how we're going to test mode switching with JAWS and NVDA
17:42:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: One question: Are they separate tests?
17:42:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And how do we build this into the plan?
17:43:19 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: This is quite long and raised questions about mode switching
17:43:53 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: If we have a test with, say, 5 commands, and we only want to include mode switching for one command, we can't do that without expanding the test into multiple tests
17:44:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: That raises concerns about the number of tests in a plan. If we were to add every new test that I proposed (which is far from a given), we'd be growing already-large Test Plan (from 76 tests to 90 tests)
17:45:00 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: And that makes it even more onerous for testers
17:45:20 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: There are still more questions. What is the scope of the mode switching functionality that we want to test?
17:45:52 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Do we want to test only that mode switching occurs when we expect it to? Or do we also want to test that an unexpected mode switch does not occur?
17:46:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We could add a mode switch to the list of "undesirable behaviors"
17:46:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That way, we wouldn't have to constantly assert that it does not hapeen
17:46:28 <jugglinmike> s/hapeen/happen/
17:46:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But it does feel weird to have an assertion like, "the mode did not change"
17:49:10 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: We're testing with defaults, but we feel that having the screen reader enter interaction mode in some cases could actually be quite harmful to screen reader users because it encourages accidents
17:50:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think if we told them to not change the mode when you press the "down arrow" key, that might be going a bit beyond the scope of ARIA-AT
17:50:57 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I'm not sure that there's a significant difference between asserting that something should happen and that something should NOT happen
17:51:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've thought of the distinction being this: if you're a web developer, and you've coded something in a particular way using ARIA, what you need is a predictable experience. I guess that kind of moves into the usability space
17:52:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If people learn that there's some reading you can do that isn't reversible...
17:52:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, the more I think about this, I'm not so sure.
17:54:17 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: For me, it doesn't feel like we're crossing any line in the tests to require that the mode must be retained
17:55:01 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Let's say you manually switch to interaction mode, then you tab into this combobox, and then you leave the combobox. In that case, you remain in interaction mode
17:55:33 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think asserting against *That* behavior would be going too far
17:57:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that the logical next step is to explore what would be the consequences and requirements (both at the test-writing level and the system level) to be able to add those two capabilities into the Test Plans
17:58:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I made a note to myself to add an issue and put it on next week's agenda
17:58:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think you (James_Scholes) should go ahead with exploring it on the test-writing side
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17:58:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But the work may go beyond what we can/should manage with a single issue
17:59:29 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I'll think about this, we'll talk about it, and we'll talk about it more
17:59:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It may mean the abandonment of the CSV format
18:00:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We put off developing a tool for test composition in favor of just using Excel. We may need to revisit that decision
18:00:43 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Perhaps
18:01:03 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:01:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jugglinmike, Isa_DC, James_Scholes, mmoss
18:01:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:01:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/19-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:13 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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