15:57:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:57:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-irc
15:57:27 <ktk> rrsagent, bookmark
15:57:27 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-irc#T15-57-27
15:57:35 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230706T120000/
15:57:35 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:57:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Alexiev, Vladimir (alternate: Taelman, Ruben)
15:57:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:57:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Querying nested quoted triples at an unknown depth -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/96
15:57:36 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:57:39 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:57:42 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:57:46 <ktk> Chair: ktk
15:58:21 <rubensworks> rubensworks has joined #rdf-star
15:58:32 <TallTed> present+
15:58:52 <ktk> Regrets: OLassila, EFranconi, DArndt, AZimmermann
15:58:59 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:59:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:59:02 <ktk> present+
15:59:15 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:00:08 <pchampin> present+
16:00:33 <rubensworks> present+
16:00:42 <gtw> present+
16:01:12 <rubensworks> scribe+
16:01:16 <ktk> Scribe rubensworks
16:01:30 <TallTed> s/Scribe rubensworks//
16:01:38 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:01:45 <Tpt> present+
16:01:45 <AndyS> present+
16:02:40 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-Star Working Group Weekly Meeting
16:02:56 <TallTed> Zakim, start meeting
16:02:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:02:58 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), TallTed
16:03:08 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:04:06 <ktk> Regrets: OHartig, PPatel-Schneider
16:04:36 <ktk> Zakim, open topic 1
16:04:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'open topic 1', ktk
16:04:48 <pchampin> zakim, open item 1
16:04:48 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Alexiev, Vladimir (alternate: Taelman, Ruben) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:49 <TallTed> Zakim, first agendum
16:04:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'first agendum', TallTed
16:04:53 <ktk> Zakim, item 1
16:04:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'item 1', ktk
16:05:02 <AndyS> regrets+ gkellogg
16:05:18 <pchampin> Regrets+ OLassila, EFranconi, DArndt, AZimmermann
16:05:29 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:29 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, ktk
16:05:33 <ktk> Zakim, close item
16:05:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', ktk
16:05:36 <ktk> Zakim, close item 1
16:05:36 <Zakim> agendum 1, Scribe: Alexiev, Vladimir (alternate: Taelman, Ruben), closed
16:05:38 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:05:38 <Zakim> 2. Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:05:40 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:05:42 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:42 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:49 <pchampin> q+
16:05:55 <rubensworks> ktk: Any comments on last week's minutes?
16:06:26 <rubensworks> pchampin: I discovered that I closed the conversation when I left last week.
16:06:53 <rubensworks> ... There is also a wrong GH link. Only the link by the scribe-bot is wrong.
16:07:06 <rubensworks> ktk: Should we use the full links instead?
16:07:20 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-rdf-star-minutes.html#x212
16:07:34 <rubensworks> TallTed: Is there a correct link near the wrong one?
16:08:27 <rubensworks> pchampin: The scribe script link is wrong, and I can fix that. The other bot's one seems to be wrong as well, and Gregg put in the correct link. I can fix this mess.
16:09:02 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes
16:09:06 <ktk> +1
16:09:11 <pchampin> +1
16:09:20 <TallTed> +1 upon PAC's fix
16:09:24 <gtw> +1
16:09:29 <rubensworks> +1
16:09:34 <AndyS> +1
16:09:54 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve last week's minutes
16:10:03 <ktk> Zakim, close item 2
16:10:03 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ktk
16:10:08 <ktk> q?
16:10:11 <TallTed> ack
16:10:13 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:10:16 <ktk> Zakim, close item 2
16:10:16 <Zakim> agendum 2, Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-rdf-star-minutes.html, closed
16:10:18 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:10:18 <Zakim> 3. Querying nested quoted triples at an unknown depth -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/96 [from agendabot]
16:10:21 <ktk> zakim, next item
16:10:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Querying nested quoted triples at an unknown depth -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/96 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:38 <pchampin> scribe+
16:10:40 <rubensworks> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/96
16:11:11 <pchampin> rubensworks: in SPARQL-star, it is possible to have top-down access to quoted triples
16:11:59 <pchampin> ... do we want to allow bottom-up access to quoted triples, to be able to query quoted triples of unknown depth?
16:12:18 <pchampin> ... This is not about adding specific syntactical support to SPARQL,
16:12:30 <pchampin> ... more about asking to the group: do we need this? do we want to somehow support it?
