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14:50:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:50:51 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:50:51 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:51:30 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Proposal for refactoring the principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata.
14:51:51 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ We will meet again on August 24, 2023.
14:52:04 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
14:52:10 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:52:17 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
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14:58:26 <kersc> present+
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15:01:38 <wendyreid> nt+
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15:01:46 <gautier> present+
15:01:53 <Naomi> present+
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15:03:14 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:03:21 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:03:21 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Proposal for refactoring the principles document of User experience guide for accessibility metadata. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
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15:03:39 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
15:03:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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15:04:19 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Overview - editors finished their edits and Matt cleaned everything up.
15:04:46 <mgarrish> present+
15:04:54 <Chris> present+
15:05:05 <CharlesL> … objective add flexibility.  added categories and examples.
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15:05:27 <CharlesL> … Two new sections 4.1 Supports NonVisual reading.
15:05:48 <CharlesL> … 4.2 Pre-recorded audio
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15:06:06 <CharlesL> … simplification 4.7 Conformance
15:06:32 <CharlesL> … improvements to 4.6 Hazards
15:06:55 <CharlesL> … then added 4.8 Accessibility Summary.
15:07:33 <CharlesL> gautier:  support nonvisual reading,
15:07:36 <CharlesL> … Indicates whether all content required for comprehension can be consumed in text and therefore is fully available to assistive technologies and reading system text-to-speech functionality.
15:07:36 <CharlesL> This field answers whether nonvisual reading is possible, not possible, or unknown.
15:07:36 <CharlesL> Digital publications with essential content included in non-textual form (such as graphs, tables or equations presented as images, videos, etc.) must include textual alternatives to ensure that users reading with other senses than sight (mainly auditory and tactile) have access to the same information as visual readers. These textual alternatives can include extended descriptions, transcripts, captions, etc. depending on the nature of
15:07:36 <CharlesL> the nonvisual content.
15:08:21 <CharlesL> … examples
15:08:33 <CharlesL> … The examples are provided as lists of possible descriptive and compact explanations for flexibility of adoption.
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15:09:03 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:09:04 <CharlesL> q?
15:09:16 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:10:23 <CharlesL> George: Matt harmonized the language. In conformance I have single statements on each aspect then I have a paragraph style where things are concatenated.  We should be consistent between compact / descriptive.
15:10:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:10:59 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:11:02 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: This seems to be editorial changes which we can address in an editors call.
15:11:51 <CharlesL> gautier: new section added between computer generated vs. human pre-recorded audio.
15:11:54 <CharlesL> … 4.2 Pre-recorded audio
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15:12:09 <CharlesL> … Indicates the presence of pre-recorded audio and specifies if this audio is standalone (an audiobook), accompanies text (embedded audio and video clips), or represents an alternative to the text (synchronized text-audio playback).
15:12:09 <CharlesL> Audiobooks created for mainstream use provide important access for many users with disabilities even though they are not accessible to all. As they grow in popularity, audiobooks may provide more accessibility options in the future.
15:12:09 <CharlesL> Some publications provide audio (including in video) in addition to text. In this case, it is important that the user gets informed as they may not be able to access all contents of the book.
15:12:09 <CharlesL> Some publications provide pre-recorded audio with text synchronization. They are known for providing rich accessibility as pre-recorded audio normally has fewer pronunciation errors than computer-generated speech. Users with hearing impairments still can access the full content of these books.
15:13:08 <CharlesL> … https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#example-descriptive-explanations-0: Descriptive explanations
15:13:08 <CharlesL> 	•	Audiobook with no text alternative.
15:13:08 <CharlesL> 	•	Contents available as complementary audio and text.
15:13:08 <CharlesL> 	•	All the content is available as pre-recorded audio synchronized with text.
15:13:19 <CharlesL> … https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#example-compact-explanations-0: Compact explanations
15:13:19 <CharlesL> 	•	Audio only.
15:13:19 <CharlesL> 	•	Complementary audio and text.
15:13:19 <CharlesL> 	•	Synchronized audio and text.
15:13:42 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:13:58 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:14:21 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:14:48 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: added 4.6 Hazards
15:14:58 <CharlesL> … Identifies any potential hazards (e.g., flashing elements, background sounds, and motion simulation) that could afflict physiologically sensitive users.
