13:56:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:56:57 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-wcag2ict-irc
13:56:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:56:58 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
13:56:58 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
13:56:58 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:57:03 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:57:15 <maryjom> meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:57:30 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:57:30 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
13:57:40 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
13:57:53 <maryjom> Agenda+ Project standup and planning
13:58:06 <maryjom> Agenda+ Survey results: Pixel definition draft review
13:59:41 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:48 <Chuck> present+
14:00:08 <maryjom> present+
14:01:27 <shadi> shadi has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:27 <shadi> present+
14:02:52 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:02 <ShawnT> present+
14:03:02 <maryjom> regrets: Chris Loiselle, Phil Day, Loïc Martínez Normand, Mike Pluke, Thorsten Katzmann, Bryan Trogdon
14:03:12 <olivia> olivia has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:15 <FernandaBonnin> FernandaBonnin has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:03:19 <olivia> present+
14:03:56 <maryjom> zakim, pick a scribe
14:03:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose olivia
14:03:56 <Chuck> zakim, pick a scribe
14:03:57 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose olivia
14:03:59 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
14:04:08 <FernandaBonnin> present+
14:04:33 <Chuck> Thanks Olivia!
14:04:36 <olivia> scribe+ Olivia
14:04:40 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:18 <Devanshu> present+
14:05:18 <Chuck> nononononononononono.  And no.  Don't run a meeting and scribe.
14:05:53 <olivia> zakim, next item
14:05:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:06:56 <olivia> maryjom: Announcements - Work slowly progressing. Lot of people out from sub groups.
14:07:10 <olivia> maryjom: Did get surveys out this week
14:09:35 <olivia> dmontalvo: Line and dotted line fix done
14:10:17 <olivia> dmontalvo: Michael is still working on document changes. Let Mary Jo when to merge.
14:10:19 <olivia> zakim, next item
14:10:21 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Project standup and planning -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:10:22 <maryjom> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/13/views/2
14:10:40 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:11:01 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:11:45 <olivia> maryjom: We are heavily working on Reflow with open surveys. Make sure you look at other issues with questions. Address concerns as well as proposing content.
14:12:21 <bruce_bailey> zakim, agenda?
14:12:21 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
14:12:21 <Zakim> 2. Project standup and planning [from maryjom]
14:12:21 <Zakim> 3. Survey results: Pixel definition draft review [from maryjom]
14:13:26 <olivia> maryjom: Just finished PR for Closed Sub-group. Look for email. Doing similar for text command. PR will hopefully be finished by EOD. May push off meeting tomorrow.
14:14:13 <olivia> maryjom: Once we get in reflow in I am going to ask AGWG to approve for publication
14:14:51 <mitch11> mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
14:14:55 <mitch11> present+
14:15:29 <olivia> zakim, next item
14:15:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Survey results: Pixel definition draft review -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:15:40 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/162
14:15:52 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-CSS-pixels/results
14:16:31 <olivia> maryjom:1. Review and comparison of Note 1 & 2 in proposal 1 with Note 1 in proposal 2
14:16:36 <Sam> Sam has joined #wcag2ict
14:16:45 <Sam> present+
14:16:47 <olivia> maryjom: Slight preference with P2
14:19:04 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:19:27 <olivia> maryjom: I proposed a amalgamation of the two
14:19:35 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:20:00 <Chuck> q+
14:20:08 <olivia> bruce_bailey: I like P1 because of direct reference to CSS reference pixel
14:20:15 <Chuck> ack Ch
14:20:41 <olivia> Chuck: If it is not needed, would that mean you prefer Option 2?
14:20:51 <olivia> bruce_bailey: yes
14:20:59 <mitch11> q+
14:21:18 <maryjom> What exists in WCAG 2.2 for CSS pixel definition:
14:21:25 <maryjom> visual angle of about 0.0213 degrees
14:21:36 <maryjom> A CSS pixel is the canonical unit of measure for all lengths and measurements in CSS. This unit is density-independent, and distinct from actual hardware pixels present in a display. User agents and operating systems should ensure that a CSS pixel is set as closely as possible to the CSS Values and Units Module Level 3 reference pixel [css3-values], which takes into account the physical dimensions of the display and the assumed viewing distan[CUT]
14:21:45 <maryjom> be determined by content authors).
14:22:22 <bruce_bailey> permalink: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-CSS-pixels/results#xq1
14:22:32 <bruce_bailey> opps
14:22:39 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-css-pixels
14:23:03 <bruce_bailey> s/permalink: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-CSS-pixels/results#xq1/permalink
14:23:17 <Sam> q+
14:23:26 <bruce_bailey> s/permalink: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-CSS-pixels/results#xq1/ permalink
14:23:27 <olivia> maryjom: To answer question, there is already a link to that. Maybe that changes my proposal a little bit.
14:23:44 <bruce_bailey> s/opps/
14:24:23 <maryjom> Note 1: Non-web software and its accompanying platform software do not use CSS pixel measurements. Therefore, platform-defined density-independent pixel measurements which approximate the CSS reference pixel should be used. Examples of platform-defined density-independent pixel measurements include: points (pt) in iOS and macOS, density-independent pixels (dp) for Android, and effective pixels (epx) for Windows.
14:24:55 <FernandaBonnin> q+
14:25:39 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:25:46 <bruce_bailey> +1 for combination
14:27:18 <olivia> mitch11: I like "approximate" - the pixels aren't all to the hundredth place. I see that you included Note 2. I think it helps us cover all the bases.
14:27:27 <maryjom> ack sam
14:27:51 <olivia> mitch11: Is EPX actually defined?
14:28:15 <olivia> Sam: EPX is defined in Microsoft documentation
14:28:46 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
14:28:47 <olivia> Sam: I like note 1, but note 2 still complicated.
