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14:44:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:44:44 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:44:55 <ivan> Meeting: Verifiable Credentials Working Group Telco
14:44:55 <ivan> Date: 2023-06-28
14:44:55 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ae05a21b-c065-4e69-8d5e-352a0d391513/20230628T110000/
14:44:55 <ivan> chair: kristina
14:44:55 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-06-28: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ae05a21b-c065-4e69-8d5e-352a0d391513/20230628T110000/
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15:00:16 <hsano> present+
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15:01:16 <brent> apologies, I am having minor technical difficulties, but should be able to join soon
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15:02:38 <ivan> present+ andres, selfissued, tallted, oliver
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15:03:12 <ivan> present+ manu, brent, orie
15:03:20 <ivan> present+ dlongley
15:04:42 <ivan> chair: brent
15:04:44 <pl-asu> scribe+
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15:05:38 <pl-asu> Brent: agenda today is straightforward - intros, work item status update, and shout out to PRs to pay attention to, bulk of meeting on issues.
15:05:43 <kgriffin> present+
15:05:48 <TallTed> present+
15:05:50 <TallTed> q+
15:05:53 <pl-asu> Brent: additions to the agenda or changes
15:06:03 <brent> ack TallTed
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15:06:30 <ivan> present+ jandrieu
15:06:30 <pl-asu> TallTed: if you need his input sooner is better than later because he's connecting from his phone today.
15:06:45 <ivan> present+ kevin
15:06:59 <ivan> present+ dmitri
15:07:21 <Orie> present+
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15:07:54 <pl-asu> Brent: meeting minutes in IRC. Use it ask to speak, etc.
15:08:16 <ivan> present+ nistor
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15:08:40 <ivan> present+ PaulD
15:08:41 <pl-asu> Brent: go to CR v2 at end of Sept. Only 10 wks before TPAC. Have only 10 meetings to wrap everything up for the data model, and as much as possible for other work items.
15:09:14 <pl-asu> Manu: notes there are 18 meetings if we skip July 5th.
15:09:27 <manu> FULL ON PANICING IS OK RIGHT NOW! :P
15:09:38 <manu> q+
15:09:40 <pl-asu> Brent: sharing anxiety and recommends we move expeditiously ;)
15:09:42 <brent> topic: Work Item status updates/PRs
15:09:48 <brent> ack manu
15:09:51 <pl-asu> Brent: manu recognized
15:11:22 <Orie> Vocabulary URLs for terms might change.
15:11:47 <pl-asu> Manu: for VCDM, have discussed through 149, base context getting normative. Orie requesting we might change markers during candidate recommenations. Not controversial. Placeholders URLs must get replaced.
15:12:17 <Orie> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1159
15:12:21 <pl-asu> Orie: GitHub URLs need to be changed, and term defs with issue markers for vocab PR may need changing.
15:12:35 <ivan> present+   GregB
15:13:03 <pl-asu> Manu: other PRs are largely fine but there are a lot of them. Need review within the next 5 days.
15:13:19 <pl-asu> Manu: other PRs that aren't worth mentioning - but do look at them.
15:13:20 <Orie> +1 manu, people should review PRs
15:13:41 <pl-asu> Brent: shout outs for VC-JWT etc. ?
15:13:58 <manu> q+
15:14:08 <brent> ack manu
15:14:12 <pl-asu> Brent:  haven't heard back from horizontal review groups yet but if any editors want to give attention to a PR or two?
15:14:39 <mprorock> +1
15:15:03 <Orie> +1 to defining what a processor will do if normative hashes do not match
15:15:09 <pl-asu> Manu: Jeffrey Askin wanted an issue marker added to #1158 wanted an error message if something doesn't match but Manu nees the text for that, once done #1158 will be merged.
15:15:18 <manu> s/Askin/Yasskin/
15:15:18 <brent> Topic: Issue Discussion
15:15:19 <pl-asu> Brent: any other PR issues?
15:15:35 <pl-asu> Brent: Next topic issue discussions
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15:16:36 <pl-asu> Brent: are things that need work now, things than can be done post-CR, or closed?
15:16:36 <DavidC> present+
15:16:36 <brent> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3Abefore-CR+-label%3A%22pending+close%22+sort%3Aupdated-asc
15:16:36 <pl-asu> Brent: gives URL of issues to be convered today.
15:16:49 <manu> q+
15:16:55 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1048
15:17:00 <pl-asu> Brent: starting with issue #1048
15:17:16 <pl-asu> Manu: Pre-CR ready for PR, on his plate and he'll do it.