15:14:59 <CharlesL> Unlike other accessibility properties, the presence of hazards can be expressed either positively or negatively. This is because users search for content that is safe for them as well as want to know when content is potentially dangerous to them.
15:14:59 <CharlesL> This group should always be displayed. Indicate that no metadata is provided if that is the case.
15:15:24 <CharlesL> … https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#example-descriptive-explanations-4: Descriptive explanations
15:15:32 <CharlesL> … https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#example-compact-explanations-3: Compact explanations
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15:16:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:16:12 <Naomi> q+
15:16:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:17:32 <CharlesL> Naomi: auto identification, of huge # of titles.  assests without audio its easy.  For titles with audio there is no "Unknown" is there
15:17:41 <CharlesL> q+
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15:18:05 <gpellegrino> q+
15:18:17 <CharlesL> … how do you adjust specific flashing vs. unknown audio sound hazards etc.
15:18:27 <AvneeshSingh> ack cha
15:19:06 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:19:56 <CharlesL> Charles we do have NoFlashingHazard and NoMotionSimulationHazard and not including sound hazard should be the same as "unknown" for sound.
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15:20:32 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:20:55 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Should we add a specific example for Naomi's issue here on whether something has a sound hazard or not.
15:21:43 <CharlesL> Naomi: We don't include a lot of multimedia.  but we may need to have something to listen to everything.  which is time consuming and costly.
15:21:48 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:21:57 <CharlesL> q+
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15:22:34 <CharlesL> … the spec doesn't give guidance on this at all. for an unknown state.
15:23:09 <CharlesL> George: Could a processor go through and determine if there is a loud sound.
15:23:12 <CharlesL> q?
15:23:31 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:24:00 <mgarrish> q+
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15:24:57 <AvneeshSingh> ack ch
15:25:50 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:25:51 <CharlesL> Charles: I think its possible to prescan content for hazards with AI for publishers.
15:25:57 <CharlesL> q+
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15:26:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:26:19 <CharlesL> Matt: we don't have a standard for audio hazards too big of an unknown.
15:26:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
15:26:57 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Yes thats true EPUB 1.1 no definite way to define.  This guide is to interpret the metadata.  Little bit of guidance.
15:27:04 <AvneeshSingh> ack ch
15:27:32 <mgarrish> q+
15:27:46 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:28:06 <CharlesL> Charles: the accessibilitySummary could augment this "Where this SoundHazard occurs".
15:28:38 <CharlesL> Matt: This metadata is very vague. maybe something for the editors to dig into.
15:28:44 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:29:14 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: 4.8 Accessibility summary
15:29:26 <CharlesL> … Free text.
15:29:28 <CharlesL> … Provides a description of the accessibility that complements, but does not duplicate, the other discoverability metadata.
15:29:28 <CharlesL> It is a free-form field that allows authors to describe the additional information to the accessible properties of the resource.
15:29:28 <CharlesL> Due to its nature, no specific processing of the content is required; it is sufficient to extract the text from the metadata and display it to end users.
15:29:28 <CharlesL> 
15:29:56 <CharlesL> … https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#example-an-example-accessibility-summary: An example accessibility summary
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15:30:13 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:30:16 <CharlesL> q+
15:30:25 <AvneeshSingh> ack ch
15:31:22 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:31:37 <CharlesL> Charles: editor note making the examples titles consistent not just "Compact Example" for all the various flavors.
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15:32:05 <CharlesL> George: 4.7 Conformance
15:32:29 <CharlesL> … Conformance info was too complicated. A/AA WCAG EPUB etc.  make a real simple statement.
15:33:17 <CharlesL> … EPUB accessibility 1.0 or 1.1 either conforms to the recommended AA, or it conforms to the specification leave out "At the Recommended Level".
15:33:31 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: Identifies whether the digital publication meets internationally recognized conformance requirements for accessibility.
15:33:31 <CharlesL> Conformance metadata often uses terminology that most people will not understand, and therefore https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#conf-statements should be provided when EPUB accessibility and WCAG levels are identified.
15:33:31 <CharlesL> If a publication identifies that there are accessibility problems, the statement should indicate that there are known accessibility limitations. If the publication does not include a conformance claim, the statement should indicate that conformance could not be determined.
15:33:31 <CharlesL> In many cases, people will want to know more about the conformance and certification of the publication. The detailed conformance and certification information should be included within the "https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#additional-accessibility-information."