16:12:33 <AndyS> q+
16:12:41 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:12:46 <TallTed> q+
16:13:53 <pchampin> AndyS: the problem might be more complex than what's in the issue (which uses the same predicate at  all depths)
16:14:09 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:14:10 <pchampin> ... you might also want to match not down to the end.
16:14:18 <ktk> q+
16:14:47 <pchampin> rubensworks: agree with first point: my first proposal is inspired by property paths,
16:15:10 <pchampin> ... but further down in the issue, I describe a more genetic possible solution (QUOTED keyword),
16:15:23 <ktk> ack TallTed
16:15:25 <pchampin> ... where you don't necessarily to specify the path to the quoted triple
16:15:45 <pchampin> TallTed: I like the initial concept of this being an extension of property paths;
16:15:56 <pchampin> ... feels more intuitive to me than the analogy with GRAPH.
16:16:36 <pchampin> ... But it is a deep issue, requiring significant math-heads.
16:17:04 <pchampin> ... (aside: it is a shame that some people from early RDF are not part of this group)
16:17:46 <pchampin> ktk: [question about the proposal in the issue]
16:18:09 <pchampin> TallTed: there is a strong wish in the community to get all the intermediaries of property paths
16:18:29 <AndyS> q+
16:19:10 <pchampin> ... There was a proposal in the early proposal of property paths, to specify an arbitrary depth,
16:19:28 <pchampin> ... it is implemented in Virtuoso, but I don't know what happened to it in the spec.
16:19:32 <ktk> ack ktk
16:20:02 <pchampin> AndyS: does the charter allows us to make this kind of change?
16:20:13 <pchampin> ... not an errata, definitely a new feature, requires to change the SPARQL data model.
16:20:17 <Souri> I had presented a paper at the KGC 2202 conference related to this and it is being, in principle, discussed for inclusion in the SQL/PGQ standard's next version: https://zenodo.org/record/6511401
16:20:44 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:20:45 <Souri> s/2202/2022/
16:20:45 <pchampin> ... Is it possible? yes. But in scope?....
16:21:02 <rubensworks> q+
16:21:26 <pchampin> ... If we take on this feature, other features will be required as well.
16:21:54 <pchampin> ... The reason it was rejected was a formal objection from some university, it adds much complexity.
16:22:33 <ktk> ack rubensworks
16:22:58 <pchampin> AndyS: [disussion about living standard, that needs to reflect the position of the wider community]
16:23:24 <Souri> q+
16:23:25 <rubensworks> q+
16:23:35 <pchampin> ktk: any of the implementers on the call want to comment?
16:23:35 <ktk> ack Souri
16:24:12 <pchampin> Souri: I call this neighbourhood-aware path, see link to paper above
16:24:33 <pchampin> ... this was not included in PGQ because of complexity issue, but is much discussed at the moment
16:24:55 <pchampin> ... there is a big need for this, and SPARQL property paths is simple and does not provide this
16:25:12 <pchampin> ... it would be nice to have it, if time allows
16:25:27 <TallTed> Is there a link to any SQL/PGQ documentation? I know it will be put behind a paywall when finalized, but maybe there's a draft available?
16:25:40 <pchampin> ... I work with veteran standard people in SQL and PG, they acknowledge that it is a really nice to have
16:25:44 <TallTed> q+
16:25:59 <pchampin> Tpt: I agree this is something we want to think about, but that's complex.
16:26:24 <pchampin> ... Should probably not be a priority at this point, and consider it later if we have time.
16:26:33 <AndyS> SPARQL-dev-cg
16:26:46 <ktk> ack rubensworks
16:27:08 <pchampin> rubensworks: implementation-wise, we experimented with a number of indexing approaches,
16:27:21 <TallTed> s|SPARQL-dev-cg|https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/sparql-dev/|
16:27:34 <pchampin> ... the second proposal in the issue (QUOTED keyword) is easy to support in an index.
16:27:53 <pchampin> s/in an index./in an index,
16:28:12 <pchampin> ... as an extension to existing triple stores.
16:28:41 <pchampin> TallTed: could Souri please share a link to this work on PGQ?
16:28:45 <ktk> ack TallTed
16:29:20 <pchampin> gtw: concur with what has been said: should not be a priority and probably out of scope;
16:29:32 <pchampin> ... but happy to see experiments on this in the SPARQL-dev CG.
16:30:11 <rubensworks> pchampin: Wondering if we have a label for future work?
16:30:29 <TallTed> `deferred` is common
16:31:02 <rubensworks> ktk: I propose everyone to write down what Greggory said in the issue, and link to it in sparql-dev.