15:17:24 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1117
15:17:26 <pl-asu> Brent: #1117 next
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15:17:45 <ivan> q+
15:17:48 <manu> q-
15:17:52 <brent> ack ivan
15:17:52 <pl-asu> Brent: was a glitch with vocab term defs not showing up.  Clicking on the link still seems to have the problem
15:17:56 <selfissued> present+
15:18:09 <Orie> I find the tooling for vocabulary, very hard to contribute too, fwiw.
15:18:22 <Orie> I wish I could be more helpful for this kind of thing
15:18:34 <manu> q+
15:18:36 <pl-asu> Ivan: seems to be a strange 'feature' in GitHub. It's a generated page. Terms are all in the page in GitHub but Manu might have something to comment. Tooling problem?
15:18:44 <manu> q-
15:19:12 <pl-asu> Manu: Pre-CR and needs to be fixed. Assigned to Ivan and Manu
15:19:23 <pl-asu> Brent: makes the assignement to Ivan and Manu.
15:19:28 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1010
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15:20:27 <pl-asu> Brent: #1010 terms of use insufficiently specified. This may be overtaken by events.  Currently at re: ToU is the group decided if there aren't two independent implementations they get moved to the extentsions list (reserved terms table)
15:20:54 <pl-asu> Brent: already marked at risk. Will be closed in the event that these sections are removed. Is that correct?
15:21:09 <manu> you're more or less right as far as I can tell :)
15:21:24 <ivan> present+ vavala
15:21:31 <pl-asu> Brent: marked before CR but not much work until we have to decide. If there is an implementation, great!
15:21:36 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1123
15:22:11 <pl-asu> Brent: #1123 - A PR open that Brent raised, adds Brent as asignee, and marked before CR
15:22:28 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1125
15:22:53 <pl-asu> Brent: #1125 next - Status identical to the last. Part of the same PR #1123 and Brent assigned to it.
15:23:04 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1040
15:23:08 <manu> q+
15:23:22 <brent> ack manu
15:23:35 <pl-asu> Brent:  #1040 next - Guidance on applications on application/ld+json
15:23:48 <pl-asu> Manu: will do this one, dup of another
15:23:49 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1089
15:24:10 <Orie> q+
15:24:16 <brent> ack Orie
15:24:25 <pl-asu> Brent:#1089 - why does context define a DataIntegrityProof RDF class?
15:24:38 <Orie> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1149
15:24:59 <pl-asu> Orie: can't be closed because we need to define additional terms in VC context. Another open PR#1149, similar set of issues. What are we making normative with hashed approach is similar.
15:25:16 <pl-asu> Brent: Before CR label most appropriate and so labelled.
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15:25:32 <pl-asu> Brent: Mike Prorock assigned to it
15:25:36 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/881
15:25:46 <pl-asu> Brent: #881 raised and assigned to Orie
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15:26:15 <pl-asu> Orie: Similar comment to normative context. Impact is on the shape of the graphs. Related to what happens if the hash doesn't match?
15:26:41 <pl-asu> Orie: This property impacts how the resolution of the graph works. Resolving normative context PR should solve this.
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15:27:12 <ivan> q+
15:27:54 <pl-asu> Orie: This #881 - comes from certain JSON-LD key words which are normative.  Different n-quads produced when normalized depending on what key words are in the context file. These will produce different n-quads and force failure of signatures.
15:27:57 <brent> ack ivan
15:28:16 <pl-asu> Ivan: don't understand the clarification.
15:28:31 <Orie> q+ to say it was not normative before
15:29:01 <pl-asu> Ivan: Only problem seen is if you want nice graphs you can't do it because Neo46 is prepared for it.Proof has always been somethign that produces a graph.
15:29:03 <Orie> teh neo4j stuff is just to visualize the problem, its not the problem
15:29:08 <brent> ack Orie
15:29:09 <Zakim> Orie, you wanted to say it was not normative before
15:29:13 <manu> It's not clear what problem you're highlighting, Orie.
15:29:39 <manu> q+
15:29:59 <pl-asu> Orie: Neo4j is not the problem - the problem is the context being normative. If you process data with different contexts which you could do before but normative changes will prevent this.
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15:30:37 <pl-asu> Ivan: still don't understand this.   Know what proofs do and how sigs work. Proof is always a property of the graph.
15:30:42 <brent> ack manu
15:31:13 <pl-asu> Manu: doesn't see the problem either. Perhaps the issuer signs something and the verifier uses a different context the sig will not verify. That's a security feature.
15:31:23 <dlongley> it's normative in the spec already in https://w3c.github.io/vc-data-model/#syntactic-sugar
15:31:29 <Orie> q+
15:32:01 <brent> ack Orie
15:32:08 <pl-asu> Orie: Seems like this is perceive as a proble but it's the way digital signatures work.   That's always been the design problem but it's not clear what that security issue, if signed bytes change the security will fail.
