16:48:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:48:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-aria-irc
16:48:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:48:35 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut_
16:48:43 <spectranaut_> meeting: ARIA WG
16:50:16 <spectranaut_> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2023Jul/0003.html
16:50:16 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:50:16 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/39cnyfep)
16:50:16 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/3z6dyvnx)
16:50:16 <agendabot> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
16:50:17 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC: Request for a combined meeting with APA on Accessibility Notifications.
16:50:19 <agendabot> agenda+ [Could hyperlinks to the current page expose aria-current=page](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/494)
16:50:23 <agendabot> agenda+ [Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957)
16:50:25 <agendabot> agenda+ [Rethink how "hidden" is aria-hidden content?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1951)
16:50:28 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/))
16:50:40 <spectranaut_> agenda?
16:52:07 <spectranaut_> remove item 8
16:52:43 <spectranaut_> chair: spectranaut_
16:56:26 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:01:20 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:01:25 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
17:01:26 <jaunita_george> jaunita_george has joined #ARIA
17:01:46 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:01:46 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://tinyurl.com/39cnyfep) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:01:49 <Adam_Page> present+
17:02:07 <jaunita_george> present+
17:02:10 <jaunita_george> q+
17:03:01 <pkra> present+
17:03:17 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: a few issues from giacomo-petri
17:03:22 <Adam_Page> ... #1981
17:04:29 <Adam_Page> scotto: raises an interesting quirk: since the title attribute can provide either a name or a description, in HTML you could use title but _not_ want it to be the accname
17:04:38 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll take assignment
17:04:40 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:04:45 <scotto> present+
17:04:58 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: will skip the next one
17:05:04 <Adam_Page> ... #1973
17:06:32 <Adam_Page> pkra: can we transfer this to practices?
17:06:33 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1973
17:06:35 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: there’s already an issue there
17:06:50 <Adam_Page> jaunita_george: I’ll take a look
17:06:51 <Adam_Page> ... I also have a question about #1948
17:07:17 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
17:07:20 <Adam_Page> ... not sure what the call to action is
17:07:45 <Adam_Page> ... it has a had a default value in the past, but do we not have a default in the newest spec?
17:08:05 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: let’s agenda this
17:08:12 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:08:23 <jaunita_george> agenda+1948
17:08:27 <spectranaut_> zakim, add item https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1948
17:08:27 <Zakim> I don't understand you, spectranaut_
17:08:58 <Adam_Page> ... #1971
17:09:26 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1972
17:09:35 <Adam_Page> ... #1972
17:10:30 <Adam_Page> pkra: let’s decide a milestone. 1.3 or 1.4?
17:10:30 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: we’re trying to close 1.3, so let’s do 1.4
17:10:30 <Adam_Page> ... we’ll agenda it later
17:10:36 <Adam_Page> ... back to #1971
17:11:25 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:12:06 <Adam_Page> pkra: there’s parity for all users here: no implication of the context menu existing
17:12:13 <CurtBellew> present+
17:12:35 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, not sure what value this would bring
17:13:37 <Adam_Page> mario: yes, we have context menus on every object, every list, even in empty places, so this would not be helpful
17:14:00 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: pkra, would you respond on this issue, and maybe close?
17:14:02 <Adam_Page> pkra: yes
17:14:39 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: #184, core-aam
17:15:04 <Adam_Page> ... seems straightforward
17:15:18 <Adam_Page> ... last one, #1970
17:15:29 <Adam_Page> ... scotto, I see you linked this to `aria-controls` issue
17:15:40 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, we’ve discussed this before
17:15:52 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: is someone working on language for that `aria-controls` issue?
17:16:27 <Adam_Page> pkra: needs input from an aam person
17:16:49 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: the `aria-controls` issue was milestoned for 1.3 and this may just be a clarification
17:17:18 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:17:18 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Adam_Page
17:17:23 <Adam_Page> q?
17:17:27 <Adam_Page> ack jaunita_george
17:17:29 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:17:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://tinyurl.com/3z6dyvnx) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:55 <pkra> s/an aam person/an aom person
17:17:57 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1980
17:19:09 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I’ve added scotto to review
17:19:22 <Adam_Page> CurtBellew: I’ll review as well
17:19:42 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’m a little worried that this emphasizes `aria-controls` too much
17:20:35 <Adam_Page> scotto: this doesn’t actually address the issue, let’s work on it offline
17:21:00 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: #1977
17:21:41 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: #1975
17:21:56 <Adam_Page> ... scotto, you already reviewed
17:22:07 <Adam_Page> scotto: yep, this is a good correction
17:22:15 <Adam_Page> pkra: I’ll review
17:22:28 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: #1965
17:22:33 <Adam_Page> ... I left this in draft
17:22:40 <Adam_Page> ... follow up from F2F discussion
17:22:47 <Adam_Page> ... re: accessibility parent/child relationships
17:22:58 <Adam_Page> ... there was some confusion over the definitions that sarah_higley added
17:23:04 <Adam_Page> ... so I’d like some review of that
17:23:11 <Adam_Page> ... and a new term was introduced: accessibility descendant
17:23:33 <Adam_Page> pkra: this is great
17:23:39 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I already added pkra and sarah_higely for review
17:23:43 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll review as well
17:24:13 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page: I’ll review also
17:24:15 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:24:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:27 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: we have a deep dive planned for July 27
17:24:31 <Adam_Page> ... summary role parity issue
17:24:34 <Adam_Page> ... 2 weeks from now
17:24:43 <Adam_Page> ... then we need to schedule a new one: use cases for aria-modal
17:24:48 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1950
17:25:00 <Adam_Page> ... we haven’t scheduled yet because we want to wait for aaronlev to be back
17:25:08 <Adam_Page> ... so we’ll do that when he’s back
17:25:15 <Adam_Page> ... any thoughts on either?