16:31:27 <Souri> q+
16:31:38 <pchampin> the label "ms:futurework" looks like a good match
16:31:48 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:31:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:32:00 <rubensworks> AndyS: Ruben, will you write this down in sparql-dev?
16:32:06 <rubensworks> rubensworks: yes.
16:32:27 <AndyS> Issues at  https://github.com/w3c/sparql-dev
16:32:46 <rubensworks> ktk: Ruben will post the issue.
16:33:03 <ktk> Zakim, close item
16:33:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', ktk
16:33:12 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:33:12 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ktk
16:33:19 <ktk> ack Souri
16:33:21 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:33:21 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:34:36 <rubensworks> pchampin: The renaming to sparql-dev has been done. The old URLs of the CG and GH repo redirect.
16:35:07 <rubensworks> ... The public mailinglist already existed, so we created public-sparql-dev-cg instead.
16:35:28 <rubensworks> AndyS: The other one is where all Cfps go.
16:35:35 <rubensworks> pchampin: And other spam.
16:35:57 <rubensworks> ktk: Remaining work is to update all text.
16:36:07 <rubensworks> pchampin: We did some renaming already.
16:36:37 <rubensworks> pchampin: Remaining issues are long-standing issues still to be solved.
16:36:51 <ktk> zakim, next item
16:36:51 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:37:14 <pchampin> q?
16:37:29 <pchampin> q+
16:37:30 <AndyS> q+
16:38:33 <rubensworks> pchampin: We decided to shift the mobile PR from making it mobile-friendly, to just fixing his concrete problems. So I think we can close this PR, but let's wait for Dominik to be present.
16:38:50 <rubensworks> AndyS: He said would provide screenshots.
16:39:07 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:39:07 <pchampin> q-
16:39:31 <rubensworks> s/AndyS/ktk/
16:40:17 <rubensworks> AndyS: What about the problem with echidna in sparql-update
16:40:20 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/actions/runs/5477182667/jobs/9975831813#step:3:575
16:40:26 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:40:26 <rubensworks> pchampin: There is probably a validation issue.
16:40:49 <rubensworks> pchampin: Pointy brackets around an URL.
16:41:39 <rubensworks> pchampin: I noticed last week a credentials issue, but it seems to be resolved.
16:41:50 <rubensworks> AndyS: It's intermittent.
16:42:14 <ktk> Zakim, next issue
16:42:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next issue', ktk
16:42:18 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:42:18 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:42:44 <AndyS> q+
16:43:01 <rubensworks> ktk: Next week I'm not here.
16:43:15 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:43:23 <rubensworks> AndyS: How many people will go to TPAC in person?
16:43:29 <rubensworks> ktk: I booked a hotel; yes.
16:43:43 <pchampin> I will be present in person
16:43:46 <rubensworks> ... Ora is confident he will go.
16:44:16 <TallTed> sadly, insufficient travel budget
16:44:19 <rubensworks> AndyS: Gregg might not be able to.
16:44:34 <Souri> Where is the TPAC being held? When?
16:44:37 <rubensworks> ktk: Not cheap for those coming from the US.
16:44:48 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/
16:45:11 <rubensworks> AndyS: It will be hybrid.
16:45:19 <rubensworks> ... Our slot is on Tuesday.
16:45:33 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6b4775ff-57d7-497a-a36e-c5f2a2810723/
16:45:48 <Souri> Which helps because that way I don't miss any meetings here! :-)
16:46:31 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:46:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:46:38 <ktk> rubensworks: thanks for scribing!
16:47:41 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:47:55 <AndyS> pchampin? Got a minute?
16:48:10 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/07/13-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:48:24 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:48:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:48:46 <AndyS> I'm not seeing an error locall (well, I use the usual 1E/1W about included documents)
16:51:07 <AndyS> Ack
16:51:23 <AndyS> Where?
17:00:31 <pchampin> regrets+ DominikT
17:00:35 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:00:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:01:15 <pchampin> s/<pchampin> +1/<pchampin> <pchampin> +1/
17:01:17 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:01:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:02:14 <pchampin> s/the label "ms:futurework" looks like a good match/<pchampin> the label "ms:futurework" looks like a good match
17:02:29 <pchampin> s/I will be present in person/<pchampin> I will be present in person
17:02:48 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:02:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/06-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:06:06 <pchampin> RRSAgent, bye
17:06:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items