15:32:38 <manu> Huh, ok? I still don't understand the problem... but I'm hearing we can close this once we merge the normative context thing.
15:32:39 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1134
15:32:43 <pl-asu> This issue can be closed when the pull request for normative nature of the context terms is merged.
15:32:49 <dlongley> btw, `proof` and `verifiableCredential` as graphs was already normative via the above link (even before making the context normative)
15:32:53 <Orie> You cannot assume you know what bytes will be signed unless the context value is normative, and issuers and verifiers use the same structure.
15:32:55 <pl-asu> Brent: #1134 - orie?
15:33:35 <pl-asu> Orie: have alread merged pull request to merge RDF classes to credentialstatus  but have had other complaints with other values added.
15:33:45 <manu> q+
15:33:53 <brent> ack manu
15:33:56 <pl-asu> Orie: might leave this open if we want to bundle term defs with VC Data.
15:34:16 <pl-asu> Manu: should bundle this.  This will make developer lives easier.
15:34:29 <pl-asu> Brent: looks like this is before CR
15:34:36 <dlongley> +1 to bundle things we agree make sense for developers to use.
15:34:44 <pl-asu> Orie: volunteers Gabe ;-)
15:35:00 <pl-asu> Gabe: will be take it on.
15:35:11 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1135
15:35:25 <pl-asu> Brent: #1135 - Add VC JWT diagrams to core specification
15:35:34 <Orie> q+
15:35:35 <manu> yes, this can be a post-CR thing
15:35:36 <mprorock> +1 post cr
15:35:40 <pl-asu> Brent: as diagrams are non-normative this is a post-CR
15:35:40 <brent> ack Orie
15:36:19 <pl-asu> Orie: related to date integrity proofs in the core context and need to be understood by implementers. The pictures are one of the most important information we offer.
15:36:42 <shigeya> Is it possible to add "diagram" tag for any issues requests diagrams?
15:37:17 <manu> +1 for diagrams visualizing both securing mechanisms.
15:37:21 <pl-asu> Orie: prefer to see the diagrams upgraded include proof specs that define securing mechanisms.
15:37:23 <manu> (PRs welcome) :)
15:37:38 <pl-asu> Brent: #1029
15:38:00 <Orie> anyone working on JWT want diagrams to show up in the core data model? open a PR.
15:38:14 <pl-asu> Brent: PRs are welcomed!  (Manu encouraged that)
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15:38:28 <selfissued> q+
15:38:35 <Orie> You can always put your text in an issue, and ask an editor to do the PR for it.
15:38:45 <pl-asu> Brent: if anyone has a problem raising a PR ask for help of Brent or anyone to learn how.
15:38:54 <brent> ack selfissued
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15:39:04 <Orie> +1 selfissued
15:39:06 <manu> -1 to not talking about securing in the core spec.
15:39:13 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1029
15:39:17 <pl-asu> Selfissued: reinforced Orie's comment about stuff that should be in the securing spec.
15:39:34 <pl-asu> Brent: #1029  - Orie?
15:39:37 <dlongley> of course, philosophies around external vs. internal securing mechanisms are at odds there -- we should remember they are different things and that may influence approaches.
15:39:53 <manu> q+ to note we don't need to discuss JSON-LD Framing in the core data model.
15:40:14 <pl-asu> Orie: Get mailing list comments into the minutes. Request for support for data integrity selective disclosure  that heavily uses JSON-LD framing.
15:40:28 <ivan> present+ shawn
15:40:30 <brent> ack manu
15:40:30 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note we don't need to discuss JSON-LD Framing in the core data model.
15:40:43 <pl-asu> Orie: We could  consider some of what is happening in that docs. Links to follow.
15:40:51 <Orie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Jun/0165.html
15:41:14 <Orie> Seems like it might be related to competitive framing with ISO mDOc
15:41:21 <pl-asu> Manu: this isn't core data model work, and not needed in the core spec.  If we need to we can point people to the W3C JSON-LD framing.
15:41:33 <pl-asu> Brent: what is the disposition of this issue?
15:41:44 <pl-asu> Manu: can move it to data integrity
15:41:45 <Orie> Here is the the announcement regarding framing https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Jun/0164.html
15:41:59 <pl-asu> Ivan: probably post-CR
15:42:16 <pl-asu> Manu: no.  the algorithms Orie is talking about need to be in pre-CR
15:43:12 <pl-asu> Orie: WG may adopt EDDCSA so it should be in the core data model repo?
15:43:27 <manu> s/EDDCSA/ECDSA-SD/
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15:44:07 <pl-asu> Orie: EDDSA-SD currently only works on VCs  not other JSON-LD objects. If this is what is intended it should stay in core data model
15:44:11 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/991
15:44:22 <pl-asu> Brent: leave as pre-PR
15:44:32 <pl-asu> Brent: leave as pre-CR
15:44:41 <pl-asu> Brent: #991
15:44:53 <pl-asu> Brent: how do we triage this one?
