14:11:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:11:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/07/03-coga-irc
14:11:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:11:44 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:11:52 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:11:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/03-coga-minutes.html Lisa
14:12:00 <Lisa> agenda+
14:12:05 <Lisa> agenda+  sign up to scribe https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list
14:12:10 <Lisa> agenda?
14:13:15 <Lisa> agenda order is 8, 1, 2,7
14:13:23 <Lisa> agenda?
14:14:34 <Lisa> q?
14:52:01 <lisa> lisa has joined #coga
15:00:37 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
15:00:50 <lisa> no quarm
15:01:18 <lisa> next item
15:01:28 <lisa> close item 8
15:01:46 <lisa> agenda?
15:01:49 <abbey> abbey has joined #coga
15:02:26 <lisa> topic: look at CTAUR document colaberation
15:04:19 <lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CJhBYRI-zk2rl_mohHZ63xAGZxzpDMxhHhXT66bjFBI/edit#heading=h.9s2myah44bjb
15:06:03 <DavidSwallow> DavidSwallow has joined #coga
15:06:27 <DavidSwallow> present+
15:08:43 <Jennie> present+
15:09:00 <lisa> srcibe: Jקממט
15:09:20 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
15:09:51 <Jennie> (talking about the review of the CTAUR document)
15:10:06 <Jennie> Lisa: I thought we would be adding user needs and requirements
15:10:20 <Jennie> ...I think we can use "COGA suggested user need 1"
15:10:27 <Jennie> ...And some of the comments are actually user needs
15:10:31 <Jennie> ...I started with general comments
15:10:38 <Jennie> ...Those aren't user requirements
15:10:48 <Jennie> ...They say you need to follow WCAG, but also do more
15:11:02 <Jennie> ...I suggested adding a recommendation for Making Content Usable
15:11:09 <Jennie> ...I took a few more examples from Jennie's comments
15:11:27 <Jennie> ...And I put them in as COGA suggested User Needs
15:11:34 <Jennie> ...This looks more like concrete suggestions
15:11:56 <Jennie> ...The Requirement is their format. So when I added a user need I added the requirements needed to meet them
15:12:27 <Jennie> ...Is it easier to have them in the comments, or in the "COGA suggested user need"?
15:13:21 <Jennie> David: Will this need translating from inline comments into Github?
15:13:30 <Jennie> Lisa: That is a conversation I had with Janina
15:13:44 <Jennie> ...They have someone who has volunteered to enter each one as a separate issue into Github
15:13:54 <Jennie> ...They have asked us to make our suggestions extremely concrete.
15:14:04 <Jennie> ...Because of this they want things like "add this user need here"
15:14:18 <Jennie> ...We have to make it clear for the person adding into Github
15:14:39 <Jennie> David: I think the comments are easy to drop in. The suggestions might be a bit more difficult.
15:15:15 <Jennie> Lisa: We thought that originally. When I started commenting, I could see we had threads
15:15:25 <Jennie> ...It will be hard to see what the final draft is, I think
15:15:53 <Jennie> ...We have had to take a step back - right now we are not concerned with what form we give it to APA in
15:16:08 <Jennie> ...Because we are still trying to make sure we have collected everybody's thoughts
15:16:20 <Jennie> ...So we need to see what is easier to do. Maybe we will move them back into comments
15:16:54 <Jennie> ...I think the first issue is collecting the input
15:17:01 <Jennie> ...We have comments in different documents, unfortunately
15:17:08 <Jennie> ...We will have to check that things have been added
15:17:11 <abbey> present+
15:17:14 <Jennie> ...So we will have to look through all the comments
15:20:03 <Jennie> Jennie: my suggestion is breaking tasks down into small chunks per person, and being sure we follow up in a compressed timeline
15:21:04 <Jennie> ...I don't have a preference about inline vs comments, as long as we select one method and keep using it
15:21:11 <Jennie> Abbey: I cannot see the document right now.
15:22:03 <Jennie> Jennie: I can access Github at work
15:22:53 <Jennie> ...and my availability will be spotty over July in terms of participation in concentrated amounts
15:23:57 <lisa> inline (1) or comment (2)
15:24:25 <Jennie> Jennie: 0 - as long as it is consistent
15:24:40 <lisa> 1
15:24:47 <abbey> 1
15:24:50 <DavidSwallow> 2
15:25:15 <Jennie> David: I think the comments help focus the issue. You can browse through them
15:25:30 <Jennie> ...You can go from comment to comment, and work to them
15:25:35 <Jennie> ...You can resolve them when they are done
15:25:41 <Jennie> ...Comments are a kind of unit
15:25:55 <Jennie> ...They are portable - they force you to condense your idea into a block of text
15:26:02 <Jennie> ...It might be hard to tease apart the inline comments
15:26:32 <Jennie> Lisa: the problem is we got stuck getting to the phase of moving them into Github
15:26:45 <Jennie> ...some members couldn't use them
15:27:12 <Jennie> ...since we have 2 to 1, it goes towards the inline
15:27:23 <Jennie> ...We will have to try to make it easy to change into Github comments
15:28:09 <Jennie> ...Let's go through the things that they have, and see if we think we have the suggestions we need
15:28:32 <Jennie> ...Real-time co-editing - their user needs were mainly focused on screen reader users
15:28:46 <Jennie> ...until one about distractions
15:29:14 <Jennie> ...My feeling was that all of Making Content Usable would be useful - we put that at the beginning
15:29:33 <Jennie> ...I am thinking about the stuff we have learned to do in collaborative documents
15:29:47 <Jennie> ...One of the things we have learned is to put instructions at the top
15:29:52 <Jennie> ...People have said that is helpful
15:29:58 <Jennie> ...But I haven't always seen it
15:30:23 <Jennie> ...What problems with real-time editing have you come across?