17:25:16 <Adam_Page> ... nope
17:25:16 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:25:16 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- TPAC: Request for a combined meeting with APA on Accessibility Notifications. -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:57 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: PSA: we got an email from APA that they want to collaborate with us on ARIA notifications
17:26:11 <Adam_Page> ... would anyone like to attend that meeting remotely, and need to weigh in on scheduling?
17:26:21 <jaunita_george> I may have to attend remotely
17:26:55 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: okay, stay tuned jaunita_george — there’ll be a draft agenda soon
17:27:19 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:27:19 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Could hyperlinks to the current page expose aria-current=page](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/494) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:33 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: scotto, this is yours?
17:27:42 <Adam_Page> ... we talked about in triage a couple weeks ago
17:28:04 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, I’d like to see if there’s any implementor interest in this
17:29:06 <Adam_Page> ... seems feasible for Apple, at least
17:29:33 <Adam_Page> pkra: I think it’s JAWS that announces in-page anchor links as on the current page
17:29:45 <Adam_Page> ... so, yes, this seems like a good idea
17:30:00 <Adam_Page> scotto: I mainly want this for links inside navigation
17:30:33 <Adam_Page> ... those are typically already designed with a visual indication
17:30:51 <Adam_Page> ... should be a simple change to the spec
17:31:37 <Adam_Page> ... in html-aam for example, I’d add something like “if link contained within an element with role nav and link URL matches href attribute, then implementers SHOULD expose the hyperlink as current page”
17:31:49 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:31:49 <Adam_Page> ... I acknowledge that this can’t always happen, such as in SPAs
17:32:19 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: needs review from jteh, jcraig, and aaronlev
17:32:47 <Adam_Page> pkra: this would be a wonderful example on the editorial side for AT guidance
17:33:06 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll come up with a proposed edit to the spec
17:33:13 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:33:13 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:33:49 <Adam_Page> ... is there anyone here who’d like to discuss this?
17:34:33 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:34:33 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [Rethink how "hidden" is aria-hidden content?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1951) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:23 <Adam_Page> scotto: we need more people to discuss this, there are strong opinions
17:36:12 <Adam_Page> ... JAWS developers recently asked if there are any cases where they can choose to not prune some elements with aria-hidden
17:36:20 <Adam_Page> ... so that they’re still empowered to do good error detection
17:36:32 <Adam_Page> ... aria-hidden has been misused by authors
17:36:46 <Adam_Page> ... inert exists now, and it successfully hides content from all users
17:37:46 <Adam_Page> ... I don’t have a strong proposal here, this is just a conversation starter
17:38:42 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: it’d be a little bit of a shift for browsers and AT vendors
17:38:57 <Adam_Page> scotto: this is kind of what aria-modal does
17:39:08 <Adam_Page> ... outside of Webkit, aria-modal doesn’t actually remove content from the a11y tree
17:39:23 <Adam_Page> ... it just informs the screen reader not to expose it while the user in the dialog
17:40:38 <cyns> q+ to say we'd need to think through how this would impact other AT besides screen readers, and screen-readers that are less sophisticated than NVDA/JAWS
17:41:35 <Adam_Page> ... there is precedent for this, in that some browsers do keep aria-hidden content in the accessibility tree but inform AT not to expose it
17:42:23 <Adam_Page> cyns: we can’t afford to forget about other AT besides screen readers, as well as screen readers that are less sophisticated than NVDA and JAWS
17:42:36 <Adam_Page> scotto: agreed
17:43:37 <Adam_Page> CurtBellew: it sounds like your proposal doesn’t necessarily break what’s out there, it’s more about informing the user what is hidden rather than eliminating it from their visibility altogether
17:44:03 <cyns> q+ to say it's a big, deep change that will require a lot of thought and testing
17:45:45 <Adam_Page> scotto: the intent is to allow for sensible error detection for author misuse of aria-hidden
17:47:39 <Adam_Page> CurtBellew: inert hasn’t been around that long
17:47:48 <Adam_Page> scotto: yeah, only a year or so
17:49:35 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: let’s continue this discussion later
17:49:52 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:49:52 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Adam_Page
17:49:57 <Adam_Page> q?
17:50:12 <Adam_Page> ack cyns
17:50:12 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say we'd need to think through how this would impact other AT besides screen readers, and screen-readers that are less sophisticated than NVDA/JAWS and to say
17:50:15 <Zakim> ... it's a big, deep change that will require a lot of thought and testing
17:50:15 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:50:16 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- 1948 -- taken up [from jaunita_george]
17:50:53 <Adam_Page> jaunita_george: was the default value for aria-atomic removed?
17:50:57 <Adam_Page> ... it does still seem to be in the editor‘s draft
17:51:08 <Adam_Page> ... so wanting to know if a change was discussed
17:51:25 <Adam_Page> scotto: this was something that Anne did in a PR a few months ago
17:51:52 <Adam_Page> ... so, yeah, very recent — it’d be good to track down that PR
17:51:58 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: which PR?
17:52:12 <pkra> 1894 ?
17:52:19 <pkra> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1894
17:53:09 <Adam_Page> scotto: yep, #1894 is the correct PR
17:54:52 <Adam_Page> pkra: Anne removed that it *has* a default value since it’s a computed value based on its ancestors
17:55:07 <Adam_Page> jaunita_george: ah, it‘s a computed value — so then it will need to change in a lot of places
17:55:23 <Adam_Page> ... so this should go into 1.3
17:56:15 <Adam_Page> ... maybe we should explain it a bit better; how does it compute the value?
17:58:38 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:59:42 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
17:59:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, jaunita_george, pkra, scotto, CurtBellew, Francis_Storr
17:59:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:59:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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