15:44:53 <DavidC> q+
15:45:00 <brent> ack DavidC
15:45:52 <Orie> This the part of ecdsa-sd that only works for W3C JSON-LD VCs. https://github.com/digitalbazaar/ecdsa-sd-2023-cryptosuite/blob/62c76663f81cb6f836efd5f28109ae3ede113e5d/lib/disclose.js#L141
15:46:09 <pl-asu> DavidC: depends is how much left in the core DM.  Wants to change the terminology to "certificate verifiable credential". Certificate can be revoked or the VC can be revoked and status list should be able to distinguish between the two.
15:46:21 <Orie> It is relevant to the previous issue, and comeptitive positioning vs mDoc
15:46:24 <pl-asu> Brent: sounds like it's VC Status List work item
15:46:37 <JoeAndrieu> q+
15:46:43 <pl-asu> DavidC: this is generic, not depending on the revocation status per se.
15:46:44 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:47:24 <pl-asu> JoeAndrieu: issue is related to the core. Appreciates certificate suggestion. Status should just be about the VC. If about cert, should use ghe claim status of the cert.
15:48:16 <brent> q+
15:48:17 <JoeAndrieu> q+
15:48:45 <pl-asu> DavidC: If we work remotely, then we have only VCs, Certs are only relevant f2f. Therefore if in the remote situation you only have the VC but the underlying cert can't be verified
15:49:10 <pl-asu> Brent: Proposes this issue be before CR and allow it to continue within the issue.
15:49:12 <brent> ack brent
15:49:15 <brent> ack JoeAndrieu
15:49:47 <pl-asu> JoeAndrieu: fine with proposal - Re: David's ideas. Cert status? Either a mechanism to check it is there or not.  If it exists you can put it in the claim.
15:49:58 <DavidC> q+
15:50:04 <pl-asu> Brent: encourages conversation to continue in the issue
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15:50:27 <brent> ack DavidC
15:50:31 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1145
15:50:35 <manu> q+
15:50:44 <Orie> I think we fixed
15:50:44 <brent> ack manu
15:50:47 <pl-asu> Brent: to DavidC's question proposed text should be put in the issue
15:50:48 <Orie> close it
15:51:00 <pl-asu> Brent: #1145 -
15:51:05 <Orie> too late, I closed it
15:51:10 <Orie> sry bros
15:51:11 <pl-asu> Manu: can be marked pending closed
15:51:20 <pl-asu> Brent: Orie just closed it. Done!
15:51:25 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1148
15:51:33 <pl-asu> Brent: #1148 Check status privacy
15:52:03 <pl-asu> Brent: person raising it is not a member of the working group. That's great. Perhaps someone here has an idea of the issue?
15:52:25 <Orie> +1 dlongley
15:52:44 <pl-asu> dlongely: issue is in the text in the diagram to change it to may preserve privacy. An editorial change.
15:52:46 <andres> I can take it
15:52:52 <Orie> Suggest changing the text to "might not preserve privacy"
15:53:12 <pl-asu> Brent: andres agrees to take #1148
15:53:12 <brent> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1150
15:53:27 <Orie> q+
15:53:35 <brent> ack Orie
15:53:36 <pl-asu> Brent: # 1150 Orie raised this a few weeks ago. Needs someone assigned and a label
15:53:55 <dlongley> q+
15:53:58 <pl-asu> Orie: If you make v2 presentation and use a v1 you get an error
15:54:22 <brent> ack dlongley
15:54:29 <pl-asu> Orie: need to address in the normative context
15:55:07 <pl-asu> dlongley - should be addressed in the context - it's one line change to be made to the v2 context.
15:55:20 <pl-asu> Brent: assigned to dllongley
15:55:30 <pl-asu> Brent: it's a wrap
15:56:06 <pl-asu> Brent: all of the issues that we have left we have 69 opene issues.
15:56:43 <pl-asu> Orie: correction on scribes part if you make a v2 presentation and us a v1 context you'll get an error.
15:57:14 <pl-asu> Brent: pending close issues be aware!
15:57:21 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
15:57:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been hsano, pl-asu, shigeya, mprorock, ivan, sebastianelfors, cabernet, andres, selfissued, tallted, oliver, manu, brent, orie, dlongley, GregB,
15:57:25 <Zakim> ... Will, kgriffin, jandrieu, kevin, dmitri, nistor, decentralgabe, PaulD, DavidC, vavala, shawn
15:57:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/28-vcwg-minutes.html Zakim
15:57:33 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:57:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #vcwg
15:58:06 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:58:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items