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15:36:24 <CharlesL> George: Tricky thing. with EAA there are exceptions if there is a small company / undue burden, ONIX will get fields for this.  If the publisher is not bound the the accessibility requirements what this note covers.
15:36:25 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:36:50 <CharlesL> gpellegrino:  4.7.1 Conformance statements
15:37:40 <CharlesL> …The following list explains the meaning of each recommended conformance statement.
15:37:40 <CharlesL> This publication meets accepted accessibility standards.
15:37:40 <CharlesL> The publication contains a conformance claim that it meets WCAG 2 Level AA, but no evaluator information is provided.
15:37:40 <CharlesL> This publication meets minimum accessibility standards.
15:37:42 <CharlesL> The publication contains a conformance claim that it meets WCAG 2 Level A, but no evaluator information is provided.
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15:38:46 <CharlesL> … see https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#conf-statements for the entire list
15:39:09 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:39:19 <mgarrish> q+
15:39:32 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:39:51 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: do you all agree with "meets accepted accessibility standards.", "is certified to meet accepted accessibility standards"
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15:40:07 <CharlesL> Matt: does this get to self certified the difference between.
15:40:47 <CharlesL> George: with you are 3rd party certified then this would be "certified"
15:40:48 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:41:18 <CharlesL> Matt: certified one is when there is 3rd party.  We need to update those definitions then.
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15:42:41 <CharlesL> George: I have inserted examples an expandable HTML details then it lists in a compact form each feature of conformance. then I concatendated this all into a paragraph which is more readable then in the AAE as the final example.
15:43:15 <CharlesL> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#example-additional-accessibility-information-shown-as-individual-statements: Additional Accessibility Information shown as individual statements
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15:44:49 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:45:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 looks useful
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15:46:11 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:46:22 <CharlesL> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated#example-unknown-accessibility-conformance: Unknown accessibility conformance
15:46:47 <AvneeshSingh> q?
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15:47:05 <Naomi> q+
15:47:15 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:47:51 <gpellegrino> q+
15:48:35 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:48:36 <gpellegrino> q-
15:49:00 <CharlesL> Naomi: We have examples for meets and self certified, and micro publishers.  This file should be one for no info
15:49:27 <gpellegrino> q+
15:49:45 <mgarrish> CharlesL: how are we going to get the information about a micro-publisher? is that in the summary? seems like it should be in a note because we won't have that information
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15:50:03 <CharlesL> Charles: where does this information come from about micro publishers not needed about a11y
15:50:07 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:50:29 <CharlesL> George: this is now in the new ONIX fields.
15:50:38 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:51:02 <Naomi> q+
15:51:37 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: Numbers are correct, this is request for the Federation of European publishers since there may be fines.  So it will be important to tell this info to the end user.
15:51:42 <CharlesL> q+
15:51:50 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
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15:52:07 <gpellegrino> q+
15:52:20 <CharlesL> Naomi: In addition to pub size, what about book types Children's pictures books.
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15:53:31 <AvneeshSingh> ack charl
15:53:35 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: we checked this to the exemption, micro enterprise, and others like comics, children's those publications should be done at State of the art not part of the codes.
15:54:16 <gpellegrino> q+
15:54:26 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:55:01 <CharlesL> Charles: we need to make clear that this information can only be displayed if you also have the ONIX feed.  could be included in the a11y summary.
15:55:23 <mgarrish> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2569
15:55:28 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: ONIX it is already there, in EPUB metadata we will see if we can add it.
15:55:37 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:55:44 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues
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15:56:07 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:56:07 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- We will meet again on August 24, 2023. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:56:08 <CharlesL> … Editors will have one call to improve it before out next meeting.
15:56:12 <mgarrish> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/175
15:57:21 <CharlesL> Matt: folks to have a look at Publications that don't meet accessibility requirements #2569, and Define EU conformance exemption metadata #175
15:57:21 <CharlesL> 
15:57:21 <CharlesL> 
15:57:52 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: please provide more feedback.
15:58:02 <CharlesL> … thanks all.
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15:58:36 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
15:58:57 <CharlesL> present+ George
15:59:00 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-pcg-a11y-minutes.html CharlesL
15:59:09 <AvneeshSingh> thanks charles
15:59:22 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
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16:00:22 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, bye
16:00:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, kersc, gpellegrino, wendyreid, gautier, Naomi, jamesY, CharlesL, Bill_Kasdorf, mgarrish, Chris, George
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