14:29:28 <Sam> 1/96 of an inch px
14:29:28 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:29:29 <mitch11> q+
14:29:42 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:29:57 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:30:38 <bruce_bailey> +1 for "approximate"
14:30:50 <FernandaBonnin> q+
14:30:56 <Sam> THe meeting ended?
14:31:00 <Chuck> yep seems so
14:31:04 <Chuck> going back in.
14:31:32 <dmontalvo> -me needs to go for another meeting. Double-checking if you are able to continue without me
14:31:40 <maryjom> my meeting went away.
14:31:55 <FernandaBonnin> same, and I cannot join again?
14:31:56 <Sam> A meeting host or co host needs to join and let people in the meeting
14:32:00 <olivia_> olivia_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:32:04 <Chuck> I'm trying to join, but not letting me.
14:32:12 <mitch11> what bruce said, same issue for me
14:32:34 <Chuck> We could jump on another zoom, but we really ought not put the link in irc.
14:32:55 <Sam> I am also unable to join.  it says the meet host has another meeting
14:33:10 <shadi> jump to https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag
14:33:26 <Chuck> +1 for ag zoom
14:35:44 <mitch11> q+
14:35:52 <maryjom> ack FernandaBonnin
14:36:24 <olivia> FernandaBonnin: I do not have problem with word approximate. Should verify examples.
14:36:48 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:37:58 <olivia> mitch11: I have verified for iOS and Android. For Mac and Windows we should re-verify. Matter of whether viewing distance is reasonable.
14:38:28 <maryjom> q?
14:38:30 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:38:35 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:39:37 <olivia> bruce_bailey: Do we want to try and ping guy who has commented on contrast and pixels? Or anyone on CSS group?
14:40:49 <maryjom> Proposed note 1: Note 1: Non-web software and its accompanying platform software do not use CSS pixel measurements. Therefore, platform-defined density-independent pixel measurements which approximate the CSS reference pixel should be used. Examples of platform-defined density-independent pixel measurements include: points (pt) in iOS and macOS, density-independent pixels (dp) for Android, and effective pixels (epx) for Windows.
14:40:51 <bruce_bailey> yes, Chris Lilley
14:41:32 <maryjom> Poll: Are you all ok with Note 1, provided the examples given do approximate the CSS pixel for the given platforms.
14:41:49 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:41:51 <olivia> +1
14:41:52 <mitch11> +1
14:41:53 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:41:57 <ShawnT> +1
14:41:57 <Devanshu> +1
14:42:01 <maryjom> +1
14:42:05 <Sam> +1
14:43:19 <maryjom> Draft resolution: Incorporate Note 1, as above, provided the examples given do approximate the CSS pixel for the given platforms.
14:43:43 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:43:43 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:43:45 <olivia> +1
14:43:46 <mitch11> +1
14:43:47 <maryjom> +1
14:43:51 <ShawnT> +1
14:43:51 <Sam> +1
14:44:02 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Incorporate Note 1, as above, provided the examples given do approximate the CSS pixel for the given platforms.
14:44:14 <mitch11> q+
14:44:17 <maryjom> Note 2: A platform might define a density-independent pixel, yet not document it publicly. On a platform with both a web browser and non-web software, it is possible to obtain the density-independent pixel by observing a web page element whose size in CSS pixels is known.
14:44:19 <olivia> maryjom: Onto note 2
14:44:24 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:44:45 <olivia> mitch11: For brevity I think we can leave out
14:44:56 <bruce_bailey> i am also not a fan of note 2, +1 to sam earlier
14:45:40 <maryjom> Draft resolution: Do not include note 2.
14:45:47 <Sam> +1
14:45:48 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:45:48 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:45:51 <olivia> +1
14:45:56 <mitch11> +1
14:46:03 <maryjom> +1
14:46:04 <ShawnT> +1
14:46:12 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Do not include note 2.
14:46:53 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-CSS-pixels/results#xq2
14:47:38 <olivia> maryjom: May not finish this today, another one where and amalgamation has been proposed.
14:48:01 <olivia> maryjom: stong preference for P2, but there is a variation as well that people may like.
14:50:21 <olivia> maryjom: Mitch came up with a proposal that combines and slight edits
14:51:37 <olivia> mitch11: My proposal is half of P1 and half of P2
14:53:39 <olivia> mitch11: All other proposals getting at using the calculation. We want to say use this calculation. Not clear which is the "do it" and which is the background explanation. All word-smithing.
14:54:10 <olivia> maryjom: A little more time to see how Olivia's edits could work into Mitchell's
14:54:37 <mitch11> q+
14:54:55 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:55:03 <bruce_bailey> q+ to request surveys re-open
14:55:26 <bruce_bailey> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:55:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html bruce_bailey
14:55:39 <olivia> mitch11: The word "optimal" is not optimal. It implies too much and raises questions. Otherwise all a matter of whatever is clearest.
14:56:01 <maryjom> q?
14:56:39 <olivia> maryjom: We will do word-smithing offline.
14:57:11 <maryjom> Poll: Do you have an issue with Mitch's proposal?
14:57:20 <olivia> No issues other that edits
14:57:30 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:57:38 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:57:38 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to request surveys re-open and to
14:57:53 <Sam> is complicated.  But if the group wants it in we need to make it as clear as possible
14:58:32 <olivia> maryjom: Will make new survey to keep working these
14:58:48 <olivia> maryjom: Two other surveys open, please take a look
15:00:20 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
15:00:27 <olivia> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html olivia
15:01:12 <olivia> zakim, bye
15:01:12 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Chuck, maryjom, shadi, ShawnT, olivia, Daniel, FernandaBonnin, Devanshu, bruce_bailey, mitch, Sam
15:01:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:01:23 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:01:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items