15:30:32 <Jennie> David: Just like this one.
15:31:44 <Jennie> Lisa: I have opened one of the older documents, that contains comments from previous conversations
15:32:08 <Jennie> ...We have said not to do this in Content Usable, but I think it is a big deal for collaborative documents
15:32:54 <Jennie> ...the use of strange terms
15:33:26 <Jennie> Jennie: I wonder if the terms are caused by the need for something unique, in terms of copyright
15:33:42 <Jennie> David: maybe the mechanics?
15:33:53 <Jennie> Lisa: Going back to the document we are reviewing...
15:34:07 <Jennie> ...It divides it into sections
15:34:21 <Jennie> ...Should there be a general section? Or is that what was in section 1.3 and 2?
15:34:28 <Jennie> David: Do you mean about how to do?
15:35:22 <Jennie> Lisa: I will put in the document within section 2: COGA suggestion - common pitfalls
15:35:32 <Jennie> ...(kept drafting using suggesting mode in the document)
15:37:26 <Jennie> David: Can we preface it with something like "Collaborative tools use processes that are not as a familiar as....they have a set of unique mechanics"
15:37:35 <Jennie> Lisa: (drafts based on this into the document)
15:38:02 <Jennie> David: ties it to collaborative tools
15:38:13 <Jennie> Lisa: (continues drafting in the document)
15:39:20 <Jennie> ...I think this area needs a bit of work
15:39:25 <Jennie> David: This is a good start
15:39:33 <Jennie> ...To present the interactions clearly
15:39:49 <Jennie> Lisa: I think someone said previously they needed the search
15:39:59 <Jennie> ...Like when things are somewhere, but you don't know where
15:41:00 <Jennie> Jennie: there can be different permissions/capabilities of different searches
15:41:10 <Jennie> ...It would be important to expose this to users
15:41:26 <Jennie> Lisa: Knowing how it works - using ands and ors
15:41:31 <Jennie> ...this is important to know
15:41:52 <Jennie> ...For some, if something is in quotes, that can have a different use case
15:42:34 <Jennie> ...Sometimes you can be inundated with terms
15:43:02 <Jennie> David: Is it specific to collaborative tools? Or is it more general?
15:43:13 <Jennie> Lisa: We are listing common pitfalls that we know about
15:43:20 <Jennie> ...Not limited to specific areas
15:44:05 <Jennie> Jennie: I am wondering if we need a section called provide help
15:44:15 <Jennie> ...And then specifics of using search could be under that
15:44:25 <Jennie> David: yes, these are the mechanics of using the tool
15:44:35 <Jennie> Lisa: Then we can add some things under the help
15:44:49 <Jennie> ...(goes back to looking through Issues using W3C Tools and Processes
15:44:56 <Jennie> ...)
15:45:29 <Jennie> ...reading from one commenter saying it is hard to have to learn a new way of thinking to do something like edit
15:45:40 <Jennie> ...(goes back to the document we are editing)
15:46:50 <Jennie> David: maybe expose common features?
15:47:01 <Jennie> Lisa: I have that here in the COGA suggestion - common pitfalls
15:47:24 <Jennie> ...(continues adding into the draft)
15:49:41 <Jennie> Jennie: one of the comments we have is about adding a glossary. Maybe we can add it into the document as suggested text, then resolve that comment?
15:50:03 <Jennie> Lisa: (adds it in to the document)
15:50:40 <Jennie> ...(resolved)
15:52:40 <Jennie> Jennie: thank you. Making sure we add information into the document with suggested text, then resolving the comments will help ensure we are
15:52:56 <Jennie> ...all working within this document the same way
15:53:29 <Jennie> Lisa: (added in the comment about adding information about what is out of scope in the document, then resolved the comment)
15:54:17 <Jennie> ...(continued working through the comments, moving them into the suggested language within the document/inline, then resolving the comments)
15:57:09 <Jennie> (Lisa continued going through the comments, pasting them inline, then resolving the comments)
15:58:23 <Jennie> Lisa: Do we put in something like "add topic, or make sure the topic is clear"?
15:58:39 <Jennie> ...(drafted into the document in section 3)
15:59:36 <Jennie> ...We are not talking to the document authors, we are talking to those making the platforms
15:59:52 <Jennie> ...We know that multi-step processes are difficult
16:00:03 <Jennie> ...Having a link that automatically opens the read me file
16:00:07 <Jennie> ...It will open
16:00:13 <Jennie> ...You can write your instructions
16:00:25 <Jennie> ...Or have a place to add instructions for your reviewers
16:00:32 <Jennie> David: Are you thinking of a specific platform?
16:00:41 <Jennie> Lisa: we sometimes put read me files in
16:01:18 <lisa>  RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:01:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/07/03-coga-minutes.html lisa